Pts & h&h!

[Mithras]

Very wise words indeed. Here are two examples.

I was asked to find a riding horse/cobby type for someone recently, budget £500 and very obvious that keeping it was going to be a problem. I declined and they went on and bought an unbroken youngster. Kept in less than ideal circumstances it is heading for 2k on vet care, no insurance and they have queried pts costs with me.

In a similar vein, there was a post in New Lounge a few weeks ago which concerned a horse which had been passed from pillar to post, the rider had little time to ride, and whose only fault was being difficult to lead in hand but which was described as good to ride. Immediately this heralded a chorus of "pts!" "pts!". It blood lust was sickening.

 

[Maesfen]

These two posts sum it up pretty well IMO.

Ibblebibble being from the same area as me will know some of the same people who are borderline horse collectors and seem to add to the numbers with little regard to the cost, then post them up for sale for stupidly low prices on facebook pages. They believe they are helping these horses and ponies but the truth is, the more horses and ponies these self appointed saints and 'rescuers' take to sell on for a measly profit, the more they are fuelling the crisis that we currently have in this country.

I hate to see a horse put to sleep, healthy or not, it is a heart breaking thing to end the life of an animal, but it isn't about me or what I find upsetting. It is about what is in the best interest of the horse. I have never seen a thread on here where any poster has endorsed putting to sleep an horse that has a good chance of a good life. I have however seen and been one of the posters that advises PTS as an option for a horse where there is no chance of a pain free, happy future or where there is a risk that the horse will fall on hard times.

I would bet my life savings on the fact that the people that don't agree with those of us that advise PTS in certain cases are also the people that share stories on facebook about ponies being dumped in bin bags or found on the side of roads. It's of course perfectly understandable to be so upset and angry at horses being treated in such a way...I feel the same way, but I am realistic enough to know that if someone had been brave enough to choose PTS as an option, those horses would not have met such grizzly and upsetting ends.

Life isn't fair, but it is not about us or how we feel...nor is it about what we think of others and what they do. It is about putting the horses welfare first and that can't always be a pain free future with a guarantee of a happy and abuse/neglect free retirement.

Couldn't agree more than with this and that posted by AA and Auslander.

You're not being a bunny hugger if you put your horse first above all things but you are if you continue to let a horse suffer because you can't do the decent and right thing for that horse; that's on a parr with dog baiting, cock fighting etc whether you like the comparison or not; it is plain cruelty.

 

[Mithras]

Perhaps they could start their own campaign:

"pts the horses of Britain!" with a supporting website comparing how young a horse they had pts, how many horses they have pts, a discussion of the best methods used (with full descriptions of any suffering), etc..

 

[Auslander]

Perhaps they could start their own campaign:

"pts the horses of Britain!" with a supporting website comparing how young a horse they had pts, how many horses they have pts, a discussion of the best methods used (with full descriptions of any suffering), etc..

What a ridiculous post. I have NEVER seen anyone posting in a way that suggests they get a kick out of having a horse PTS.

 

[hnmisty]

Ha,ha glad it's not just me that's noticed!
Thank goodness there are actually other people on the forum who care for their older equines

I kept my old girl until she was 35, she died at home with her head in my arms.

However, I live in the real world. If people for whatever reason are not able to keep their elderly (or lame retired horse) until the end of their days then I would rather it was PTS than sold on as a companion.

I know someone who sold their horse that had navicular on as a companion for a nominal amount. You've guessed it...her unridable horse was sold on to be ridden.

I am also sick and tired of seeing people keep elderly animals (not just horses, dogs and cats too) alive that are suffering in their old age because they don't realise that just being alive doesn't guarantee freedom from suffering.

Yes, it would be lovely if animals were only owned by caring people who kept them until they began to suffer and then put them down at home surrounded by people they've known for years. Sadly, I don't think you'll have any luck passing a law that requires all pet owners to keep their animals until their health begins to decline too rapidly.

There are enough horror stories of "comapions" being sold on etc, and enough abandoned equines that yet again I am saying PUTTING AN ANIMAL TO SLEEP IS NOT THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO IT. I'd much rather put my companion pony down if I could no longer afford it than regime it and find it as a bundle of bones in 6 months time.

