Puppy Licence Is It True Or An Old Wives Tale?

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Dobiegirl

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Having grown up with dogs all my life I was lead to believe that it would be highly unusual for an adult dog of either sex to attack a puppy.

After going to training classes with Darcy and a friend with a choc lab I was horrified to see her dog try to attack a little Sheltie puppy. On talking to the trainer who agreed it was unusual due to "puppy Licence" but was not foolproof.

Having a little puppy ourselves I have been very careful to introduce her to our 2 Dobes, Darcy has been a star from day one and plays with the puppy and wants to groom her. Diesel growled when the puppy tried to jump on his face which I completely understand and was in the kitchen where I think he felt confined. In the garden when the puppy is on the lead he just wants to play so I can see puppy licence in practice.

After the awful example of Alisons post it seems puppy licence is not reliable if it ever was so just wondered what your experiences are and if you believe its fact or fiction.
 
I have always believed bitches in particular will let puppies get away with murder. I would dearly love Evie to give Pickle a telling off to stop him tormenting her and swinging on her tail but she only occasionally has a mutter at him, nothing more, and in fact encourages him half the time. I have known of dogs attack pups, but in all these cases it was a generally dog aggressive dog so maybe to be expected. So yes I do think puppy licence is true but not in every case (that helped didn't it.:p).
 
I do believe if dogs are dog aggressive they are no respecter of puppies, and there do seem to more dog aggressive problems than ever before mainly because people dont socialise their dogs.

Years ago there were far more dogs roaming the streets ie they were owned but allowed before the law came in prohibiting it.When roaming the streets they did interact far more and it was uncommon to hear of dog aggression.

MM it did help if only to clarify what I already thought.:D
 
My old Border terrier attacked Betsy when she was 10 weeks old. He was dog agressive but had been ok with B prior to it.
I didn't blame him at all, he was old and grumpy and I put a full on puppy into his home.
Anyone at the AAD BBQ has seen the result of the attack!

Charlie had clearly never been told about this puppy licence!
 
How do you socialise a dog aggresive dog?
The one I do training with is rather aggressive and I'm always worried about leting her off the lead in case she hurts someone else dogs, to be fair she has a really bad over bite and tends to resort to hair pulling rather than actually being able to bite them but it still worries me.
She's really funny about dogs as I take my bosses ridgeback up to the yard and she will completely ignore him (he's barking in her face and jumping around like a clown), but one of the other ridgebacks that come to training class really seems to really push her buttons (and too be fair you can also watch this ridgeback decide she's bored and starts to wind her up), I'm sure the ridgie only does it because she gets a reaction, but now the husky/malamute cross has figured it gets a reaction and it does have a long coat to pull.
Her brother is the opposite and is friendly with everyone, both have been brought up in the same environment and the same way (the last time they ever get 2 puppies at the same time though).
She will back off if the other dog stands up to her (in fact there is normally a lot of screaming goes on even though the other dog hasn't touched her), but very few dogs will stand up to her, it's like having a 6inch pitbull on leash.
 
Does the trainer not advise anything? Are the dogs allowed to mix there? If no and no, I'd get to a better training class :)

My dog took a real dislike to a dobie at our class and we do lots of feeding each others dogs, lots of walking past, until the reaction gets less and less.

Where are you based?
 
Nope personally, Im going to say, NO licence........the dog thats put up with a puppy has good tolerance esp the more it becomes part of it's pack, IMO. Most adult dogs will attack a puppy.

Ps, not randomly....for pestering or space invading I meant to add.
 
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If a dog is dog aggressive it won't discriminate who it unleashes on.

If a dog is dog reactive it will.

I personally think that there are very few truly dog aggressive dogs and once you see one you can immediately tell that that is something completely different to handle over the average dog that will attack another dog (which i would class as reactive)
 
CaveCanem said:
Does the trainer not advise anything? Are the dogs allowed to mix there? If no and no, I'd get to a better training class :)

My dog took a real dislike to a dobie at our class and we do lots of feeding each others dogs, lots of walking past, until the reaction gets less and less.

