Puppy and young bitch constantly play fighting - reaching the end of my tether!!

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Toast

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Having had a rough year, OH and i have had to move back in with my parents for a little while. We have a 6 month old Rottie pup and they have an approximately 2yo Collie bitch. Its not ideal as the house is small but they get on well, if anything too well.
From the moment they get up to the minute they go to bed they're play fighting. I wouldn't mind but my rott hasn't an ounce of grace about her and with the both of them careering about the house she crashes into furniture, things get broken.. culminating in the collie having to be shut in another room to stop them. Which i don't like doing as its unfair on her to keep getting kicked out all the time. My rott has a crate but the house is so small it only fits in one part of the living room and if it isn't bed time and there's people in the living room, if she's asked to go in her crate she wails like a banshee. And i cant leave her to her own devices in the hallway as it would be totally irresponsible to leave a puppy unsupervised.
its a difficult situation as my dad is older, and i think was hoping for a quieter life once all the kids had left home. Although he doesn't mind having the dogs in the house, the constant rough housing is becoming a nightmare. I thought they'd settle down after a few days but we've been here 2 weeks now and they're relentless.
Am i being to hasty? should i give them more time to settle? My pup has always been the over sociable type, constantly pestering other dogs to play.

I should mention that neither are hyperactive so to speak, they're both on a good diet and get plenty of exercise.
 
Oh I feel your pain :)
I have a 14 week old JRT, a 3 yo Labradoodle & a 4yo Springer.
The puppy spends most of his life hanging from the spaniels ears or bundling my 38kg Labradoodle all over the floor.

At this age they just love to play fight and it is good for them. I do put my JRT down for a nap in his crate now and then though to give my older dogs a break.

It is very wearing after a while....but they do grow out of the constant playing. Stig (my labradoodle) still occasionally liked to play before we got Badger (the JRT)...but both of the older dogs just like their walks and their snoozes.

I can't really offer any advice other than to say the puppy will eventually drop the need for constant play.
Have you thought of a kong stuffed with treats?
 
Do you have a canine creche anywhere near you? You could then let your pup go there a few days a week, which should get rid of your pups excess energy, and curb the novelty of having another doggie friend! Alternatively, is there a dog sitter who could take your girl a few days a week to break the cycle? Try squirting water at her to break them up when they get too heated together!!
 
pm Cayla for her crate training guide. You say the dog squeals like a banshee but if properly introduced and trained to see the crate as something positive it can be invaluable. In your situation a crate is a must for time out.
 
Stand between them, use your eye, your voice and your pointing finger. Sort them out, it's do-able. Should anyone decide to defy or disobey you, you grab them under their jowl, you pull them up off the ground and you explain that you're pissed off with them. Mean it! ;):D

I've a Cocker puppy that wants to act the fool with the world. She now sees things in a different light.

Alec.
 
NeverSayNever said:
pm Cayla for her crate training guide. You say the dog squeals like a banshee but if properly introduced and trained to see the crate as something positive it can be invaluable. In your situation a crate is a must for time out.
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She is fully crate trained. She sleeps there at night, has access to it all day and goes in if we need to nip out for half an hour. It is a positive place for her, i cant really help it if she can see everyone else and other dog in the room and feels shes missing out on something. Not even a stuffed kong will keep her quiet if there's other things going on. The crate is simply too big to put anywhere else in our 2 up 2 down detached sadly.
 
Alec Swan said:
Stand between them, use your eye, your voice and your pointing finger. Sort them out, it's do-able. Should anyone decide to defy or disobey you, you grab them under their jowl, you pull them up off the ground and you explain that you're pissed off with them. Mean it! ;):D

I've a Cocker puppy that wants to act the fool with the world. She now sees things in a different light.

Alec.
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I have to do this at least ten times a day Alec, It'll work to some extent but is soon forgotten and pup will be back to harassing the collie. Which is when the poor lass ends up getting kicked out of the lounge! :(
 
What's the point or pleasure in having a dog that only 'behaves' through fear? There are other more positive ways to train dogs...
 