 

[_GG_]

Perhaps they could start their own campaign:

"pts the horses of Britain!" with a supporting website comparing how young a horse they had pts, how many horses they have pts, a discussion of the best methods used (with full descriptions of any suffering), etc..

Now see, posts like this say very little about the people you are discussing, because none of them, on this forum have ever sensationalised or promoted PTS as anything but a last resort when It is in the best interest of the horse in question.

Posts like this DO however, say an awful lot about the people who write them. Inflammatory and unnecessary IMO.

 

[Fii]

I am also sick and tired of seeing people keep elderly animals (not just horses, dogs and cats too) alive that are suffering in their old age because they don't realise that just being alive doesn't guarantee freedom from suffering.

Yes, it would be lovely if animals were only owned by caring people who kept them until they began to suffer and then put them down at home surrounded by people they've known for years. Sadly, I don't think you'll have any luck passing a law that requires all pet owners to keep their animals until their health begins to decline too rapidly.

There are enough horror stories of "comapions" being sold on etc, and enough abandoned equines that yet again I am saying PUTTING AN ANIMAL TO SLEEP IS NOT THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO IT. I'd much rather put my companion pony down if I could no longer afford it than regime it and find it as a bundle of bones in 6 months time.

Here, here!!! well said!

 

[Supertrooper]

I've been on livery yards were some people go through horses every two months, they never give the poor horse a chance to settle or build up any kind of relationship with it before it gets replaced by another poor animal.

 

[touchstone]

These two posts sum it up pretty well IMO.

Ibblebibble being from the same area as me will know some of the same people who are borderline horse collectors and seem to add to the numbers with little regard to the cost, then post them up for sale for stupidly low prices on facebook pages. They believe they are helping these horses and ponies but the truth is, the more horses and ponies these self appointed saints and 'rescuers' take to sell on for a measly profit, the more they are fuelling the crisis that we currently have in this country.

I hate to see a horse put to sleep, healthy or not, it is a heart breaking thing to end the life of an animal, but it isn't about me or what I find upsetting. It is about what is in the best interest of the horse. I have never seen a thread on here where any poster has endorsed putting to sleep an horse that has a good chance of a good life. I have however seen and been one of the posters that advises PTS as an option for a horse where there is no chance of a pain free, happy future or where there is a risk that the horse will fall on hard times.

I would bet my life savings on the fact that the people that don't agree with those of us that advise PTS in certain cases are also the people that share stories on facebook about ponies being dumped in bin bags or found on the side of roads. It's of course perfectly understandable to be so upset and angry at horses being treated in such a way...I feel the same way, but I am realistic enough to know that if someone had been brave enough to choose PTS as an option, those horses would not have met such grizzly and upsetting ends.

Life isn't fair, but it is not about us or how we feel...nor is it about what we think of others and what they do. It is about putting the horses welfare first and that can't always be a pain free future with a guarantee of a happy and abuse/neglect free retirement.

Excellent post GG. As far as I am concerned pts is a last resort, but one that can save a horse from suffering or an uncertain future. There is no crime in that, and it is certainly not 'bloodlust' to do what you feel is in the horse's best interests. If it were such a terrible thing to pts an old unwanted horse, then I'm sure the welfare agencies who are at the sharp end of the situation would say to save them at all costs; however many recommend pts instead.
And before I get condemned as a heartless horse killer, I've kept my current horse for 16 years, through two years of retirement where others would probably have pts anyway. It is not 'kind' to keep a horse going that is suffering from terrible arthritis or other conditions, pts is necessary in the case of many horses that have no/little quality of life.
We have countless young healthy horses going for slaughter, perhaps seeing them would put into perspective allowing an old or ill horse to pass peacefully.

 

[Mithras]

What a ridiculous post. I have NEVER seen anyone posting in a way that suggests they get a kick out of having a horse PTS.

Actually, I really do suspect there are a few people who do get a bit of a kick about posting about it and telling people who don't agree with constantly pushing its benefits they are bunny huggers.

 

[Booboos]

OP you gloss over the most important part of the argument that the horses never know. This is the crucial bit. Horses live in the now so our obligation is to look after their welfare now; horses don't think about tomorrow, don't regret the idea of a shorter life, don't dread death or have existentialist worries about what happens in the afterlife.

