PTS would you help?

My husband was in the unfortunate position of being first on the scene after a neighbours mare (with foal at foot) slipped and broke her back in the field adjoining ours last year. In fact she would have drowned had he not dealt with the situation as her head was in a puddle and she was struggling to keep her head out of the water. The owner was away and we managed to contact him as my hubby phoned me at work and we got the vet. It was a long story that wasn't particularly pleasant but eventually she was PTS while my husband stroke her... Then we got the bill which was £400 because we had called the vet and collection by the local knackerman was another £150 (cash)! We struggled to get the (absent) owner to pay up and although our vet was understanding they said legally they could pursue the costs at court if necessary!
Hubby's response ( having sat in 12 inches of water for hours holding the mare while it's desperate foal tried to suckle) was " and what the ******* was I supposed to do, leave her to drown and have that on my conscience?"
Personally I have had to have 4 horses and ponies PTS and one died of colic too and £200 has never covered it- the first was in 1986!
Only one was planned, that was the cheapest but still £300 to have her buried by a local farmer!
 
Here in Aberdeenshire the knackery is about £200 (that was what we paid in the Spring of 2013) for a horse and less for a pony. It's just a little cheaper than it was, there is a new Fallen stock/ knackery business and the competition seems to be working the price down a tad.
 
And I still think it's time the "charities" got on board with a subsidised system of some sort in the areas where the prices are extortionate. Here we have an efficient and sympathetic company who do not charge the earth, we are very fortunate.
 
Hairy Old Cob said:
There are far too many Old infirm neglected horses in the country, I think it is down to Irresponsible breeding from some ignorant ill informed individuals the traveling community who no longer travel and rely on their horses. Owners who wont face up to their resposibility of having old or dangerous horses put to sleep,"just pass the problem on", and the fact that in general horses are now more regarded as pets than working animals and people keep them hanging on to the bitter end seeming to think it kinder to have dragged out of the mud on the end of the Knackermans winch wire rather than having them PTS with Dignity at an earlier date.
In all honesty how many horses languishing in well meaning charities and dubious rescue centres are only treading mud before their inevitable end, and it would be far kinder for them to be PTS.
I am not a callous uncaring person it is because I care so much I have these views we are looking at horrendous longrange forcast for the winter things are not going to improve.
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wonderful well thought out post I too am a quality over quantity person and would love to see these poor beasts put out of the misery they live including some from some pretty famous welfare organisations I cannot go a view at open days anymore nor will I financially support them there are misery ridden horses standing knee deep in mud in winter and horses that have been severely injured in accidents that would have been far better not to suffer the recovery Maybe it is just me but perhaps it is the general publics do good attitude and teir horrror at the thought of these old and sick horses reaching a peaceful end that makes these rescues carry on after all donations would likely fall if Joe Public thought their money was going to buy PTS options for the many.
It may only be under 200pounds to have a pony dealt with but if you hit hard times 200 is a huge sum of money and the loss of income can be very rapid in todays economic climate. 200 could buy a lot of tins of beans and bread for a hungry child, and could provide a respite for the poor ponies until they can be rehomed or shot so there are certain circumstances when charities could step in and let these animals go with dignity before they starve to death or are dumped somewhere to be injured or worse
 
babymare said:
I am a beliver in quality of life and will and have take responsibiliy of making that decision But having worked in a charity your first thoughts when that ramp gies down isnt thats aged lets pts to sleep.your first thoughts are to get that poor neglected soul comfy. yes sometimes they maybe to far gone and to pts is only option but if not you give them a chance. Think back a couple of years to the rescue on here of Spud & carrot.2 aged horses in horrific condition. Barnsby rest home fought to help those horses and against odds they survived and went on to enjoy a couple of years of love and kindness before being pts with dignity. was barnsby wrong not to pts straight away? Yes you can argue they were but personally i think not and i bet spud &carrot would agree to :)
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I'm afraid I don't agree with this attitude at all.

Of course the first thought should be to stop the suffering. But having made them "comfy" why carry on for days, months, years?
Care for them, relieve the immediate suffering and then PTS.

Hand on heart, what are you giving them a chance of if they are aged and infirm?