Toast said:
She is fully crate trained. She sleeps there at night, has access to it all day and goes in if we need to nip out for half an hour. It is a positive place for her, i cant really help it if she can see everyone else and other dog in the room and feels shes missing out on something. Not even a stuffed kong will keep her quiet if there's other things going on. The crate is simply too big to put anywhere else in our 2 up 2 down detached sadly.
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ok, Id gently suggest to you that she isnt 'fully ' crate trained if you can't put her in it unless there are no distractions. She needs to learn that when you say enough, you mean enough. I still suggest to ask Cayla about this ;) My young dog can be very ott and a complete pain the ass with the others - when 6 dogs are let out together to go for a pee and the youngster of the pack is intent on bouncing on every one else's head, that's not acceptable. I've used a plastic bottle with stones in to shake to combine with my 'enough' command. It works, because the pup detests it, and now I dont have to use it at all, just the command and she wanders off to do her own thing. However the problem with it is if the other dog is sensitive to it, you are affecting them both. Have you tried a water pistol? How is your down-stay command? In our house, when we say, enough - lie down. Everyone knows the time for mucking about is over and finds a quiet place to lie.
 
My mum got a ridgie puppy a couple of months after I got my bitch. They have never lived in the same house but if I go to see my mum the dog comes too.

For a good 6 months - a year they were insane together. No nasty behaviour at all just babies playing rough with each other.

We simply refused to allow the unwanted 'play' behaviour in the house. House is for calm, garden is for hanging off each others faces / legs / tails. Have you got a secure garden you can bung them in to have their crazy time and then enforce a nap time when they are inside?

We stick to the same rules in our own house, inside time is calm time - outside time is ball time.

Now they are both about to turn 3 and have a big play when they first see each other and spent indoors time lying in a big heap infront of the fire.
 
The garden is for playing and the house is not simples:D I cant have 2 Dobes tearing about the house like mad things, if they start I just say quiet or let them out in the garden.

I often have a little dog come to stay and she is best buds with our Lancashire Heeler but they play all the time so after a suitable spell in the garden(yes they do get good walks) I keep them in separate rooms until they have settled.

You wouldnt allow unruly children to run amok in your house so why allow dogs.
 
Evie and her daughter (who is nearly 12 months old), have mad games frequently. Generally they are charging round the garden but I don't mind in the house as long as they aren't too noisy, when I've had enough they are told and they will stop. When Freya was younger I did have to put her in her crate, which is in the room with us, and that was her signal to settle down.
As neversaynever suggests it would be worth getting Cayla's puppy and crate training guide. I gave one with every puppy and all the new owners found it helpful.
 
Toast said:
I have to do this at least ten times a day Alec, It'll work to some extent but is soon forgotten .......(
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In that case, if you continue to repeat yourself, and it has no effect, then you ramp-up the treatment. It has nothing to do with violence or pain, but everything to do with gaining a dog's respect. Respect is made up, in part, of fear. Fear of your raised voice, fear of offending you, and it can be achieved by being "In Charge".

Dishing out a bol-locking to a dog, and then telling it that you're sorry, by your body language where you "acquiesce" and forgive, is no bol-locking at all. Once squared up, allow the dog a while to consider it crimes. Do the Naughty Corner if you must, it doesn't matter what it is, but when it comes to training dogs, NEVER, but NEVER square the dog up and then offer forgiveness. The dog will only ever understand you if you behave like another dog. You WILL NOT tolerate bad behaviour, not for a second. Forgiveness sends out the most awful mixed messages to a dog.

Others will tell you to use toys or to distract the puppy's attention. Nonsense. Obedience is achieved when your dog respects you. Your dog will respect you when you earn that respect. Be Top Dog.

When you have a balanced and respectful response from your dog, and over time, then you can gently, relax the pressure. It's either all the above, or it's all down to "Play time". You decide which!!

Alec.
 
How the heck does a dog know it has offended you? It has no concept of offence...I despair reading that you think it is OK to earn a dogs respect by fear. I'm not hijacking this genuine call for help and will not enter into a debate on harsh training methods. Only this week I have read an article that states the general feeling amongst professional behaviourists is that some people use force and punishment because they need to be in charge and fear losing control. A quick fix is required no matter how it is achieved...
Toast. Have you been taking your Rottie to puppy training classes? Have you tried the water pistol? How about muzzling her to stop the fighting? You sound at the end of your tether, I guess that after such a bad year and having to move back in with your dad, you really don't want to cause him any trouble. Are you starting to think the best solution would be to rehome her? I would definitely try puppy training classes and hope you have the time to continue the training at home, obviously away from the Collie. You need to get her focussing on you, and not thinking life is one long game. Training her will also tire her mentally as well as physically.
 
