Public sector pensions

[Oliver12]

After working 15 years in 'public sector' (and in my case quite a well paid job, relatively speaking) I'll get about 9k per year in my inflated pension pot - is that really so exciting?

It's a bit more exciting than my husband's pension pot which was halved due to a takeover of his company which plundered the pension fund and the stock market crash many years ago. He worked and paid into a pension scheme for over 40 years as an electronics/design engineer for a major telecomms company (and yes he ALSO studied for many years gaining an engineering degree in 1970 (when degrees meant something!) and his pension is around about £10,000.

 

[Wundahorse]

Society needs a certain amount of public sector services to ensure the smooth running of the country and to provide essential provision in health,education,police etc,without which chaos would ensue,as we see in countries without such a decent and civil order.Now before you all bash me,i know things are not perfect and could be improved on,but in order to provide these services,they need to be funded.If people were asked to contribute what they could afford,as long as they got out a proportionate service,there would be a huge disparity in what they would be entitled to,with the poorest getting the least out.The system tries to be fair to all,but it is complicated by various factors,not least a current recession.Although my salary comes from the Government,i pay taxes,Ni and superannuation,quite a bit in fact.NHS pensions are essentially funded through the members,in an investment which has been wisely nurtured for many years,with some contribution from the Government.Reckless financiers and stockbrokers have had no part in these funds,unlike in the private sector,so i am very sorry that such a well invested pension should upset so many in the private sector.Any money i spend to live goes back into the private sector,and the public purse,so myself and other public sector staff are contributing greatly to the economy,and maybe some of your business's.I do understand all that stuff about where the money for the public sector derives,so please do not patronise me with another blast.I also studied Politics and have a good awareness about Government,including all the historical stuff.Yes it is tough for everyone right now,but targeting public sector staff is really unhelpful,and just shows most the average person in the private sector has no concept about public services.

 

[cptrayes]

so i am very sorry that such a well invested pension should upset so many in the private sector.

many public sector pensions are unfunded. Those that are funded are not sufficient to pay out their future liabilities due to the increase in life expectancy. There is no upset about your well invested pension funds covering all future liabilities, because they no more exist than those in the private sector.

NHS pensions are essentially funded through the members,

No they are not. They are 100% financed by the taxpayer. Even on a superficial level your employer pays a LOT more in than you do. But at the end of the day it ALL comes from the private sector taxpayer. Much as you say you understand Public Sector financing, you clearly do not understand the financing of your own pension.

Any money i spend to live goes back into the private sector,and the public purse,so myself and other public sector staff are contributing greatly to the economy

You are not. You are giving us back the money that we gave you. If you did not spend it we would happily spend it for ourselves.

Yes it is tough for everyone right now,but targeting public sector staff is really unhelpful,and just shows most the average person in the private sector has no concept about public services.

We are not "targetting the public sector", we are simply explaining the reality of your unsustainable pensions and the unreasonableness of striking to protect them.

None of this is about the social value of the public sector, which we all understand perfectly, thankyou. Society cannot operate without a public sector. That does not mean that it cannot operate without a public sector paid fixed benefit pensions that an increasingly tiny proportion of the private sector has access to.

 

[Wundahorse]

That is exactly the reaction which this Government wants to evoke to create a divide between public and private sector,so that they believe they can justify their own actions.Really we should all be working together to get through this mess,which seems interminable at the moment.This dichotomy of opinion can only create more ill feeling,and is frankly quite pointless as you will always believe you are paying my wages,and i will point out that i also contribute to the bigger picture,in my very minuscule way.I am also well informed by the pension people that the NHS pension is doing well on it's own accord,because of the way these funds have been invested.Please don't forget that the scheme changed in 1997 to an average salary pension,and further reforms for new staff have been implemented.

 

[martlin]

I'm not sure how we can work together, and I just don't see a reason why we should, so I can pay for a pension for you of the kind I will not be able to afford for myself...

 

[Mrs B]

That is exactly the reaction which this Government wants to evoke to create a divide between public and private sector,so that they believe they can justify their own actions.Really we should all be working together to get through this mess,which seems interminable at the moment.This dichotomy of opinion can only create more ill feeling,and is frankly quite pointless as you will always believe you are paying my wages,and i will point out that i also contribute to the bigger picture,in my very minuscule way.I am also well informed by the pension people that the NHS pension is doing well on it's own accord,because of the way these funds have been invested.Please don't forget that the scheme changed in 1997 to an average salary pension,and further reforms for new staff have been implemented.

