Public sector pensions

fburton said:
So... to whom is the debt that's causing all the current misery owed? I don't think we actually got to the bottom of that one. :rolleyes:
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The debt is not causing the pension misery that this thread is discussing. That has been caused by people living 4-5 times longer after their retirement date than they used to.

The private sector adjustments were made some time ago. I feel for public sector workers, who will be geniunely worse off after their pension contributions are increased, but it is no less than has aready happened years ago in the private sector in a much worse way, and it has to happen.


To answer your question China owns most of the world's debt that is not already owed by one indebted country to another (Spain owes Greece billions and Greece owes Spain billions, for example. Meanwhile, the Chinese have just bought the port of Piraeus (Athens) and own a subtantial amount of America). The Chinese, in spite of much lower wages than this country, average a saving rate of 30% of their take home pay. Our average is negative. They own us.
 
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I haven't had the time to read every post so I may be repeating what has already been said so forgive me if this is the case however I do wish to add to this discussion. I trained as a nurse and worked in the NHS for 11 years before moving to the private sector 20 years ago so I feel that I am able to comment to a degree on both.

When I left the NHS I had a final salary pension, at the time I was unaware what this meant so when advised to move it into a private pension I did so. This was a huge mistake as the NHS pension was widely accepted as being one of the best in the country. Some 10 years later I was able to sue and recover the money I lost, this I think shows that the NHS pension is very highly regarded. At no time did I believe that I was poorly paid but to compensate I would have a really good pension when I retired (when did this belief start?). I should also add that when I joined the private sector I had to take a pay drop! I did not complain about this but decided that it was a risk worth taking (my choice).

Since I have been in the private sector I have had several final salary pensions. In my last company they had to review the situation as the fund was not sufficient to cover the future outgoings; the final salary pension was stopped, company contributions were reduced and each company member had to increase their own contributions. I know that this has happened in a number of companies in recent years.

What I have just described is exactly the same as what is now happening in the public sector, but this happened four or five years ago. Of course none of us liked it but when the figures were shown there was clearly no choice but to change. Whilst some people in the company were highly paid others were not (the vast majority), again similar to the NHS. Certainly the admins and lower level support staff are no more highly paid than the public sector and many earnt below the average wage for this country.

I struggle to understand why the public sector cannot understand that they are not being penalised but the system cannot take the strain due to the changing environment (economic situation, increasing life expectancy, etc). Those complaining have not been able to explain where the money should come from only that they are 'entitled' to continue as before. No one is entitled to anything, it is naive to think otherwise.

I agree with previous comments about peoples views being entrenched and so opposing that they will never meet however I had a similar discussion with a teacher who had moved from the private sector (business not teaching) to the public one, she was in agreement with my views but was much stronger in voicing them.
 
Santa Paws said:
No of course not. I have not suggested any such thing and neither has anyone else. Quite frankly, it's a stupid question.



possibly even more stupid a suggestion than the question above.


Where do you get these dumb questions from because they certainly aren't anywhere in what I'm writing!?

You were insistent that you paid towards your own pensions. I pointed out that you do not, and how it is that you do not. END. That's all I said. Nothing about whether you do your jobs well, deserve what you are paid, provide an invaluable service which holds society together. NOTHING.

Why do you persist in attempting to put value judgements that I have not made and will not make into my mouth?
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Stop insulting people, it belittles your arguments, if you can not post without calling me dumb and stupid maybe you should refrain from posting?.

I have not been insistent anywhere that I pay towards my own pension - I understand your point of view that my pension that I pay into I am doing with taxpayers money - which has been paid to me for providing a service. Just like you don't pay into your pension as you are using money that has been paid to you for doing a service too. Unless of course you are in the small majority that works in the mining industry in this country. Everyones wages and pensions are paid for by someone else.

You say you want a public service, you say you are happy to pay for the public servants so what exactly is your issue? The fact that you are having to pay them a realistic package to do the job? That public servants aren't actually prepared to work for a pittance - is that your problem?
 
dieseldog said:
You say you want a public service, you say you are happy to pay for the public servants so what exactly is your issue? The fact that you are having to pay them a realistic package to do the job? That public servants aren't actually prepared to work for a pittance - is that your problem?
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O.F.F.S!

