Pts & h&h!

[Evie91]

Likely to be controversial but this is has bugged me about this forum for a while and a comment on another thread has prompted me to post!
My question is; why are there so many users on here who advocate pts for horses that are no longer as useful as they once were?
I know horses are expensive but I do struggle with the prevailing attitude on this forum, that as soon as a horse isn't useful you kill it ( with the added caveat that it's ok as the horse will never know).
I can only afford one horse, she is retired. I am envious of others going out and about doing stuff, when all I can do is brush my horse - but I wouldn't kill her ( or pay for someone else to do it because of this). I find it shocking that people think it's ok - for a horse that has given you the best years of its life, worked hard etc etc
Is this attitude a reflection on today's society, that as soon as something is no longer useful, it's considered disposable?

Fortunately for me, in real life I know plenty of people who have chosen to keep retired horses. I guess I feel I have a sense of responsibility to any animal I have chosen to take on - and sometimes chose to go without to ensure my animals care.

i'm not talking about those horses that are obviously in pain or suffering.

so what is it about this forum, that there seems to be a prevalence of people advocating pts?

p.s I know I'll likely to be called a bunny hugger - but I'm ok with that!

 

[RunToEarth]

Not sure, HHO seems to have a morbid fascination with death and it's members appear to be very trigger happy - I maintain that whatever people write on here, it is very different when you are in the situation yourself.

 

[Evie91]

Trigger happy - that's it! Pleased I'm not the only one to have noticed!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

The difference between the forum and real life is that you don't know who's giving their opinion. Maybe the pro-PTS er's are young wannabe's who want to be taken seriously as a been there, done that, horse owners.
Or the lower end dealers.

In real life, I haven't met this attitude, especially amongst those who make a living from horses. The best of them have a great respect for the value of a horse after it's 'usefulness' is over.

 

[BBH]

This disposable attitude has always shocked me aswell. I kept my broken boy retired for 15 yrs because he was field sound and happy.

It saddens me to see this callous attitude to horses.

 

[hayinamanger]

I am always saying that there are far worse things that can happen to a horse than pts.

I don't remember seeing any posts where pts is suggested for any equine simply because it has been retired.

The posts that I can recall are those where the OP is unable to keep the horse for perhaps financial reasons, or that the horse has become unsound/ill and is asking about rehoming the horse.

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

I don't think there are really any posters (at least that I've seen) who are keen to promote pts as an option, but I think there are quite a few of us (me included) who think that pts is a much better course of action than some options that allow the horse to live longer.

I've seen too many elderly horses who are living out their final years without the attention and care they so obviously crave, kept alive but miserable and suffering because their owners 'love them too much' to do the decent thing and let them go.

When my first horse was turned away to see if time would allow him to come right, he used to refuse to be turned out after I brought him in to check him over properly and groom and feed him. The only way I got him back out to the field without a fight was to slap a saddle on and ride him round at walk for 10 minutes. That altered my perspective on horses forever. Once we have domesticated them their expectations for their lives are no longer that of a wild horse. We must respect what we have made.

I salute people who keep happy horses alive when they no longer have a job to do. However people like you, OP, are in a minority imho.

 

[loobylu]

Also, they are not always old horses. It's a tricky situation if you find yourself with a 5/6/7 yo who is falling to bits.

 

[jhoward]

I agree op OMG my horse napped today what shall i do...pts its not doing the job u paid for it to do...

 

[TheresaW]

I am always saying that there are far worse things that can happen to a horse than pts.

I don't remember seeing any posts where pts is suggested for any equine simply because it has been retired.

The posts that I can recall are those where the OP is unable to keep the horse for perhaps financial reasons, or that the horse has become unsound/ill and is asking about rehoming the horse.

