Public sector pensions

nursecroft said:
Why do you have to be so bitchy and nasty? I am writing quickly on a forum not writing an english essay there is no need to be so rude. :mad: I don't really appreciate being told my degree is un-neccessary, i hardly see how I have missed the point of the thead. I simply stated my opinion and got a lot of nasty replys from a few that think public workers are all muppets. I am online looking at other threads and trust me this is my last reply, i'm not flouncing i am human and all these insults actually do hurt and I'm really quite sick of being attacked. My ignore list is growing!!

Me and my chip are off to nicer pastures!!!! :rolleyes:
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QED.
 
nursecroft said:
I had a pm from a nice a member and I'm sorry I did misread your post,

Like i said I apologise for mis-reading your post.

I only came back to apologise, won't be back again as can't stand being run down on here anymore by such bitter nasty women. I wouldn't waste your time replyig either as you are now on my ignore list.
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*Scratches head*.

Anyway, I have been finding this an enjoyable and informative discussion (especially the comments on economics), with remarkably few fallings out, considering the subject matter.
 
I was enjoying reading the debate here... and then nursecroft appeared :rolleyes:
Nursecroft, the only person rude, condescending and throwing personal insults on this thread is YOU.
I also have worked hard on my 2 degrees, but I don't feel entitled to anything on that basis.
 
deleted as can't stand anymore abuse.

I've can't seem delete my posts, i should have not voiced my opinion here. i'd just like to be left alone please.
 
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I'm a nurse
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I haven't got a degree (couldn't afford the degree at the time). I worked my way through Uni by doing extra nights as a health care assistant. But we all knew we WOULD get a job as soon as we qualified. We were the last batch to walk into jobs easily.

Nursing is hard. You watch people die. You watch a teenage boy lying across the body of his mother, howling like a wounded animal. You watch the mangers treat patient's like numbers rather than humans.

It leaves scars.

But I'll never whine about it. That's the job. And I'm honoured to do it.

Regarding pensions - I just don't know what the answer is. It all makes my head hurt.

I'll stick to what I know - nursing and barefoot;)
 
BeesKnees said:
It's interesting you say this. I spent 4 years in adult education and found them so stressful it made me leave. It wasn't the work, the pay, the pension, which were all very good, but the public sector bureaucracy and crappy management, as well as government dictats that we had no control over.

I wonder if the focus on pay and pensions amongst public sector workers is actually a distraction from the real causes of their stress. They feel they don't have any control over much of their work, but they can take action over perceived unfairness in pay and pensions.
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if someone comes along and says they are going to reduce your pay (to pay pension contributions) increase your retirement age or reduce your anticipated pension then it is human nature to object. Along with that you have a workforce who are extremely demoralised. I knew many staff who you would have regarded as excellent. They had the old "work ethic", cared about what they did and the service they provided. Now they want out. They simply cannot cope with the deterioration in the departments. If you take all responsibility away from people, continually and unecessarily check and double check their work, give them little stake in what they are doing then you curb all enthusiasm.
I remember when the management techniques used in call centres started to filter through to staff. We laughed when we heard they were told what they could have on their desks almost to the point as to where they could position their cups. It quickly became obvious it was far from a joke. Is that any way to empower staff and increase productivity?

Against that you have a backdrop of office closures. There are ways to manage difficult situations well but you always knew if there was a good way to do something and a bad way then a civil service department would manage to make the bad way ten times worse. They could be relied on to make a hash of most things. :D
Against that you have the unions. As staff morale has justifiably reached rock bottom due to the crappy management and government dictats the unions, who had predicted this, have become more popular. Even more moderate staff have started to see that a lot of the union comments on working practices are justified.
Along with that of course you have the situation that some people feel that they had little choice but to strike if they were union members. (vote, peer pressure etc)
 
suestowford said:
I know I am cheating by copy & pasting but found this on bbc website. It compares the average pension paid in public sector to the average paid to private sector.