My problem is that public sector workers, in sptite of the fact that they are in the main paid a salary at or often above what they could earn in the private sector, withdrew their labour a week or so back in order to prevent a change to their pension which, even after the changes is still FAR AND AWAY better than anything that the taxpayers who pay for their pension will ever have. The Public Sector should be fairly paid. At the moment, their total remuneration is VERY unfair because the pension is worth so much money and Private Sector workers do not have anything like it.

I can't believe that you really needed me to repeat that Dieseldog, I must have said it twenty times already on this thread and the JC one. I shall, however, as you request, refrain from calling this last question of yours stupid as well.

Everyone outside the public sector is involved in some way in adding value/money into the system. When I worked in a shop I helped my employer take a jumper that cost £3.33 and sell it for £10 and the shop paid tax on the difference. They also paid me out of the difference and I paid tax on that payment. And the customer paid VAT on the jumper. So between us all, we increased the amount available to be spent on the Public Sector by that amount. All economic activities in the private sector increase the amount of money available to be spent on the public sector.

This discussion has been all about how Public Sector activities do not add to the amount of money which is available to run the Public Sector, and how unfair current Public Sector pensions are now that they are almost completely unavailable to the Private sector.

Government Health Warning:
NO VALUE JUDGEMENT ON THE WORTH OF THE PUBLIC SECTOR IS CONTAINED IN THIS POST
 
dieseldog said:
Stop insulting people, it belittles your arguments, if you can not post without calling me dumb and stupid maybe you should refrain from posting?.
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Dieseldog I have not called you stupid or dumb. I have called two questions that you asked stupid and dumb. I'm sorry, but I think they were. They were also phrased in a deliberately deliberately provocational manner, so please don't preach to me about whether I should post or not.
 
Santa Paws said:
O.F.F.S!

My problem is that public sector workers, in sptite of the fact that they are in the main paid a salary at or often above what they could earn in the private sector, withdrew their labour a week or so back in order to prevent a change to their pension which, even after the changes is still FAR AND AWAY better than anything that the taxpayers who pay for their pension will ever have. The Public Sector should be fairly paid. At the moment, their total remuneration is VERY unfair because the pension is worth so much money and Private Sector workers do not have anything like it.

I can't believe that you really needed me to repeat that Dieseldog, I must have said it twenty times already on this thread and the JC one. I shall, however, as you request, refrain from calling this last question of yours stupid as well.

Everyone outside the public sector is involved in some way in adding value/money into the system. When I worked in a shop I helped my employer take a jumper that cost £3.33 and sell it for £10 and the shop paid tax on the difference. They also paid me out of the difference and I paid tax on that payment. And the customer paid VAT on the jumper. So between us all, we increased the amount available to be spent on the Public Sector by that amount. All economic activities in the private sector increase the amount of money available to be spent on the public sector.

This discussion has been all about how Public Sector activities do not add to the amount of money which is available to run the Public Sector, and how unfair current Public Sector pensions are now that they are almost completely unavailable to the Private sector.

Government Health Warning:
NO VALUE JUDGEMENT ON THE WORTH OF THE PUBLIC SECTOR IS CONTAINED IN THIS POST
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There you go with the swearing and shouting IN CAPS again. Please just one post without resulting to bullying tactics would be nice, do you think you can manage that?
 
dieseldog said:
You say you want a public service, you say you are happy to pay for the public servants so what exactly is your issue? The fact that you are having to pay them a realistic package to do the job? That public servants aren't actually prepared to work for a pittance - is that your problem?
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Unfortunately it appears that public servants are not prepared to be paid a realistic package. On average they are paid and receive far greater benefits than those in the private sector and this is not realistic!
 
a040.gif


Bliss, this is...

Agree to disagree, then go find something much more exciting to do....
 
BeesKnees said:
But this is so much fun ;)
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I have to agree.. but it's moved from the usual healthy debate to derogatory insults, as it always seems to on forums.

No-one wants to back down, so they chide each other backwards and forwards, then at some point someone will spit their dummy out, and report said thread to the FC, and it will be removed.