This exactly. I have a 21yo who is fit as a fiddle, a 17yo who is very arthritic, and a 6yo who is fine and dandy, but not a novice ride yet. At the moment, I am in the position to keep them all on livery, but should finances change what would I do? The 6yo is no problem as he would go back to his previous owner, the 17yo, I really hope I would be strong enough to have him PTS. His arthritis needs careful management, and he isn't a horse that settles easily. Since I've had him, I've moved him to a new yard twice. Once for more turnout, and then about 5 years ago when our old yard closed. Both times he took months to settle involving try to jump out of his stable, once resulting in needing the fire brigade. The 21yo is my real worry. As I've said, she's fit, sound, and an absolute dream to do. She was my first horse, and I hope she will end her days with me, but who knows what the future holds? I don't feel like I could just PTS as she is, but then, could I pass on a 21yo and live with what could happen to her. Unlike the 6yo, her future is probably a lot shorter.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

In real life, I haven't found people to be trigger happy at all. In fact I have known (but not owned, so not my decision when they were PTS or not) far more horses that were kept alive too long and suffered because their owners didn't do the right thing. My own oldie was in hindsight kept going for a night longer than she should have been and I do feel bad about it and I wont dither like that in the future.

I don't like it when people advertise very old and lame horses for free or a nominal sum that they have owned for years. You see lots of these ads on free websites and I think it is wrong to pass on horses like this. The owner should take responsibility for their old horses, not get pass the buck and therefore never have to face PTS. Why do people think it's wrong to give a horse a dignified end in their long term home with the people who've cared for them there at the end?

It's a topic that was covered by the BHS recently.

 

[JillA]

I think it's the old attitude from the days when horses were conveyances, possessions rather than sentient living beings. Think replacing your car when it can no longer do what anyone wants by sending it to the scrapyard - horses used to be no more or less than a means of transport.
We are mostly more enlightened now, but I do have to say that if you aren't fortunate enough to be able to keep a retired horse, then please don't pass it on to get sold on and passed on an into the downward spiral. That IS a fate worse than death - I know that is not what you are referring to here OP.
I have just had a call from someone on behalf of a friend who rescued a couple of ponies some 10 years ago. She can no longer afford to buy coal to keep her house warm much less keep 2 ponies, and now needs to find a home for them, neither of which are rideable. They could easily live another 10 years. I had to give her the advice she really didn't want to hear - they have no future and it really would be kinder to have them PTS. What alternative is there?

 

[Evie91]

Ha,ha glad it's not just me that's noticed!
Thank goodness there are actually other people on the forum who care for their older equines

 

[TheresaW]

Ha,ha glad it's not just me that's noticed!
Thank goodness there are actually other people on the forum who care for their older equines

I am sure there are plenty of people exactly like you, but what will you do should your circumstances change and you simply cannot afford to keep them?

 

[Evie91]

I just find it odd that people can suddenly no longer afford a horse when it's got older - they didn't seem to have the same issues when it was out and about competing. Perhaps I'm being too cynical.

 

[Evie91]

But surely as a responsible owner you have to make provision for your horse? I would miss out on lots of things before I would pts my horse for purely financial considerations.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Likely to be controversial but this is has bugged me about this forum for a while and a comment on another thread has prompted me to post!
My question is; why are there so many users on here who advocate pts for horses that are no longer as useful as they once were?
I know horses are expensive but I do struggle with the prevailing attitude on this forum, that as soon as a horse isn't useful you kill it ( with the added caveat that it's ok as the horse will never know).
I can only afford one horse, she is retired. I am envious of others going out and about doing stuff, when all I can do is brush my horse - but I wouldn't kill her ( or pay for someone else to do it because of this). I find it shocking that people think it's ok - for a horse that has given you the best years of its life, worked hard etc etc
Is this attitude a reflection on today's society, that as soon as something is no longer useful, it's considered disposable?

Fortunately for me, in real life I know plenty of people who have chosen to keep retired horses. I guess I feel I have a sense of responsibility to any animal I have chosen to take on - and sometimes chose to go without to ensure my animals care.

i'm not talking about those horses that are obviously in pain or suffering.

so what is it about this forum, that there seems to be a prevalence of people advocating pts?

p.s I know I'll likely to be called a bunny hugger - but I'm ok with that!

I have every respect for what you have said and as you go through life any horse finding it's way into your hands will be a lucky horse. However many thousands of other horses will not fair so well and pts will be a merciful release for them.

A day or two spent with the equine welfare agencies would give you an insight into why pts is often the kindest decision.

 

[TheresaW]

Evie, I do agree with you pretty much, but circumstances do change. Job loss, death within the family etc. if I lost my OH or my job, am certain I couldn't afford to keep all 3 forever. I have kept Mac for around 7 years now in semi retirement. He could live another 10 years, but if it came to it, I think he would be the first to go. I love him to bits (if you knew some of the things he's put me through over the years, you'd realise just how much I love him), but of the 3, he is the hardest one to keep, and no way would I let him go elsewhere and let god knows what happen to him.