You assume the choice is between retirement or PTS but that is very naive. Many horses won't settle in retirement (those that are too young, or have behavioural rather than physical ridden issues), and, more crucially, the choice is usually between PTS and passing on a problem horse that will in all likelihood be passed on to someone else.

Finally I bet you that you have limits as well. Suppose your next horse is a youngster that is written off after a couple of months of ownership, how long will you keep him? Then he needs a 5k colic operation, will you pay for this? And keep paying livery fees for the next 20-25 years?

 

[meandmyself]

Yes, I do think some people are too quick to suggest PTS, but in the most part, they're doing it for the right reasons. No-one wants to see horses suffering.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've seen too many elderly horses who are living out their final years without the attention and care they so obviously crave, kept alive but miserable and suffering because their owners 'love them too much' to do the decent thing and let them go.

^^^This. Far from people having horses PTS on a whim, I see far too many miserable old equines hobbling round a field and demoted to bottom of the pecking order. They have zero quality of life and are only kept alive as their misguided owners believe they are being kind to them.

 

[Alec Swan]

OP you gloss over the most important part of the argument that the horses never know. This is the crucial bit. Horses live in the now so our obligation is to look after their welfare now; horses don't think about tomorrow, don't regret the idea of a shorter life, don't dread death or have existentialist worries about what happens in the afterlife.

You assume the choice is between retirement or PTS but that is very naive. Many horses won't settle in retirement (those that are too young, or have behavioural rather than physical ridden issues), and, more crucially, the choice is usually between PTS and passing on a problem horse that will in all likelihood be passed on to someone else.

.......

Such a good post. Those who consider the horse to think and reason as a human will, would do well to print off the above, and continue to read it, until it sinks in!!

Alec.

 

[Flame_]

OP you gloss over the most important part of the argument that the horses never know. This is the crucial bit. Horses live in the now so our obligation is to look after their welfare now; horses don't think about tomorrow, don't regret the idea of a shorter life, don't dread death or have existentialist worries about what happens in the afterlife.

TBF though, and I'm sure this counts as inflammatory but WTH, this also applies to babies but no one would see this as an acceptable reason for justifying them pts (just to point out a little double standard) ...

I've already explained why I'm fine with pts on the last thread, but to summarise it, what is the alternative for unwanted expensive animals? Can they all go to Mithras' house?

 

[Megibo]

I've not read all of the replies, but I posted a thread not long ago about my mare possibly being retired as back issues causing her to be bilaterally lame under saddle and had a few 'PTS' comments. Not a chance on gods green earth!
I'll have had her 9 years this year, and if she can't return to being comfortable under saddle then she'll just retire-simple! She is 15 in May so not old either.

ETA-though in the case of old, lame or other unsaleabe horses I find it very sensible to PTS and would suggest it yes. We did this with my lovely loan ex-racer, so I put my money where my mouth is, heartbreaking as it was. If you have an elderly horse you can't keep I'd much rather see them PTS peacefully than passed on. But then I'm sick of seeing '21 year old free to good home..nice companion/light hacker' etc!

 

[Auslander]

Actually, I really do suspect there are a few people who do get a bit of a kick about posting about it and telling people who don't agree with constantly pushing its benefits they are bunny huggers.

There's a distinct difference between people disapproving of passing on/keeping an infirm horse going for ones' own selfish motives, and them getting perverse pleasure out of putting horses to sleep.

You think it's wrong to PTS for financial/sentimental reasons a horse that can't be sold on - I don't think that makes you a bunny hugger, nor have I ever called anyone a bunny hugger for doing so. I would PTS, not without much personal pain - but because i believe that is the right things to do. I am sentimental about my horses, and I think most of my posts about my horses will confirm this. However, I will always take steps to ensure their continued wellbeing, and I am ever in a position where I am unable to guarantee them the comfortable retirement I have pledged to give them, i would not be comfortable with palming them off on someone else as companions. Not because I don't think anyone can look after my horses as well as I do, but because I don't believe that an elderly, infirm horse should be moved on. My lot have a home for life - but not necessarily their natural life. I'd rather pts a happy oldie, and know without a shadow of doubt that it would never suffer, than see it deteriorate, whether that be in my care, or someone else's, to a point where pTS is the only option on welfare grounds. A few weeks of pain for me would be a small price to pay for knowing that the horse is safe and will never know harm or hardship.