What LML said (I dont allow fooling around in the house) I can't be doing with my house being an extention of a play field.
And I agree with Alecs last comment to be honest, I get respect by being firm but fair, when I command and physically part 2 dogs and place them where i chose, they know not to attempt to repeat the exercise, you need to put some conviction into your commands and handling (this does not mean beat the dogs):rolleyes: or hurt their feeling or needing to shove toys in their face, but you could offer up a large raw bone to the rottie in her crate (once she has obeyed her time out/remaining in her position) as a positive......(I would not):p but over all your initial control (whatever that maybe) should carry through to any unwanted behaviour at any given time, this way you get the response of "oops, thats isn't acceptible, I know what happens now I best take my self or or lie down pronto";)
Part dogs and place them physically back in their place, block their attempts to hoon around, they will sharp get the gist that, any attempt at fooling means you are up on your feet and nipping it in the bud before contact ensues:)
 
Get a covered crate or cover the crate. Teach the 'quiet' command. And mean it and be consistent.

It sounds old school and it's not for everyone but my young dog can be a right arse and when he stayed with my friend and her pack, she used a rolled-up newspaper :p
He only has to see one now and reverts to being a lamb. He is not scared or frightened of me, I wish he bloody was!!
 
Thanks everyone, i tried kicking them out in the garden this morning and after 5 minutes watching bits of my lawn flying all over the place and plants being ripped out i had to shout them in (i wouldnt mind but the house is rented!) Since then i've repeatedly separated them when they started and backed it up with a firm 'no!' (it's taken a good 45 mins to get the message across) but they're now lying quietly at opposite ends of the room. Result!

Any tips on enforcing a quiet command? Unfortunately Ella is a really vocal dog as it is, coupled with the fact she's really persistent. So when i tell her to 'shhh!' it works momentarily but i could be repeating myself for hours.
 
You need to teach her the speak command first and then differentiate between that and 'quiet' - reward differently for each and make sure the command, cue and reward is distinct because if you don't know the difference and don't make it clear, then she definitely won't.

If you have to repeat yourself for hours, the command is not solid and she either does not understand/or there is no consequence for ignoring you, so I would go back to the drawing board on that one.
 
CaveCanem said:
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If you have to repeat yourself for hours, the command is not solid and she either does not understand/or there is no consequence for ignoring you, so I would go back to the drawing board on that one.
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A valid point. Dogs need a reason to listen to us, and there are those dogs, and I'm sorry, but Rotts can be amongst them, which tend to be a bit on the selfish side. As in the above quote, there has to be a consequence for a dog ignoring you. If the consequence is of no importance to the dog, then why should it listen? What was the advice once offered? "Speak softly, and carry a big stick". I take the stick to be figurative! ;)

Alec.
 
mine play whenever they get the chance - pretty much like yours tbh

they are 6 and 11 months... i dont mind the playing they are just very very vocal

i noramlly end up separating them but tbh when i say "enough" they usually do packl in for 30 seconds!!

i do feel your pain!!
 
noodle_ said:
mine play whenever they get the chance - pretty much like yours tbh

they are 6 and 11 months... i dont mind the playing they are just very very vocal

i noramlly end up separating them but tbh when i say "enough" they usually do packl in for 30 seconds!!

i do feel your pain!!
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The noise is so irritating isn't it! My pup is the instigator but its the collie that makes all the noise.. drives me crackers!
Im actually having a relatively quiet day though. I realised i think i was being too soft with my Rott, she's an ignorant madam. We had a couple of incidences this morning where i was leaping up to separate them every 5 minutes but eventually i was so bored of their constant noise and things getting knocked off tables/cabinets ect that i had a 'mum really means it this time' moment and i've only had to reinforce it twice since.
 
Our two springers were like this but they soon learned that play was something they were only allowed to do outside. Are you able to put them in the garden to play together? When ours are out they play constantly but once in they lay on their bed quietly. They do get plenty of exercise and are therefore ready to settle once indoors. As someone else has said use eye contact and your voice to stop this behaviour in the house.
 