 

[BBH]

I wish people would consider how they would manage if their circumstances changed. Is it not sensible when making such a huge financial commitment as buying a horse not to have emergency funds / contingency plans if you lost your job etc. Everyone knows a horse can live until its 20,s and if it is fit and healthy I do think we should have the responsibility of ensuring it is well cared for . Someone last week said everyone who owns a horse should have at least 200 a month disposes income to prepare for emergencies and I think that's very sensible.

One of the increases in the rush to PTS are perhaps people who buy a cheap horse, keep it on a shoestring and don't really think about the fact horse ownership is such a big long term commitment . When I was a child pony owning was a hobby for a very few wealthy families whereas now they are accessible to everyone .

 

[siennamum]

I think the opposite if I am honest. I think far too many horses (and dogs) are kept alive & medicated way past the point where life was much fun and I would always PTS before an animal starts suffering or it were going to cost me thousands in vets fees to have a miserable old age.

I have a livery at the moment who is a TB chestnut mare, bad sarcoids, rears for England, personally I'd be sorely tempted to take to Potters, it's just a huge shame that a. she's rising 5, & b. she was born to be a race horse. Unlike her many compatriots as a 2 yr old she didn't get shipped off for slaughter, but I'm not sure being saved has done her any great favours.

 

[TheresaW]

Again, I agree, but savings will only go so far for so long. Yes, if one of us lost our jobs, we will find other jobs. (Both of us have been made redundant separately over the last 3 years, were lucky and found new jobs very quickly). If OH was to die tomorrow, that is half our income gone. If I were to die, he knows my wishes for the 3 of them. Ollie would go back to his previous owner, Mac would be PTS, and doll would stay with him. He would keep all 3 for as long as he could, but he isn't horsey, and how would he afford them, work full time, and look after our son?

 

[AdorableAlice]

I wish people would consider how they would manage if their circumstances changed. Is it not sensible when making such a huge financial commitment as buying a horse not to have emergency funds / contingency plans if you lost your job etc. Everyone knows a horse can live until its 20,s and if it is fit and healthy I do think we should have the responsibility of ensuring it is well cared for . Someone last week said everyone who owns a horse should have at least 200 a month disposes income to prepare for emergencies and I think that's very sensible.

One of the increases in the rush to PTS are perhaps people who buy a cheap horse, keep it on a shoestring and don't really think about the fact horse ownership is such a big long term commitment . When I was a child pony owning was a hobby for a very few wealthy families whereas now they are accessible to everyone .

Very wise words indeed. Here are two examples.

I was asked to find a riding horse/cobby type for someone recently, budget £500 and very obvious that keeping it was going to be a problem. I declined and they went on and bought an unbroken youngster. Kept in less than ideal circumstances it is heading for 2k on vet care, no insurance and they have queried pts costs with me.

I have been ill and had to consider what would happen to my boys and girls should I not recover. I wrote a letter to be given to my vet, who is also my best friend, with my wishes for the horses to be found decent homes. My best horse, retired with various problems and very high care requirements is to be pts.

 

[RunToEarth]

But surely as a responsible owner you have to make provision for your horse? I would miss out on lots of things before I would pts my horse for purely financial considerations.

I had my mare until she was PTS at 32, about 8 years after she was retired and she was a pleasure to keep.

But I have horses to do a job for me. My mare stayed with us because she had been with us for years and we owed her a retirement and a forever home. If I had a horse who needed retiring from work and I didn't have the time/money/space for one in work and one retired I would think of having a horse PTS if I could not secure it's future.

The whole PTS thing as been done again and again on these forums but I do agree with the posters who say that there are far worse fates than death where injured, quirky or retired horses are concerned.

 

[Auslander]

I get crosser with the sanctimonious "how COULD you" posts on PTS query threads than I do with the posters who are clearly agonising over what to do when finances are tight and they have an old/lame/behaviourally unsound horse that is not suitable for rehoming. If someone has no money, they have no money - and I'm pretty sure that anyone with an ounce of pride wouldn't post on a public forum admitting that unless they genuinely were on their uppers. Retiring a horse is great, if you have the money and facilities to do so, and the horse is the sort to actually enjoy retirement. Some don't.