 

[*hic*]

There's a distinct difference between people disapproving of passing on/keeping an infirm horse going for ones' own selfish motives, and them getting perverse pleasure out of putting horses to sleep.

You think it's wrong to PTS for financial/sentimental reasons a horse that can't be sold on - I don't think that makes you a bunny hugger, nor have I ever called anyone a bunny hugger for doing so. I would PTS, not without much personal pain - but because i believe that is the right things to do. I am sentimental about my horses, and I think most of my posts about my horses will confirm this. However, I will always take steps to ensure their continued wellbeing, and I am ever in a position where I am unable to guarantee them the comfortable retirement I have pledged to give them, i would not be comfortable with palming them off on someone else as companions. Not because I don't think anyone can look after my horses as well as I do, but because I don't believe that an elderly, infirm horse should be moved on. My lot have a home for life - but not necessarily their natural life. I'd rather pts a happy oldie, and know without a shadow of doubt that it would never suffer, than see it deteriorate, whether that be in my care, or someone else's, to a point where pTS is the only option on welfare grounds. A few weeks of pain for me would be a small price to pay for knowing that the horse is safe and will never know harm or hardship.

^^^ This, I have three old horses, however, one 21yo is out as a companion because I trust the person who has her to manage her old age problems as best as they can be managed, she has been there a couple of years and she's very happy there. Two are at home, the 31 yo is officially nanny to my youngster, the 21 yo is ridden when he's up to it. Basically they are all retired and have been for some years. I made a lifestyle choice to live somewhere where I could keep them until they are better off pts. When that happens we will all be devastated but our pain will be tempered by knowing that they have had the best end of life care possible without keeping them going for our sake.

 

[L&M]

Sorry I haven't read all the posts, but my two pennies worth...

I would always advocate pts rather than trying to push the problem on to somone else, ie re homing a knackered horse as a companion.

So much depends on finances and personal situations - I am fortunate to have my own yard and land so can accomdate a retired horse, but wouldn't be prepared to pay livery for one.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

The choice it that of the owner.......end of. Horses have no conception of the decisons to be made. The last 2 that we retired had summer in the field and were then PTS. Our horses, our choice and it was in their best interests. Horses that have led busy active lives do not necessarily enjoy be left in a field.....especially when their mates go out to play.

 

[luckyoldme]

The choice it that of the owner.......end of. Horses have no conception of the decisons to be made. The last 2 that we retired had summer in the field and were then PTS. Our horses, our choice and it was in their best interests. Horses that have led busy active lives do not necessarily enjoy be left in a field.....especially when their mates go out to play.

i agree entirely.
I also think that i would nt need the approval or the opinion of anyone other than myself as to when or why i decide to end my horses life. I would never ask for help with such a personal descision from a group of strangers!

 

[Polos Mum]

I think the big increase in PTS threads is the massive increase in people (newish usually) coming on and asking what they can do with their old/sick/lame horses that they don't want/can't afford.

IMHO these people know what they should do (it's pretty clear that there aren't too many happy alternatives) but need the reassurance of a handful of strangers (no idea why) to make their decision. Or they are clutching at straws and genuinely are hoping that they have missed a get rid quick scheme that won't end in disaster.

Again IMHO I think the weather this year is totally awful and people who have struggled on are reaching the end of their patients and are seeking out get rid options, maybe that is why there are so many people asking pretty much the same question and therefore getting pretty much the same answer.

I'm often a PTS suggester, I don;t think I'm blood thursty, but I do think I can be very practical about an animal I don't know and will never know.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

i agree entirely.
I also think that i would nt need the approval or the opinion of anyone other than myself as to when or why i decide to end my horses life. I would never ask for help with such a personal descision from a group of strangers!

Hear hear!!!