Toast said:
We had a couple of incidences this morning where i was leaping up to separate them every 5 minutes but eventually i was so bored of their constant noise and things getting knocked off tables/cabinets ect that i had a 'mum really means it this time' moment and i've only had to reinforce it twice since.
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If you can differentiate between 'mum really means it this time' and when you're just getting out of your seat to get some peace and quiet and fully expect to do it again and again, then you can be sure as hell the dogs have known about the difference for a long time ;)

We're supposed to be the intelligent ones, but dogs are master readers of body language, mood and little things we could never even perceive, it's better to 'mean it' once or twice rather than not meaning it lots of times, consistency is key (said the owner of a noisy, bolshy, overly intelligent brat) and it is a lot fairer on the dogs, options/ambiguity is not good for them.


Tough mammy (not emotional, bad tempered mammy) will get a lot more done, especially at this age when she will be starting to push you a bit.
 
Toast said:
The noise is so irritating isn't it! My pup is the instigator but its the collie that makes all the noise.. drives me crackers!
Im actually having a relatively quiet day though. I realised i think i was being too soft with my Rott, she's an ignorant madam. We had a couple of incidences this morning where i was leaping up to separate them every 5 minutes but eventually i was so bored of their constant noise and things getting knocked off tables/cabinets ect that i had a 'mum really means it this time' moment and i've only had to reinforce it twice since.
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yep its the irritating whining the puppy makes when he''s playing.... he cant help it as my other dog growls....but its normally started when they come down the stairs together its his cue to pounce on my older dog :rolleyes:

i do also find when i really loose it and shout at them "QUIET"..!!!! they look at me as if to say "ohhh gone too far now..."... they settle.

has taken pup till 11 months old though to realise what it means when i yell!! :D

it isnt easy you have my sympathy!! they are a PITA sometimes!
 
Just to add, to go back to Superhot and Alec, it would be lovely if all dogs could be trained using only all 'positive' methods but I don't think anybody can realistically say that NO dog EVER needs compulsion (I don't mean battering a dog, I mean, you WILL do this, you MUST do that, and set up the situation in a very controlled way where the dog cannot fail, using a lead, using a confined space, using your body, whatever.)

To say otherwise is to say that a classroom full of 30 children from different households and different backgrounds will all filter information and learn in exactly the same way and I think we all know that is not true.
One word in one way would make, say, a nervous Border Collie's world collapse around its' ears, the same would make a Rottie sit back in a chair and say 'Really?! Thrill me!'
Allowing a certain type of dog to choose its own behaviour (been there, cocked that up) can be a recipe for disaster.

I think it is weird that pressure and release seems to be fine with training horses but constitutes abuse with dog training.
 
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I do agree with you CaveCanem. I wasn't advocating for a moment that you train dogs in a soft lovey dovey way. Use of voice can be a brilliant tool to let your dog know you mean business. Alecs post read as if he was suggesting physical pain, picking a dog up by its jowels, and I don't apologise for finding this behaviour abuse. When I took my young Lab to a local gun dog training session, another handler couldn't get his dog to instantly carry out his command. So he put his fingers inside the pups mouth, dug his nails in to its gums and lifted the dog up and hung it there. Totally unnecessary behaviour from the handler. What did the pup learn other than to be very fearful of his owner? I told him that if I saw him do that again, I would get hold of him by his balls and squeeze very hard till he yelled. Yes, there are times when you need to be firm, but there is never ever any excuse for cruelty.
Anyway, to get back to the initial problem, has using a squirt of water been tried or any other of the other suggestions, and if so, what was the result?
Endless play cannot be allowed to take place, but I suspect the Rottie could equally be feeling unsettled with the recent move and dogs are very susceptible to our moods, and could well be picking up vibes from the owner . I'm not saying this in order to give the dog an excuse for over the top play, just trying to put things into perspective.
 
pressure and release with horses tends to be pressure and release-with dogs it tends to be a painful stimulus/really threatening behaviour.
The idea is that we as humans are bigger than dogs and smarter so should be able to manipulate situations anyway without needing to '*******' dogs. That tends to actually be a result of people losing their temper or being afraid of their dogs.
 
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