Ah! So it's all a plot by this government. I see! Nothing to do with the fact that every time it's pointed out to you that we DO pay your wages, you try to blame something or someone else....

Personally, I feel that this government hasn't got a lot of choice, given the state the last one left us in - as in that note, remember?

"Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards - and good luck! Liam"

 

[cptrayes]

That is exactly the reaction which this Government wants to evoke to create a divide between public and private sector,so that they believe they can justify their own actions.Really we should all be working together to get through this mess,which seems interminable at the moment.This dichotomy of opinion can only create more ill feeling,and is frankly quite pointless as you will always believe you are paying my wages,and i will point out that i also contribute to the bigger picture,in my very minuscule way.I am also well informed by the pension people that the NHS pension is doing well on it's own accord,because of the way these funds have been invested.Please don't forget that the scheme changed in 1997 to an average salary pension,and further reforms for new staff have been implemented.

Oh for gawds sake you just don't want to see how completely unjust it is for the people who pay for your pension to be unable to get anything half as good themselves, do you?

This is nothing to do with creating a divide. There IS a divide. You are unfairly well remunerated, and unless it stops you will become ever more and more unfairly remunerated as your pension fund deficit becomes more apparent, and it has to change.

We don't BELIEVE we are paying your wages. We ARE paying your wages.

I'm off to find you the NHS pension figures but your union leaders are feeding you the line they want you to believe.


I LOVE your offer to "all work together" - what exactly are you proposing to offer to do yourself in order to rebalance the unfairness between public and private sector pensions? Funnily enough, the government is trying to do just that and last week your union called a strike to stop them.


Here you go Wundahorse, that wasn't difficult to find, just google "NHS pension deficit" and you'll find pages of stuff telling you about it. Your scheme is as bankrupt as any other unless people start dying earlier from tomorrow.

http://www.hsj.co.uk/news/finance/n...-predicted-within-three-years/5038842.article

 

[YorksG]

If people really believe that public sector workers contributions to their pensions are not from their money, because actually public sector workers don't get money, it is all donated by tax payers from the private sector perhaps you can envisage a world where there are no public sector workers. You may think oh goodie I will not have to pay any tax, good luck to you. No free education, no bin emptying, no road mending, no road gritting, no NHS, children abused without anyone intervening, criminals doing as they please, no prisons, etc etc.

 

[martlin]

If people really believe that public sector workers contributions to their pensions are not from their money, because actually public sector workers don't get money, it is all donated by tax payers from the private sector perhaps you can envisage a world where there are no public sector workers. You may think oh goodie I will not have to pay any tax, good luck to you. No free education, no bin emptying, no road mending, no road gritting, no NHS, children abused without anyone intervening, criminals doing as they please, no prisons, etc etc.

Ah, you see, but I don't object to paying for Public Sector salaries with my taxes, what I am objecting to is funding the sort of pensions I cannot afford for myself.

 

[cptrayes]

Please don't forget that the scheme changed in 1997 to an average salary pension,and further reforms for new staff have been implemented.

Please don't forget that a salary linked, inflation proofed pension is not available AT ALL to the vast majority of private sector workers.

 

[cptrayes]

If people really believe that public sector workers contributions to their pensions are not from their money, because actually public sector workers don't get money, it is all donated by tax payers from the private sector perhaps you can envisage a world where there are no public sector workers. You may think oh goodie I will not have to pay any tax, good luck to you. No free education, no bin emptying, no road mending, no road gritting, no NHS, children abused without anyone intervening, criminals doing as they please, no prisons, etc etc.

The discussion is NOT ABOUT THE VALUE OF THE SERVICES YOU PROVIDE which are OF COURSE essential to the continuation of a modern society.

If is about how much your pensions cost us and whether they can continue to be justified, which they can't.

NO-ONE is suggesting that we can do without the public sector completely. No-one wants that to happen. You devalue your own case by writing such rubbish, you really do.