 

[windand rain]

The answer probably lies close to the fact that the majority of people who post on here are wise and keen on the welfare of animals. If you can afford to retire a horse on livery for years and don't have a youngster then that is your choice. I am older and the older I get the more pragmatic I get to be honest I would prefer to PTS my horses that sell them in the main Why because the media pressure of endless Daily Mail stories of abandoned, neglected and down right cruelly treated horses I want to make sure no matter how short their lives are they will never suffer like that. Can anyone else look after them well maybe but I can't bear the thought of them coming to harm I have no money because my horses get it all the only contingency fund I have is a PTS fund. Is that the wrong thing In my view and it is personal with the current market the only horses that should ever change hands are expensive, fit, strong, healthy animals with no behavioural problems. All the rest should be kept by their owners and the rest should be PTS when that no longer is a sustainable by the owner. How many people come on here saying they have been sold something that is costing thousands in vets bill, Has tried to kill them and they have been duped by dodgy sellers. If only the very best ever went on the market then only the best would go to responsible owners and barring accidents they will have long and fruitful lives with their new owner Utopia probably but it would solve the whole argument from both points of view

 

[be positive]

I think the big increase in PTS threads is the massive increase in people (newish usually) coming on and asking what they can do with their old/sick/lame horses that they don't want/can't afford.

IMHO these people know what they should do (it's pretty clear that there aren't too many happy alternatives) but need the reassurance of a handful of strangers (no idea why) to make their decision. Or they are clutching at straws and genuinely are hoping that they have missed a get rid quick scheme that won't end in disaster.

Again IMHO I think the weather this year is totally awful and people who have struggled on are reaching the end of their patients and are seeking out get rid options, maybe that is why there are so many people asking pretty much the same question and therefore getting pretty much the same answer.

I'm often a PTS suggester, I don;t think I'm blood thursty, but I do think I can be very practical about an animal I don't know and will never know.

I think this is true, people coming on hoping that there is an answer, or magic wand that can offer a solution, most people do not consider what they will do at the "end" when they buy a horse, whether the end is due to old age, injury, something unexpected such as divorce or loss of a job, if everyone had to put a financial plan for life in place before buying a horse most would not be able to buy. Pts is not always the easy option but for many it must be the best option.

 

[Mithras]

There's a distinct difference between people disapproving of passing on/keeping an infirm horse going for ones' own selfish motives, and them getting perverse pleasure out of putting horses to sleep.

You think it's wrong to PTS for financial/sentimental reasons a horse that can't be sold on - I don't think that makes you a bunny hugger, nor have I ever called anyone a bunny hugger for doing so. I would PTS, not without much personal pain - but because i believe that is the right things to do. I am sentimental about my horses, and I think most of my posts about my horses will confirm this. However, I will always take steps to ensure their continued wellbeing, and I am ever in a position where I am unable to guarantee them the comfortable retirement I have pledged to give them, i would not be comfortable with palming them off on someone else as companions. Not because I don't think anyone can look after my horses as well as I do, but because I don't believe that an elderly, infirm horse should be moved on. My lot have a home for life - but not necessarily their natural life. I'd rather pts a happy oldie, and know without a shadow of doubt that it would never suffer, than see it deteriorate, whether that be in my care, or someone else's, to a point where pTS is the only option on welfare grounds. A few weeks of pain for me would be a small price to pay for knowing that the horse is safe and will never know harm or hardship.

I actually find it illogical - and I say that as a competitive rider. I'm not amongst the best riders, so like many others in my position, my success in lower level affiliated competitions depends very much on the partnership with my horse. So I therefore find it totally illogical to then have the attitude towards that horse, with which you are trying to build, lets face it, a partnership which is based not purely on riding it, that it will be put it to sleep as soon as it is no longer capable of doing the job you have it for.

This must surely apply even more so to riders who don't compete, or compete infrequently - even hacking is all about the partnership you have with your horse. If you view that horse as a disposable item to be used while it is new and efficient, how does that work?

I do also think that any owner should think about doing things to facilitate the horse's retirement while it is in work. So if it doesn't like turnout, spend time getting it to accept turnout, and set things up so that turnout is possible and beneficial. If the horse doesn't cope with rest, how on earth do you periodise its training and competition phase? Any athlete is going to get injured if it trains all year round without breaks. If you don't think rehoming will be possible because it doesn't hack, spend time teaching it to hack safely. Obviously, there will be horses out there who simply cannot learn these things, but there is little excuse for not thinking it and not trying.

I certainly don't believe in not pts old and infirm horses, or horses who are heavily medicated. But I don't really agree with ending natural healthy lives due to convenience. Older horses give such pleasure, and you can learn so much from them.