I don't think "Spud" and "Carrot" would have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. They wouldn't know and they wouldn't understand, it's beyond the capacity of a horse.
 
I too am very dubious about some welfare organisations. In fact I am sure some "registered charities" are that purely for dubious financial gain. If that sounds harsh I can back up my claim by the way!
 
I do wonder if some of the money spent by charities on castration would be better spent on PTS of some of the poorer specimens which are unlikely to lead any sort of useful life (and hence have a rather dodgy future).

I wouldn't send a horse to the blood bank either - and it certainly isn't a solution to the thousands of unwanteds.

It was great to see carrot and spud improve and suspect they enjoyed their last couple of years, I do think we perhaps have to consider how much that makes us feel good rather than them though, I'm really not sure on that.
 
ester said:
I do wonder if some of the money spent by charities on castration would be better spent on PTS of some of the poorer specimens which are unlikely to lead any sort of useful life (and hence have a rather dodgy future).
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But in a financial climate where unfortunately nobody can do everything they'd like to (i.e. tackle both PTS and castration), surely it's marginally better to try to stem the problem - so you're not just in future repeating quite such an extensive PTS cycle of animals who wouldn't have found their sorry way into the world had the sire not been done?
 
I answered this thread 3 years ago.....The old Pony is now 43, sound, toothless and senile. Every Autumn we look at him and wonder how we are going to keep him fat enough to go through the winter but somehow we still do. He still chases the girls and protects his herd and is very rude to lead as he is spoiled but he seems very happy and lively and he will never suffer.
(The Lady that had the other Pony stopped replying to my emails and letters and I sadly have lost touch. I assume this is because she did indeed have him put down but I have no real idea)
 
When I was more actively running a rescue I would only take in those who had a reasonable chance of being rehomed, and there aren't many people looking for companion ponies. Take too many and they "bed block" or you end up with too many to care for properly - I often advised owners that their best course of action was PTS, whether they heeded it or not I couldn't say.
The main charities are in a difficult position, they rely on public donations and the great British public are unlikely to donate to organisations that "kill horses".
 
Knackerman round here costs £210 for bullet and removal. Quick easy and relatively painless, not sure how much the huntsman is.

I am another who believes that horses seized who are never going to recover should have pictures taken from all angles and then PTS, also those trying to sell or give older horses and ponies away annoy me, to the point you actually want to get in their face and scream at them to do the right thing and not be a coward.

I have an older horse he's 24 and if I couldn't care for him then he would be kindly PTS at the farm or off with the huntsman and that would be it. I wouldn't pass him on regardless of the fact he's still rideable.
 
Welly said:
So why are they ending up with charities? Is it that owners can’t or won’t make the decision for themselves and if so why? Is it too heart breaking for them, is it they don’t know how to do it, or maybe it is just the cost.
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As disgussed before - a lot of the elderly ones are ones that have been gifted in in wills, or ones they have had come in due to welfare cases.
 
Merrick said:
As my vet very wisely reminds people...
"Better a month too early than a day too late."
Worth remembering!
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I chose to have my rising 30 year old PTS nearly 3 years ago. Her arthritis was becoming a problem in many ways. She had enjoyed 7 years of nice retirement and lots of attention from me. She was happy enough but it wasn't good enough for me any more and I particularly didn't want her going into yet another cold, muddy, dismal winter. The vet who came on the day thanked me.
 
There's an organisation in the US who do this, its a subsidised euthanasia service with helpers there to be with the owners. Its done by injection and as far as I can see its been popular.
 
I really don't understant how elderly horses end up at these centres as surely an owners last responsibility is to have a horse humanely PTS. It makes me so sad that anyone who keeps a horse thinks it's ok to just pass on an old animal for someone else to take on the responsibility. I find it hard to believe that so many owners can't afford to do the right thing by their horses. You see so many horses for sale well into their 20's claiming they are still active and ' young at heart', makes me want to cry that they are prepared to pass on a horse who should be given the best care in their old age.
 