Using a mean average, some £7,800 a year is being paid in a public sector pension compared with £7,467 for a private sector salary-linked pension.


Not that much difference is there?
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The difference is that typically a private sector worker will not be able to join a final salary pension, because they are too expensive. Something like 1 in 10 private sector employees will have the option.

A typical private sector pension would be around 1100pa, a typical public sector pension would be around 5400pa.


We've had a perfect storm of people living longer, which makes annuities more expensive, also the record unpredicted and unprecedented low interest rates which no actuaries predicted, meaning that not enough has been invested in the pots which will be needed to pay the more expensive annuities.

The private sector has dealt with this by closing final salary schemes, the public sector is increasing contributions and putting up retirement ages. Private sector workers don't often get consulted before the benefits they were promised when they joined the company are removed.
 
nursecroft said:
deleted as can't stand anymore abuse.

I've can't seem delete my posts, i should have not voiced my opinion here. i'd just like to be left alone please.
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I'm probably on your 'user ignore' list by now, but if I'm not, how about not running away; stand your ground and learn to debate, not scarper when someone disagrees with you? :)

We object to being called 'bitchy and nasty' just because we disagree with you and put across another point of view just as you disagree with what we say: that's debate and that's life.

If you can learn to debate, listen, give and take within the safe confines of an internet forum, trust me; it will help you stand your ground outside to much greater effect.
 
nursecroft said:
Why do you have to be so bitchy and nasty? I apologised for mis-reading that members post. I am writing quickly on a forum not writing an english essay there is no need to be so rude. :mad: I don't really appreciate being told my degree is un-neccessary, i hardly see how I have missed the point of the thead. I simply stated my opinion and got a lot of nasty replys from a few that think public workers are all muppets. I am online looking at other threads and trust me this is my last reply, i'm not flouncing i am human and all these insults actually do hurt and I'm really quite sick of being attacked. My ignore list is growing!!

Me and my chip are off to nicer pastures!!!! ....Sorry 'my chip and I:' rolleyes:
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Nursecroft - when these guys upset you just remember that there are paying your wages and your 'gold plated' pension and they hate it - you really do have the last laugh in all of this :D
 
Dear me, seems I missed the point entirely! I start rambling on about pensions and guff on a thread that's something about flouncing, barefoot nurses? Can anyone enlighten me :rolleyes:
 
nursecroft said:
I don't really appreciate being told my degree is un-neccessary, i hardly see how I have missed the point of the thead. I simply stated my opinion and got a lot of nasty replys from a few that think public workers are all muppets.
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1. Most degrees are fairly useless let's face it. Not sure mine ever made much contribution to my career. Honestly, do you think you learnt anything really useful on your degree that nurses in years before didn't learn?

2. You missed the point of the thread becaude funnily enough it wasn't about you! It was about the general issues surrounding the financing and affordability of public sector pensions and the contrast with private sector pay and pensions.

3. You came on, gave your opinion and then had a strop because people
disagreed with you. I believe only one person used the term muppets, but you insisted on taking it all very personally, making crass remarks about people without degrees who who god forbid, work on a cash desk, and accusing us of being 'rude, bitchy and horrible women'.

Frankly you have behaved like a spoilt child, and have given a very bad impression of public sector workers. Luckily I know a lot of public sector workers who aren't like that.

I suggest you add me to your ignore list, go away and grow up.
 
dieseldog said:
Nursecroft - when these guys upset you just remember that there are paying your wages and your 'gold plated' pension and they hate it - you really do have the last laugh in all of this :D
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Nice.

Is it just me or do many of the pro public sector posts consist of idiotic remarks which just make the posters look selfish. Or a bit thick :confused:
 
Dirtymare said:
Exactly.
Your local council is gradually divesting all services. In fact Selby council only have 14 employees. All services have been put to private companies. The health service will not be far behind.
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Actually - this is not quite the truth. Council staff have been moved into an Arms Length Management Company - which is still effectively being employed by the council. Now they are looking to outsource some services - but they don't really only have 14 staff.
 