..a week or so later will see it all happening again! :D
 
Scoutie said:
I struggle to understand why the public sector cannot understand that they are not being penalised but the system cannot take the strain due to the changing environment (economic situation, increasing life expectancy, etc). Those complaining have not been able to explain where the money should come from only that they are 'entitled' to continue as before. No one is entitled to anything, it is naive to think otherwise.
.
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Thak you Scoutie for your considered post.

I can understand why PS works wish to keep the very valuable pension system they have. Why wouldn't you? But I am yet to hear to a valid argument as to why they should legitimately have it, and how it should be paid for.

So far the reasoning has been:
Because we work hard
Because we have demanding jobs
Because we do unpaid overtime
Because we were promised it
Because we are more qualified and have more responsibility than people who work on a till
Because we could earn more in the private sector
Because the bankers and politicians are to blame for the economic crisis
Because you'll be in trouble when you want care on the NHS and it's all been privatised

All of this is either also true of the private sector workers, not actually based on current stats, or a bit facile.

I just want someone to to explain to me why they think it is fair for them to have a very generous pension, funded by people who can't afford one of their own?
 
DragonSleigh-Bells said:
I have to agree.. but it's moved from the usual healthy debate to derogatory insults, as it always seems to on forums.

No-one wants to back down, so they chide each other backwards and forwards, then at some point someone will spit their dummy out, and report said thread to the FC, and it will be removed.

..a week or so later will see it all happening again! :D
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I think there's frustration, due to people not engaging with the actual debate but rather choosing to make sweeping comments that don't relate to what has been said. How do you have a healthy debate with that?
 
dieseldog said:
There you go with the swearing and shouting IN CAPS again. Please just one post without resulting to bullying tactics would be nice, do you think you can manage that?
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Do you think you can manage to stop asking me questions as if I have said that the entire public sector are lazy b******s who don't seserve half the pay they get and should all be sacked?

Cos quite frankly, I'm sick of it and I don't understand how I can stop you without the emphasis in my replies. If you can manage to do that, please, then I will have no need to "bully" you by writing in capital letters.

If you are genuinely feeling bullied please report me to the Fat Controller. And if you are that upset by the way I answer you, please stop asking me questions. And if my answers to other peoples questions upset you please, please, please, press the ignore button so that you do not have to see them.

ps Scoutie what a great post.
 
Santa Paws said:
Do you think you can manage to stop asking me questions as if I have said that the entire public sector are lazy b******s who don't seserve half the pay they get and should all be sacked?

Cos quite frankly, I'm sick of it and I don't understand how I can stop you without the emphasis in my replies. If you can manage to do that, please, then I will have no need to "bully" you by writing in capital letters.

If you are genuinely feeling bullied please report me to the Fat Controller. And if you are that upset by the way I answer you, please stop asking me questions. And if my answers to other peoples questions upset you please, please, please, press the ignore button so that you do not have to see them.

ps Scoutie what a great post.
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It's geting more polarised between us in the productive economy and the PS lot I guess when the economy picks up and we can ballance the books the PS lot filling there boots wont seem quite so bad, and hopefully we will have had some proper cuts not like the half hearted tinkering round the edges like we have seen so far !!!the thing that amazes me about these threads is the PS lot keep reminding us how much they are getting and as a result people who were previously blissfully unaware of the public sector pay and pensions are comparing and getting sick of the wingeing and worse looking at them with a critical eye , so as before stop digging you are doing your case no good ....
 
BeesKnees said:
I think there's frustration, due to people not engaging with the actual debate but rather choosing to make sweeping comments that don't relate to what has been said. How do you have a healthy debate with that?
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Very true. It's why so often I will not join in at all as I know where it will go, or I'll say me piece then just leave it.
 
YuletideG said:
Mithras said:
I don't know why some public sector workers have this tendency to take things so personally. Reform of the public sector is of interest to every member of society, and every member of society has a right to be involved in it.

In your case Mithras perhaps it is because you have consistantly claimed that you have knowlege of LA working and the lazy ways exhibited there, based on your experience of what appears to be one legal department and I think that may say more about members of your profession than it does about most public sector workers.
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You're not going to annoy me saying that! I'm not particularly fond of a lot of fellow members of my profession either. Though to be fair, in my experience in the LA, there was inter-departmental working (endless consultation of course) and some of the inertia and incompetence outwith my department was of a level I had never previously deemed existed. Other local authorities in other areas may of course be far better.