What is it with you people that you cannot accept that what you do is wholly financed by the private sector? It's not a crime! It's just a fact of life.

 

[Mithras]

I do understand all that stuff about where the money for the public sector derives,so please do not patronise me with another blast.I also studied Politics and have a good awareness about Government,including all the historical stuff.Yes it is tough for everyone right now,but targeting public sector staff is really unhelpful,and just shows most the average person in the private sector has no concept about public services.

It is most certainly helpful - in life, thing are always modernised, change hopefully goes hand in hand with progress. There is no ideological necessity as to why the public sector should be exempt from this, and indeed the current pension provision is unsustainable within it, as within the private sector in many cases.

Your latter statement is condescending and wrong. I think the average person in the private sector (who may well have worked in the public sector at one time) is extremely well informed about the public sector.

 

[YorksG]

You constantly devalue the public sector, Santa Paws, your dismissal of essential services, along with those who claim that they worked in the public sector and consider us to be idle and overpaid. As I have pointed out previously the statement from my LA pension fund states that they are in funds and do not foresee a short fall.
Taken to its extreem, the only people who have the right to consider themselves productive are those who manufacture goods (not services) which are all sold for export. Anyone else is not paying 'real' tax, merely recycling the currency.
I would happily take home my current net salary and not, by your standards, pretend to pay tax and national insurance

 

[cptrayes]

You constantly devalue the public sector, Santa Paws, your dismissal of essential services,

I do no such thing. AT NO TIME have I devalued the public sector or dismissed ANY public service. I have simply pointed out how it is financed. This is NOT RELATED to any social worth, it is just a fact.

As I have pointed out previously the statement from my LA pension fund states that they are in funds and do not foresee a short fall.

And I have pointed you to the evidence that there is a massive and growing shortfall in LA pension funds taken as a whole. Name your particular fund and I will research for you what the situation is with it.

Taken to its extreem, the only people who have the right to consider themselves productive are those who manufacture goods (not services) which are all sold for export.

Not correct. Anyone producing goods and services which sell for more than they cost to obtain is "productive" in an economic sense. Again, this is NOT A VALUE judgement on public services, it is simply an economic fact.

Anyone else is not paying 'real' tax, merely recycling the currency.

That is largely correct. It's a fact. Why do you hate it so much!!!!!!!???????

I would happily take home my current net salary and not, by your standards, pretend to pay tax and national insurance

There would be no difference if you did. It is for administrative ease, treating all workers the same with regard to tax and NI, that you do not. Again, why does this upset you so much that you take a simple description of an accounting twiddle as a personal affront to your own value to society? The two are NOT connected.

 

[Mithras]

You constantly devalue the public sector, Santa Paws, your dismissal of essential services, along with those who claim that they worked in the public sector and consider us to be idle and overpaid. As I have pointed out previously the statement from my LA pension fund states that they are in funds and do not foresee a short fall.

I don't know why some public sector workers have this tendency to take things so personally. Reform of the public sector is of interest to every member of society, and every member of society has a right to be involved in it.

The current pension system is unsustainable - that is why the retirement age has been raised and annuities cut. Public sector pensions are also unsustainable. I find the attitude of some who simply want their pension because they think they are somehow more entitled than private sector workers (who have been subject to the full, unsheltered effects of the recession) really very selfish. Surely if you are working for the public sector, you should have some notion of working for the greater good?

If public sector pension provision continued the way it is, it would bankrupt the taxpayer, or at least leave no-one else with the ability to save for their retirement while they funded it. Yes, the banking system and shareholder veto on ridiculously high salaries for underperming executives needs to be reformed too, but that is a seperate issue. It does not at all remove the issue of unsustainable and over-generous (when compared to the private sector) public sector pensions.

 

[perfect11s]

Ive had some concerns for a number of years about our public sector like is it good value , provides good service etc I was willing to give most of it the benifit of the doubt , not now the posts on here make me think its staffed mostly by selfcenterd greedy and
arogant people with a lack of judgement and its high time its overhauled, More cuts please, preferably those on salarys of £30k or more and anyone with a clipboard and or not in a uniform .....