Oberon said:
My current patients (at the custody suite) are all shoeless so they can't hurt you when they kick you....or hurt themselves with their laces..

So I'm not sure
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I think they are probably shoeless, in that they want shoes but temporarily they aren't wearing any. Can you send them out to run over a gravel driveway to see if they've transitioned yet?


ps I have enormous respect for mental health nurses, that's a job and a half!
 
Santa Paws said:
I think they are probably shoeless, in that they want shoes but temporarily they aren't wearing any. Can you send them out to run over a gravel driveway to see if they've transitioned yet?


ps I have enormous respect for mental health nurses, that's a job and a half!
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Nah - not mental health - just a bog standard nurse/drone.

And I'm paid well. I feel respected. And I don't believe I have it harder than everyone else;)
 
Oberon said:
Nah - not mental health - just a bog standard nurse/drone.

And I'm paid well. I feel respected. And I don't believe I have it harder than everyone else;)
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We should probably stop diverting this thread but why have you got people in custody???? A personal fetish, or are you working in a Police Station??? A perk of the job that no-one told us about? Come on, fess up!
 
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Santa Paws said:
We should probably stop diverting this thread but why have you got people in custody???? A personal fetish, or are you working in a Police Station??? A perk of the job that no-one told us about? Come on, fess up!
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My title is Custody and Forensics Nurse - so in the Police Stations across the county, I (try to) ensure the medical well being and safety of the detained persons, assess and treat the staff when injured and collect forensic samples when required.

The only perks are that I can read books on hooves when it's quiet;)

I went to university for three years, worked my arse off for the last 8 years to learn everything I could and be the best I could be......and the custody staff sent me to the shop to get them biscuits at 2.30am the other night
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Santa Paws said:
IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS POST "VALUE" HAS NO NO NO NO INDICATION OF SOCIAL WORTH.
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So in the context of this discussion "value" shouldn't be given a value judgement (so to speak) - there isn't anything inherently right or wrong about it, it's just an indication of monetary value, i.e. what people are prepared to pay for some good or service, right? Does that mean those who create it are not to be considered superior to those who don't, and therefore it would be unfair to scold or criticize those who don't create it? If not, the implication would seem to be that the private sector - and the people who work in it - are superior in terms of social worth to those in the public sector - and I think you are clearly saying this isn't the case!

Another thought/question... A lot of our current economic problems seem to stem from debt - particularly that which can't be serviced and hence is at high risk of being defaulted upon. (I hope I've got the terminology right!) What I am wondering is: why don't governments get together and decide to completely write off all unserviceable national debts amongst themselves (a la Solon the Athenian(!) lawmaker)? Well, clearly there must be some drawback to this cunning plan, otherwise they would have done it already! But there hasn't even been any talk of anything like that. So which countries or groups of people would be so severely disadvantaged by a wholesale debt write-off to make it an unthinkable act? Does it mean that debt is, after all, necessary - even desirable?? And if that's the case, perhaps we should all stop grumbling about it!

ETA: Related to the last point, this might give you a chuckle... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5QwKEwo4Bc
 
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fburton said:
So in the context of this discussion "value" shouldn't be given a value judgement (so to speak) - there isn't anything inherently right or wrong about it, it's just an indication of monetary value, i.e. what people are prepared to pay for some good or service, right? Does that mean those who create it are not to be considered superior to those who don't, and therefore it would be unfair to scold or criticize those who don't create it?
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Quite. Totally unfair to scold them on the basis of being non profit making. Absolutely ridiculous, in fact. But to scold them for wanting other people to pay for them to have something of immense value when the payer cannot have that themselves and may in fact earn much, much less in salary too - that's perfectly fair.

fburton said:
If not, the implication would seem to be that the private sector - and the people who work in it - are superior in terms of social worth to those in the public sector - and I think you are clearly saying this isn't the case!
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Clearly not the case.