But I have also worked in a national agency, which was public sector. It was actually quite tightly managed, (my department detected fraudulent or incompetent applications) probably because its job was to allocate millions of pounds of funding. And I've also done some part time academic work, which is public sector (but I actually found quite good compared to the LA).

I have to say, in relation to your other post above, I haven't been scathing about the public sector particularly. There are bad examples in all areas. But this doesn't mean the public sector is some special case, beyond criticism or modernisation. I would say though that in my field, working in the public sector for too long is recongised as making you a bit unemployable. That is another reason I didn't stay too long. If you stayed longer than about 18 months, you would struggle to convince a private sector company to take you on. And thats nothing to do with specialism, and all to do with working practises. This isn't a criticism by me of the public sector btw, simply an illustration of the realities of working in the private sector.
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For me,the fundamental point is that if a private sector business makes a serious mistake ,it costs them and maybe they go bust. If a public sector industry ****s up ,private sector businesses pay and maybe go bust.The public sector have been a law unto themselves for far too long.
 
BeesKnees said:
T
But I am yet to hear to a valid argument as to why they should legitimately have it,



own?
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because it is part of the terms and conditions of their employment.
If you don't attch pensions to public sector jobs what happens then? Are people left to make their own pension arrangement? If so then that is fine for the ones that take that responsibility. However what happens to those, and there are equally many in the private sector, who don't make pension arrangements? They get to 66 or whatever age and draw their state pension. That is their only income so what then? It is topped up with various credits/benefits? Who pays for those credits? The private sector workers through their taxes or public sector workers through taxes on their earnings and on their annuities. (and yes public sector workers do pay tax and NI. Most of us realised that we did when we saw those little words on our payslip ie "tax paid". (Please don't reiterate the tedious explanation that public sector workers don't pay tax for the "n"th time.)
 
paddy555 said:
If you don't attch pensions to public sector jobs what happens then? Are people left to make their own pension arrangement? If so then that is fine for the ones that take that responsibility. However what happens to those, and there are equally many in the private sector, who don't make pension arrangements? They get to 66 or whatever age and draw their state pension. That is their only income so what then? It is topped up with various credits/benefits? Who pays for those credits? The private sector workers through their taxes or public sector workers through taxes on their earnings and on their annuities.
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And how do you think ANY of what you have written differs from the private sector who pay for those pensions? That's the whole point. They have something worth a total MINT, even after the proposed reductions, which the people who are paying for it cannot have.

It would be a damned sight cheaper to pay them top up benefits than the pensions that the ones earning professional level salaries get. Nothing much would change for the bottom end.
 
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paddy555 said:
because it is part of the terms and conditions of their employment.
If you don't attch pensions to public sector jobs what happens then? Are people left to make their own pension arrangement? If so then that is fine for the ones that take that responsibility. However what happens to those, and there are equally many in the private sector, who don't make pension arrangements? They get to 66 or whatever age and draw their state pension. That is their only income so what then? It is topped up with various credits/benefits? Who pays for those credits? The private sector workers through their taxes or public sector workers through taxes on their earnings and on their annuities. (and yes public sector workers do pay tax and NI. Most of us realised that we did when we saw those little words on our payslip ie "tax paid". (Please don't reiterate the tedious explanation that public sector workers don't pay tax for the "n"th time.)
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UM I think its called equality !!!and on your other point Im not sure how much longer the state will be able to provide for the feckless and irisposable who spend every penny , on drinking smoking gambling and tat from argos during there working lifes and then expect the state to provide nursing care and free this and that , that others have saved to provide for in their old age ???? so we all need to put something aside !!
 
paddy555 said:
because it is part of the terms and conditions of their employment.
If you don't attch pensions to public sector jobs what happens then? Are people left to make their own pension arrangement? If so then that is fine for the ones that take that responsibility. However what happens to those, and there are equally many in the private sector, who don't make pension arrangements? They get to 66 or whatever age and draw their state pension. That is their only income so what then? It is topped up with various credits/benefits? Who pays for those credits? The private sector workers through their taxes or public sector workers through taxes on their earnings and on their annuities. (and yes public sector workers do pay tax and NI. Most of us realised that we did when we saw those little words on our payslip ie "tax paid". (Please don't reiterate the tedious explanation that public sector workers don't pay tax for the "n"th time.)
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Thank you Paddy55 for making a case at least. Interesting though that you only quoted half my sentence, the other half being "and how it should be paid for?".