As for PTS one old/lame horse so that the person can get themselves a riding horse. Why shouldn't they? It's not going to make a blind bit of difference to the horse who is PTS - he/she isn't going to know anything after the deed is done. It's not cruel to have a horse pts, even if it is a bit too soon in some cases. Its far crueller to get rid to an uncertain future, or to keep a horse that is in pain, physically or mentally, and just chuck it out in a field.

I'd like to see a lot less judging and a lot more kindness on these threads where the poster is trying to make a very difficult decision. I've got 4 horses at my place - retired or semi retired, so I have no issue with having old crocks stumbling around the place. They are fit, well and happy, but if anything happened to me, or i was no longer able to afford them - my two would be PTS, rather than being passed on.

 

[Ibblebibble]

I haven't seen a single thread where the owner of a sellable horse has been told to have it PTS, what i have seen is lots of people wanting to pass on their horses which are lame, unrideable etc instead of taking responsibility for that animal. It would be lovely if there were decent retirement homes for every old or unrideable horse but you only have to look on sites like facebook to see how bad the welfare situation is in this country! horses going through Beeston in an emaciated condition with underlying health problems, they should have been pTS at home, but no, an owner decided to get the last drop of money out of them rather than spending money on a dignified end. Horses and ponies being sold on groups such as 'under £100 or free' a horse should not be cheaper than some kids toys, when they are they get treated the same, pushed to one side and forgotten and neglected when the novelty has worn off.
TBH if you can't sell a horse for more than meat money then perhaps PTS is the best option!
Yes there are some genuine homes out there who pick up the pieces for other people, but they are few and far between, whereas the wannabe dealers, rescuers and con artists are 10 a penny!
In the last year my eyes have really been opened to the harsh reality of what happens to the unwanted equines, the sheer number of idiot wannabe rescuers and the shocking idiocy of the type of owner who buys a cheap horse because it's fluffy and lovely but thinks it's acceptable to keep it in their lounge or garage or back garden!
This is why some of us think PTS is a better option than being passed to some dodgy git who only wants to pass the horse on to make a few quid

 

[Patterdale]

Not sure, HHO seems to have a morbid fascination with death and it's members appear to be very trigger happy - I maintain that whatever people write on here, it is very different when you are in the situation yourself.

Totally agree, and it seems to be the hot/trendy topic of the moment.

I don't think there are really any posters (at least that I've seen) who are keen to promote pts as an option, .

Are you reading the same forum??

I agree op OMG my horse napped today what shall i do...pts its not doing the job u paid for it to do...

Very true!

 

[BBH]

No one as far as I can see has said not to PTS a horse that is in pain , infirm , whatever but I think it's fair to day that animal lovers despair of these numerous threads where someone is making out a horse has some supposed illness just to assay their guilt because they just don't want it anymore .

All I'm saying is people know that over the middle / long term people s circumstances change so why not consider what you'd do or how you'd cope if they do change.

Also what's this constant reference to ' if you can't assure a safe future '. Why assume only the owner is capable of providing a good home. ?. AA. 's stance is absolutely sensible if a horse takes a lot of looking after or expendive medicines it's reasonable to know not many would take on such a horse but as an example I know someone who took on two rescue horses both on their early twenties and she found fabulous new homes so there are good people out there.

 

[Shantara]

I will never forget when someone said I should consider having Ned pts...he wasn't even my horse at the time :O

 

[_GG_]

I get crosser with the sanctimonious "how COULD you" posts on PTS query threads than I do with the posters who are clearly agonising over what to do when finances are tight and they have an old/lame/behaviourally unsound horse that is not suitable for rehoming. If someone has no money, they have no money - and I'm pretty sure that anyone with an ounce of pride wouldn't post on a public forum admitting that unless they genuinely were on their uppers. Retiring a horse is great, if you have the money and facilities to do so, and the horse is the sort to actually enjoy retirement. Some don't.

As for PTS one old/lame horse so that the person can get themselves a riding horse. Why shouldn't they? It's not going to make a blind bit of difference to the horse who is PTS - he/she isn't going to know anything after the deed is done. It's not cruel to have a horse pts, even if it is a bit too soon in some cases. Its far crueller to get rid to an uncertain future, or to keep a horse that is in pain, physically or mentally, and just chuck it out in a field.