fburton said:
Another thought/question... A lot of our current economic problems seem to stem from debt - particularly that which can't be serviced and hence is at high risk of being defaulted upon. (I hope I've got the terminology right!) What I am wondering is: why don't governments get together and decide to completely write off all unserviceable national debts amongst themselves (a la Solon the Athenian(!) lawmaker)?
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You're a bright cookie! This is just the question that my husband and I have been asking. I think it will happen, we can see no other way out of the current mess. If Greece owes Italy a million, Italy owes Spain a million and Spain owes Greece a million, and that's not far from the truth of it, then all three need to agree that no-one owes anyone anything. Of course it's not that easy :) Italy lent the money to Greece for two years at 5%, borrowed money off Spain for one year at 4% and Spain borrowed from Greece for three years at 2% and that all has to be unravelled.


fburton said:
Well, clearly there must be some drawback to this cunning plan, otherwise they would have done it already! But there hasn't even been any talk of anything like that. So which countries or groups of people would be so severely disadvantaged by a wholesale debt write-off to make it an unthinkable act? Does it mean that debt is, after all, necessary - even desirable?? And if that's the case, perhaps we should all stop grumbling about it!

ETA: Related to the last point, this might give you a chuckle... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5QwKEwo4Bc
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Debt is not sustainable when everyone has overborrowed, as we are seeing now! It depends on SOMEONE having enough money to bail everyone out. And since a GERMAN bank has only just in the last day or two had to be bailed out, I think your solution is coming quicker than you realised !!



ps those clips are BRILLIANT because they are TRUE !!
 
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fburton said:
So in the context of this discussion "value" shouldn't be given a value judgement (so to speak) - there isn't anything inherently right or wrong about it, it's just an indication of monetary value, i.e. what people are prepared to pay for some good or service, right? Does that mean those who create it are not to be considered superior to those who don't, and therefore it would be unfair to scold or criticize those who don't create it? If not, the implication would seem to be that the private sector - and the people who work in it - are superior in terms of social worth to those in the public sector - and I think you are clearly saying this isn't the case!
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I think the more common arguement is actually the opposite! That public sector workers are somehow more morally worthy than private sector workers, and their worth should not be evaulated in monetary terms, hence if they do not get as high employment benefits as they and their unions believe they deserve, they have the right (morally) to strike and inconvenience millions. Particularly if someone says they are a nurse (bad example perhaps and I'm not trying to pick on anyone), simply because they do a caring job, they are supposed somehow to be beyond questions. But lots of other people do caring jobs too, and people who don't do that line of work aren't somehow less worthy either...

Is not a huge part of the problem that the public sector has snowballed in recent years and now employs a large trench of unncessary workers. ie unneccessary for the provision of good, basic, essential services which should be its job, not interfering in the private lives of its citizens. It might not be so bad in England and Wales as in Scotland, but in the latter a third of all employees work in the public sector, which is ridiculously high.

And of course to change it, means losing votes, and losing the votes of the relatives dependent on these salaries.
 
..., but it's only a small part of what is wrong with Public Sector pensions. The problem is that we are living too long. People are now routinely living 25 - 30 years after their retirement date and that is, quite simply, unaffordable unless you save about half what you earn.

True we are all living longer/. Trouble is that the public sector - who DO pay for their pensions, it doesn't all come from your purse - are not only being asked to work more years, pay more into the pension pot they are then being told they must then accept smaller pensions in return. Fair?

Ther other thing the Government never mention is that the longer we work the shorter our lives are likely to become. Statistically those forced to work extra years die sooner than those who retire early. So many of us (Private and Public) who end up working until we are 70 probably will die in harness and never see a penny of their pension.

That is what the savings never look at - estimates are based on people living longer but we might not.

Also, anyone in the Private sector who has ever been given an end of year salary bonus or benefits from having a company car can stop complaining about pubic sector workers - those are luxuries that don't exist. It is all swings and roundabouts, what you gain in one area you lose in another.
 
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