I have two that I will probably PTS at the end of August, they are not particularly old but they have been brood mare machines through out their lives, one in particular, and the wear and tear on their bodies is catching up with them. It makes me so sad when they come trotting up to that as looking at them superficially they look so well, but I knew I would have to do this when I took them on.
I have been though this every year for the last four years, I had a field full of elderly out grown childrens pony and horses, the local hunt charges £130 and they are shot in their own field.
I think in general we have become totally detached from the process of death in animals and humans, no one wants to think of the realities of animal ownership when they buy their animal, that why there are so many unwanted dogs, cats, an now horses. Its always someone else's problem and how lovely if a charity gets to pay for it.
My solution is that horse passports should be far more expensive, they should have to be completed before weaning and the cost used to run a data base, which is enforced. Money from the fee should be put fund to subsidise fallen stock companies, they like the hunt are far cheaper than the vets and there should be readily available information on how to call them out on every council web site.
 
A good post honetpot, though what should happen and what will happen may not be the same. With charities and equine welfare societies, for them to advise what many know to be right, simply won't happen. They do after all have their own well-beings to consider! Despite their fine words and proclamations, the welfare of the horse is rarely their rational.

We also need to reinstate an ethical equine slaughter system and give the animal an end value. With such an end value, then both those who can't justify the end disposal cost, and those who currently re-home will have a realistic disposal system. The problem with that is that it will need the support of the larger welfare groups, and that isn't about to happen, because put simply, no suffering horses means no wealthy charities.

Alec.
 
This is a very sad subject for us as this week we have just said goodbye to my sisters horse. We use a company called Peake in Cornwall the total cost was £138. So it's not the cost down here. I think it's just that owners don't want to make the decision for them selves.
 
I don't understand how an owner can't face that final decision, if it is best for the horse then it's the last kindness you show to your animal. I have an elderly mare that I bred and as soon as her quality of life is not good I will have no problem with PTS. Obviously I will be sad and shed many tears but I will know that I have done the best for her. That is the least our faithful old horses deserve. Everyone who owns a horse should have enough money put aside to be able to do this last thing for their horse.
 
In reply to Alec's post.

With the amount of 'coloured cob type ponies' being bred and largely being the type seen in recent rescues/ siezures and low end online sales, do you not think that giving equines an 'end' value would just cause these 'breeders' to proliferate? I don't think it would bode well for equine welfare in the long term....especially with the live export rules being on stony ground. After all, I don't suppose that many genuine horse lovers would send their horse live to an abbatoir. Plus the fact that this could open up a route for more abbatoirs the likes of Red Lion to open up and cash in. The government is clearly not interested in welfare before and at slaughter as the Red Lion incident proved.
 
hackneylass,

I accept that you've raised interesting points, but No, I don't think that it would actively encourage breeding. For a horse to sell in to an abattoir for £3-400 and for it to be kept for probably 3 years, and considering the added costs of the parent stock, then the profit and loss aspect would lean heavily towards a financial failure. I do though agree that the current system also cannot be considered as profitable, so I'm not really sure of the answer, except that it would provide a workable response to the current state of affairs.

Here in the UK we tend to find the idea of horses going to slaughter to be distasteful, I agree but with a resurgence in a properly monitored and regulated abattoir system, then I think that many who currently view the only alternative to be the likes of the Red Lion premises, would have their doubts and fears allayed. I'd suggest that with the sorry end to the lives of many horses being that they end up in poorly run and unsuitable businesses such as the Red Lion, or possibly worse in that they end up in equally unsuitable 'rescue' centres, then that is currently the only alternative to the continuing production of horses, and with no market for them, alive or dead.

I remain of the opinion that with correctly run businesses, which are licensed and monitored, so it's the only logical answer. The parallel could be the disposal system of our own household rubbish which we mostly have collected on a weekly basis, and were there no such disposal system, then the build up of what we discard would be just the same as it is with our equines. Our horses are entitled to a humane end, and despite the clamour that 'education' is the answer, it's not worked yet, and I very much doubt that it will ever solve the problem.

One thing's for certain, there's no clear fits-all answer! :)

Alec.
 
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This is where the eating horsemeat debate comes in doesn't it? Not many cows,pigs etc end up neglected and suffering because they are not pets and they are bred as food. Are horses still send abroad live for meat, cant remember. Don't advocate this of course. However, the British people are never realistically going to eat horsemeat, same as most don't eat rabbit.