I'd like to see a lot less judging and a lot more kindness on these threads where the poster is trying to make a very difficult decision. I've got 4 horses at my place - retired or semi retired, so I have no issue with having old crocks stumbling around the place. They are fit, well and happy, but if anything happened to me, or i was no longer able to afford them - my two would be PTS, rather than being passed on.

I haven't seen a single thread where the owner of a sellable horse has been told to have it PTS, what i have seen is lots of people wanting to pass on their horses which are lame, unrideable etc instead of taking responsibility for that animal. It would be lovely if there were decent retirement homes for every old or unrideable horse but you only have to look on sites like facebook to see how bad the welfare situation is in this country! horses going through Beeston in an emaciated condition with underlying health problems, they should have been pTS at home, but no, an owner decided to get the last drop of money out of them rather than spending money on a dignified end. Horses and ponies being sold on groups such as 'under £100 or free' a horse should not be cheaper than some kids toys, when they are they get treated the same, pushed to one side and forgotten and neglected when the novelty has worn off.
TBH if you can't sell a horse for more than meat money then perhaps PTS is the best option!
Yes there are some genuine homes out there who pick up the pieces for other people, but they are few and far between, whereas the wannabe dealers, rescuers and con artists are 10 a penny!
In the last year my eyes have really been opened to the harsh reality of what happens to the unwanted equines, the sheer number of idiot wannabe rescuers and the shocking idiocy of the type of owner who buys a cheap horse because it's fluffy and lovely but thinks it's acceptable to keep it in their lounge or garage or back garden!
This is why some of us think PTS is a better option than being passed to some dodgy git who only wants to pass the horse on to make a few quid

These two posts sum it up pretty well IMO.

Ibblebibble being from the same area as me will know some of the same people who are borderline horse collectors and seem to add to the numbers with little regard to the cost, then post them up for sale for stupidly low prices on facebook pages. They believe they are helping these horses and ponies but the truth is, the more horses and ponies these self appointed saints and 'rescuers' take to sell on for a measly profit, the more they are fuelling the crisis that we currently have in this country.

I hate to see a horse put to sleep, healthy or not, it is a heart breaking thing to end the life of an animal, but it isn't about me or what I find upsetting. It is about what is in the best interest of the horse. I have never seen a thread on here where any poster has endorsed putting to sleep an horse that has a good chance of a good life. I have however seen and been one of the posters that advises PTS as an option for a horse where there is no chance of a pain free, happy future or where there is a risk that the horse will fall on hard times.

I would bet my life savings on the fact that the people that don't agree with those of us that advise PTS in certain cases are also the people that share stories on facebook about ponies being dumped in bin bags or found on the side of roads. It's of course perfectly understandable to be so upset and angry at horses being treated in such a way...I feel the same way, but I am realistic enough to know that if someone had been brave enough to choose PTS as an option, those horses would not have met such grizzly and upsetting ends.

Life isn't fair, but it is not about us or how we feel...nor is it about what we think of others and what they do. It is about putting the horses welfare first and that can't always be a pain free future with a guarantee of a happy and abuse/neglect free retirement.

 

[Mithras]

Barely a day goes by without a new thread about pts. I remember when there were 3 on page 1 of New Lounge when I looked!

It certainly makes me uncomfortable. Most people in real life that I know if they have to make the decision manage to do so quietly without the need to publicise about it to a huge number of people to make themselves feel better. I appreciate people react in different ways, but that seems odd to me. So I think its a combination of:

- people who feel guilty about it but trying to make themselves feel better by listening to the huge number of people on internet forums who will agree with anything anyone says.

- people who buy horses without thinking about whether they could keep that horse to the end of its natural life, or even whether they can afford it/might lose interest/are quite novice and will ruin the horse. People who buy dogs and cats without thinking about these sort of things are rightly criticised but similar people who buy horses aren't - odd. This is sometimes justified on the basis that horses are bigger and more expensive to keep...

- people who like to talk about worst case scenario things and sort of glory in "proving" to an online forum how tough and hard they are by claiming to have no scruples about doing it whatsoever.