 

[Goldenstar]

My views on this subject are very formed by the time I spent as a welfare officer .
Personally I don't care what others think about my views and am happy to give them.
The desision to retire or PTS rests with the horses owner and no one else .
Theres a wide range of views on this but I find some of the comments on this thread about blood lust and like deeply unpleasant and very wide of the mark based on my experiance of what goes on in the real world .
Every one has the right to express their view on here .
And of course every one has the right to agree or disagree with the the views expressed . Personally I have never felt the need to denigrate the views of others by accusing them of suffering from a form of mental illness as happened on a thread recently but hey ho each to their own .
I have to say when I posted after I had my cob PTS and I did feel terrible I was on my own in the house and people's kindness did help me don't think I would bother going here again in such a circumstance again .

 

[Patterdale]

It's worth remembering that this thread is not about PTS in general; more, this forum's seeming obsession with it.
Eg question - 'my horse is has a bruised sole and once when he was younger he reared, what should I do?'
Answer - 'PTS - dangerous and lame'

Question - 'my horse is very bargy in the stable and knocked me over, what should I do?'
Answer - 'your horse is clearly dangerous, you must PTS'

Question - 'I've had my horse advertised but can't sell it, what should I do?'
Answer - 'pts, he must have serious issues'

Question - 'my horse is 10 and really nice to ride but naps out hacking, and gets a bit stiff after hunting, how much should I ask for him?'
Answer - 'you would be irresponsible to sell this horse, it clearly has kissing spines/ulcers and is dangerous. PTS'

I could go on.

Nobody is denying that sometimes PTS is sadly the best option, but I've never met anyone as trigger happy in real life as some on this forum....:eek3:

 

[DJ]

I have quite honestly never heard such utter tosh in my whole life.

I have 2 horses, my husband and i both work and can financially afford them, however, if i lost my job, and/or he lost his job, we split up(which has nearly happened a time or two) or god forbid i lost him, then i wouldn`t be able to keep mine, end of discussion. NO BODY has a job for life, no one, so under that guise, unless you are a millionaire, no one should ever have a horse just in case their circumstances change????? .... What utter rubbish. I have a child to care for, and a roof to keep over my head, and whilst i love my horses and will always do my best by them, if it comes down to paying livery, or my child eating for the week then it`s pretty obvious which i would choose.

One of my boys would be easy to sell, he is amazing, in fact I have someone interested him at the moment and i`m really hoping they take him on, it will free up more time for my other one who is a pain in the backside and causes me no end of issues .... He can be an absolute horror and i would struggle to rehome him, so damn right i`d have him PTS, so at least i know where he ended up.

Throw your hands up in horror, well i`ve seen both sides of the coin, a really good friend of mine had to sell her beloved mare for many reasons, she did it all the best she could, thought she had a home for life, including a "i want first refusal if you can`t keep her" etc etc .... only for a dealer to get in touch 2 years later having picked her up for peanuts at the sale .... My friend was not in a position to buy her back due to some horrific circumstances in her life at that point (that she ouldn`t help as accidents happen), and the dealer sent the mare for meat ... i had to listen to my friend sob her heart out .... i cried with her.

IF ..... IF you are in a position to offer your long standing horse/pony a long and happy retirement, then kudos to you. I`m sure most of us want the best for our horses, whether we have had them 2 minutes or 20 years. But i tell you now, putting to sleep a horse at home, when it is old, lame, has behavioural issues, or is no longer useful, in todays saturated market, should NOT be made out to be a bad thing.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's worth remembering that this thread is not about PTS in general; more, this forum's seeming obsession with it.
Eg question - 'my horse is has a bruised sole and once when he was younger he reared, what should I do?'
Answer - 'PTS - dangerous and lame'

Question - 'my horse is very bargy in the stable and knocked me over, what should I do?'
Answer - 'your horse is clearly dangerous, you must PTS'

Question - 'I've had my horse advertised but can't sell it, what should I do?'
Answer - 'pts, he must have serious issues'

Question - 'my horse is 10 and really nice to ride but naps out hacking, and gets a bit stiff after hunting, how much should I ask for him?'
Answer - 'you would be irresponsible to sell this horse, it clearly has kissing spines/ulcers and is dangerous. PTS'

I could go on.

Nobody is denying that sometimes PTS is sadly the best option, but I've never met anyone as trigger happy in real life as some on this forum....:eek3:

I understand now there's parallel forum and people are straying across because I dont recognise any of the senarios listed above .