As an aside, Would any of you take on an old horse that the owners wont pts and pay for it to be done ? Ive often wondered if I would if put In the position of seeing an animal that really needs to be pts
 
Penny Less,

no one in their right minds would believe that the British public could be educated to eating horse meat, I agree! Just as when rabbits formed a large part of the staple diet of the working classes, and between the two great wars, we no longer seem to have much of a taste for it! Even the Continentals are experiencing a taste-shift and horse meat is no longer as popular as it once was. No, the market for horse meat would be for the pet meat trade, and though of a lesser value per kilo than our traditional meats, there would still be a ready market and one which could grow.

As to your aside, I once bought a broken down old TB mare from some domiciled travellers for £100, took her home gave her one night of comfort and called the knackerman the next morning. That was in the days when there was a market for horse meat, she left me dead, and at no cost.

Alec.
 
The economics of breeding horses for meat to not stack up, and certainly not for most horses that are already here. They have to have traceable medicine history, so he ones dumped are out, and any pet equine that had bute.
On the continent they use heavy breeds for meat, like Ardennes, with a large muscles mass, they have larger amounts of large available grazing, its no coincidence that most of our native breeds are under 14.2, are slow maturing, and developed to survive on poor grazing because we have little available spare land. In meat terms they are just about as productive as native breed of sheep that are kept, but will need more feed, unless you want further welfare issues. Cattle and dairy farmers are struggling because of high costs and their animals have been selected for fast growth and meat/milk production.
Breeding is be a privilege and not a right and certainly not done on a whim, when you can buy one or even three colt foals for £20, there is something seriously wrong. Slaughtering a sheep cost about £15, because they have volume and there is a market, it would take decades to get a viable market for horsemeat even it was economic.
 
Penny Less said:
…….. Not many cows,pigs etc end up neglected and suffering because they are not pets and they are bred as food. ……..
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That's a good point, but there's further reasoning! The reason why our meat producing livestock are 'generally' kept looking well, is for the reasons of economics. No abattoir wants thin animals. It would follow that were horses to be considered for their meat value, then better care would be taken of them, stands to reason!

honetpot said:
…….. . They have to have traceable medicine history, so he ones dumped are out, and any pet equine that had bute.
……..
Breeding is be a privilege and not a right and certainly not done on a whim, …….. .
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I don't have a recently issued equine passport in front of me, but from memory, they state that horses which have been 'signed off' cannot go in to the human food chain. Does it say that they can't be commercially slaughtered to prevent them from entering the animal-feed food chain?

I'm sorry to tell you that the breeding of horses IS a right.

Alec.
 
jrp204 said:
The ultimate responsibility of owning any animal is taking that last decision, unfortunately too many people won't do it and will pass the problem on to someone else. It irritates the hell out of me when you see ads for unrideable/aged animals being sold or given away because the owner won't do the right thing.
And yes, I would help.
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I agree. My horses and ponies are with me for life but if the signs are there that they no longer have a comfortable standard of living then I am brave enough to make the decision, I won't say its easy but I would rather make the decision than pass them onto some one else. I have had to make this decision three times in the past 3 years and it never gets easier but I feel better for not making them suffer and knowing I gave them a good life xx
 
Alec. I note your points but I feel that the main culprits currently breeding these low value animals largely don't medicate an or pay much for their pasturing. They will see money at the end of it and if they only got £100 for an underweight animal its better for them having a definite buyer than paying for online adverts and such.

As far as I know passports only keep horses out of the human food chain, but I stand to be corrected on that. As far as petfood is concerened, the Association of British Petfood Manufacturers which 90% of manufacturers belong to do not use equine meat or derivatives at all. and all meat has to be passed for human consumption before it is used, so thats a huge chunk of potential buyers out of the equation. As for meat animals being well kept, well yes, because there is profit at the end of it and regulations to adhere to that we just dont have for horses in the UK. Also, horses and ponies here don't have the genetic makeup that our traditional meat animals have, they don't mature fast enough or have enough muscle mass to be profitable.
 
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