 

[cptrayes]

As I have pointed out previously the statement from my LA pension fund states that they are in funds and do not foresee a short fall.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...overnment-pension-gap-balloons-to-71.5bn.html

There are two possibilities here.
EITHER
The statement that you have been given indicates that they do not see any shortfall in the pension payments which will be made to you personally
OR
You are in one particular tiny fund for your bit of your Local Authority which really does have enough money in it to pay all its commitments for the foreseeable future, including poor future growth and increasing lifespans.

Whichever, it's irrelevant. You are either:

Expecting the tax payer to fund the entire deficit so that the workers in Birmingham and other deficit schemes (most of them) can continue to have the same pension as your fund can afford you to have (and which the taxpayer cannot hope to get the likes of).
OR
You are prepared to keep your pension and see a person in Birmingham doing exactly the same job as you with the same terms, conditions and employer (the Government) get a much worse pension than you.

Either way, that would seem pretty selfish to me.

 

[YorksG]

I don't know why some public sector workers have this tendency to take things so personally. Reform of the public sector is of interest to every member of society, and every member of society has a right to be involved in it.

In your case Mithras perhaps it is because you have consistantly claimed that you have knowlege of LA working and the lazy ways exhibited there, based on your experience of what appears to be one legal department and I think that may say more about members of your profession than it does about most public sector workers.

 

[dieseldog]

We don't BELIEVE we are paying your wages. We ARE paying your wages.

[/url]

Of course you are paying the Public Sector wages ..... Because.... you are using the Public Sector - or do you believe you should just get it for free? That no one in the Public Sector should get paid a wage, maybe community service is the way forward?

Maybe only companies that won't charge should be allowed to take over the Public Service when it is outsourced.

 

[fburton]

Take a deep breath and read carefully, this is really complicated No wonder economists earn a lot.

...

Gone to sleep yet ??

So... to whom is the debt that's causing all the current misery owed? I don't think we actually got to the bottom of that one.

 

[fburton]

Parity between public and private sector jobs in terms of pay, conditions, perks and pensions is something I would support. It seems only fair. Could it be made to work? Or would the public sector workers go in a big huff?

(Speaking as a public sector worker myself, who didn't support the strike.)

 

[at work]

What is it with you people that you cannot accept that what you do is wholly financed by the private sector? It's not a crime! It's just a fact of life.

Actually - I agree with you. But what finaces us all is industry. I heard an old industrialist speak a few years back and what he basically said is that all the service industries (i.e. shops, banks, beauty parlours, hotel chains) are just pushing around the money made from things Other People produce. Service industries - including those wonderful collapsing finance houses known as banks, produce nothing.

So - unless you are producing something useful as in mining something, making something, growing food etc - you too are being financed.

 

[BeesKnees]

Of course you are paying the Public Sector wages ..... Because.... you are using the Public Sector - or do you believe you should just get it for free? That no one in the Public Sector should get paid a wage, maybe community service is the way forward?

Maybe only companies that won't charge should be allowed to take over the Public Service when it is outsourced.

Please stop the hysterical nonsense! Most people on here, including SantaPaws and Mithras, have NOT made any value judgement on the public sector services, other than to quote their own experience or to confirm that we do need the PS, we just need to re-think how it is financed.

Really, anyone with a modicum of education ought to be able to understand the arguments made without resorting to melodramatic irrationality. Argue your case if you have one, with reason and facts.

Answer me this - do you think it's fair for people who earn less than you and who do not have a pension of their own to pay for your pension?

And if you do, why do you think it is reasonable?

 

[dieseldog]

Please stop the hysterical nonsense! Most people on here, including SantaPaws and Mithras, have NOT made any value judgement on the public sector services, other than to quote their own experience or to confirm that we do need the PS, we just need to re-think how it is financed.

Really, anyone with a modicum of education ought to be able to understand the arguments made without resorting to melodramatic irrationality. Argue your case if you have one, with reason and facts.

Answer me this - do you think it's fair for people who earn less than you and who do not have a pension of their own to pay for your pension?

And if you do, why do you think it is reasonable?

Why was that hysterical? Santa Paws was the one using CAPS. Far more hysterical than myself. He was stating that he paid Public Sector wages - I agreed with him. So is it Santa or myself who is now lacking education. Do you think you could possibly have a discussion without insulting people?