You are right of course that people without pension provision are a drain on the state, but the reality is that it is less of a drain than paying for public sector pensions, quite simply because the amounts provided are under credits and state pension are less.

I am going to be tiresome and reiterate the PS works don't really pay tax and NI. Yes you receive a payslip that says tax and NI paid on it. Did you ever have that money? No like all PAYE it is taken from your employer, in your case the state. So the state says on a piece of paper given to you 'we paid your tax and have given it to........ourselves'. You see? It isn't real, it's smoke and mirrors. It never went anywhere, it's just in the tax pot, in the treasury. That pot is no richer after the paper transaction than it was before.

In my case, my employer has to ring up HMRC and make a payment each month from the business account, which has money in it from the services we provide and which people pay for, to cover my tax and NI. That is money the
state now have that they didn't have before.

The bottom line is if the public sector has a legal right to the pension provision as it stands then they should be in court fighting it out, not striking.

And I still haven't heard how you think your pension should be paid for?
 
And besides which

NOBODY

has suggested the total removal of public sector pensions.

Public sector workers struck over reductions which would still leave them with MASSIVELY better pensions than the private sector who finance them.


ps so sorry if my capitals upset anyone but this dumb and stupid text editor on HHO does not give any easy way to get italics, underline or bold to emphasize a word.
 
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Pensions are not generally part of an employment contract. Check your contract, I think you may find that it is not there. This is normal.
 
Santa Paws said:
ps so sorry if my capitals upset anyone but this dumb and stupid text editor on HHO does give any easy way to get italics, underline or bold to emphasize a word.
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SP if you use the advanced button you or if you quote someone you are in the advanced edit options where you just highlight the words you want and then click on the bold, underline or italic icons at the top :)
 
Off at a tangent again, but as this seems the place to air niggles...

Are road diggers / navvies (or whatever they are called these days... road maintenance operatives probably!) generally public or private sector? Every time I pass a team of them in the car, all but one are 'resting' - chatting amongst themselves, on the mobile, or wandering about in a leisurely fashion. That's in this country. In contrast, whenever I'm in the Netherlands or Germany, all of them have their heads down and appear to be working very hard. Even the ones that aren't doing stuff with their hands are striding about purposefully. If these are private UK companies, how on earth do they manage to prosper with such an (apparently) lackadaisical approach to work?
 
fburton said:
Off at a tangent again, but as this seems the place to air niggles...

Are road diggers / navvies (or whatever they are called these days... road maintenance operatives probably!) generally public or private sector? Every time I pass a team of them in the car, all but one are 'resting' - chatting amongst themselves, on the mobile, or wandering about in a leisurely fashion. That's in this country. In contrast, whenever I'm in the Netherlands or Germany, all of them have their heads down and appear to be working very hard. Even the ones that aren't doing stuff with their hands are striding about purposefully. If these are private UK companies, how on earth do they manage to prosper with such an (apparently) lackadaisical approach to work?
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They are actualy practising to be nurses in a dementure ward :D
 
So much for the private sector,i bought a settee and armchair from a well known firm,clearly from money that SP pays me through her taxes.After weeks of delivery delay the furniture arrived,but they sent the wrong chair.How is that for efficiency.And i get fed up trying to buy goods from very bored staff who would clearly prefer to be elsewhere.Some people decline to put money into their pensions by choice,and then complain when they have little other than what the state provides when they retire.Also all the people who fritter their money in their working lives can look forward to care home fees being paid.I have always been careful and saved,and when i eventually retire,that is if i live long enough to enjoy retirement after working all those extra years the Govt..have heaped on us,my savings and pension will be diverted to paying my care home fees.
 
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