And yes I do think it is fair that people who earn less than a public sector employee should pay taxes. With your argument everyone should be on an equal wage, should someone who is a cashier in Tescos be paid the same amount as a director of HBOS? Should they get the same wage as yourself? I would be for a system where we all earned the same wage, we all contributed the same amount and we all got the same benefits - but thats not reality because it would never work. I don't have children, yet I've paid for your kids education, and child allowance - I don't agree with that at all, I've never been unemployed, had any form of tax credit but I'm not sat ranting on a forum (IN CAPS) about how unfair that is - I just pay it.

 

[fburton]

I would be for a system where we all earned the same wage, we all contributed the same amount and we all got the same benefits - but thats not reality because it would never work.

Don't you think people should be rewarded for working hard, doing particularly unpleasant or dangerous jobs, having to bear responsibility, etc.? I do - although I also think some of the pay differentials are obscene.

I don't have children, yet I've paid for your kids education, and child allowance - I don't agree with that at all, I've never been unemployed, had any form of tax credit but I'm not sat ranting on a forum (IN CAPS) about how unfair that is - I just pay it.

I believe we all benefit, as a society, from other people's children being educated - for a number of reasons. Imo, it's also right that poorer families are helped to bring up children (so maybe the benefit should be means-tested), though not to the extent of encouraging an unsustainable birthrate.

 

[dieseldog]

Don't you think people should be rewarded for working hard, doing particularly unpleasant or dangerous jobs, having to bear responsibility, etc.? I do - although I also think some of the pay differentials are obscene.


I believe we all benefit, as a society, from other people's children being educated - for a number of reasons. Imo, it's also right that poorer families are helped to bring up children (so maybe the benefit should be means-tested), though not to the extent of encouraging an unsustainable birthrate.

The system would never work as some people do work harder than others in more pressurised/dangerous jobs etc. If everyone could have an equal job and earn equal money and contribute equally and take the same amount out I'm sure it would work great

 

[Dirtymare]

I believe we all benefit, as a society, from other people's children being educated - for a number of reasons. Imo, it's also right that poorer families are helped to bring up children (so maybe the benefit should be means-tested), though not to the extent of encouraging an unsustainable birthrate.

Totally agree with this......

 

[cptrayes]

Actually - I agree with you. But what finaces us all is industry. I heard an old industrialist speak a few years back and what he basically said is that all the service industries (i.e. shops, banks, beauty parlours, hotel chains) are just pushing around the money made from things Other People produce. Service industries - including those wonderful collapsing finance houses known as banks, produce nothing.

So - unless you are producing something useful as in mining something, making something, growing food etc - you too are being financed.

There is a lot of truth in this. We need more people to make things in this country and we need to import less of our stuff from China.

 

[BeesKnees]

or do you believe you should just get it for free? That no one in the Public Sector should get paid a wage, maybe community service is the way forward?

Maybe only companies that won't charge should be allowed to take over the Public Service when it is outsourced.

This is the hysterical nonsense I was referring to, the 'you clearly don't value the public sector' type of posts from yourself and others, that gets trotted out as soon as anyone dares to try and have a discussion about the public sector. The public sector belongs to all of us, not just those that work in it, and therefore we have a perfectly justified right to discuss it without being accused of wanting to destroy it! That kind of irrational response is as insulting as anything I may have said.

And you still did not answer my question. I didn't ask if low paid private sector workers should pay taxes. I asked if you think it is fair for them to pay for your pension, when they can't afford one for themselves?

 

[cptrayes]

Of course you are paying the Public Sector wages ..... Because.... you are using the Public Sector - or do you believe you should just get it for free?

No of course not. I have not suggested any such thing and neither has anyone else. Quite frankly, it's a stupid question.

That no one in the Public Sector should get paid a wage, maybe community service is the way forward?

possibly even more stupid a suggestion than the question above.


Where do you get these dumb questions from because they certainly aren't anywhere in what I'm writing!?

You were insistent that you paid towards your own pensions. I pointed out that you do not, and how it is that you do not. END. That's all I said. Nothing about whether you do your jobs well, deserve what you are paid, provide an invaluable service which holds society together. NOTHING.

Why do you persist in attempting to put value judgements that I have not made and will not make into my mouth?