Where are you based?
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We've been going to class for about 16 weeks now, her training is getting much better, she's a friends dog that i started taking but didn't go to any puppy classes and was 2 when I started taking her, the dogs are allowed to mix, but she won't, take off the leash and she just stays beside me (or follows me if we're doing off leash) until another dog approaches her, fine with feeding together and was much better at the last lot of classes because she had time to get to know all the dogs, new set of classes with lots of new dogs (mainly young dogs that have just finished puppy classes, so round about a year), the trainer has said to ignore her but I worry that she's going to hurt someone elses dog.
The huskyxmalamute is a bit of a pain and the trainer has been getting the owner to work on relaxing and getting to recognise when the dog is going to react.
I think it's fear aggression, but the dog very rarely leaves the yard (i already have 2 jobs and a horse so me getting time to take her off yard to walk with other dogs is few and far between) she has left the yard to go to a couple of shows with and I think a lot of it is me worrying, I know that dogs very rarely take it past noise, but we did have an instance in class where one dog did get a hold of a younger dog and burst all it's nose (the dog was know to have issues and had been wearing a muzzle up until 2 weeks before he done it and had seemed to really settle, but I think like my dog he had just grudging decided to allow the other in class to live, and then the new young dog arrived in class, don't think it cross anyone's mind that the dog would react as he had been so good and the new owners weren't aware and let the young dog go bouncing up to him).
I don't pay for the training classes and with a £1200 vets bill for the horse would probably have difficulty paying for classes.
Taking her walking on Monday with the trainer (also a dog walker) on the pack dog walk and see how that goes, do feel she gets intimidated by all the big dogs in class, she's quite small (english pointer mother, japanese chin father) only about 6inches high and then we've got 3 ridgies, husky x, mastiff, various labradors.
Sorry this turn out longer than I thought.
 
Naryafluffy said:
We've been going to class for about 16 weeks now, her training is getting much better, she's a friends dog that i started taking but didn't go to any puppy classes and was 2 when I started taking her, the dogs are allowed to mix, but she won't, take off the leash and she just stays beside me (or follows me if we're doing off leash) until another dog approaches her, fine with feeding together and was much better at the last lot of classes because she had time to get to know all the dogs, new set of classes with lots of new dogs (mainly young dogs that have just finished puppy classes, so round about a year), the trainer has said to ignore her but I worry that she's going to hurt someone elses dog.
The huskyxmalamute is a bit of a pain and the trainer has been getting the owner to work on relaxing and getting to recognise when the dog is going to react.
I think it's fear aggression, but the dog very rarely leaves the yard (i already have 2 jobs and a horse so me getting time to take her off yard to walk with other dogs is few and far between) she has left the yard to go to a couple of shows with and I think a lot of it is me worrying, I know that dogs very rarely take it past noise, but we did have an instance in class where one dog did get a hold of a younger dog and burst all it's nose (the dog was know to have issues and had been wearing a muzzle up until 2 weeks before he done it and had seemed to really settle, but I think like my dog he had just grudging decided to allow the other in class to live, and then the new young dog arrived in class, don't think it cross anyone's mind that the dog would react as he had been so good and the new owners weren't aware and let the young dog go bouncing up to him).
I don't pay for the training classes and with a £1200 vets bill for the horse would probably have difficulty paying for classes.
Taking her walking on Monday with the trainer (also a dog walker) on the pack dog walk and see how that goes, do feel she gets intimidated by all the big dogs in class, she's quite small (english pointer mother, japanese chin father) only about 6inches high and then we've got 3 ridgies, husky x, mastiff, various labradors.
Sorry this turn out longer than I thought.
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Sounds like you are doing your best especially as the dog isnt yours.This dog is going to require a lot of work and commitment and you do not have much time for training, having had a fear reactive dog I know what you are going through.
My dog was rescue and 18months old and would react instantly to any dog she didnt know. I worked on desensitiving her with a clicker and treating ,starting with looking at the dog and clicking and treating until I could get her to sniff the dog. This took a long time but is something you could try if you find you have more time.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Sounds like you are doing your best especially as the dog isnt yours.This dog is going to require a lot of work and commitment and you do not have much time for training, having had a fear reactive dog I know what you are going through.
My dog was rescue and 18months old and would react instantly to any dog she didnt know. I worked on desensitiving her with a clicker and treating ,starting with looking at the dog and clicking and treating until I could get her to sniff the dog. This took a long time but is something you could try if you find you have more time.
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At the moment 'Watch me' is being used if she looks at another dog I use it to break eye contact.
Think it's quite easy having her on the yard, doesn't need exercise as they're out running about all day and it becomes easy to not take them anywhere to socialise them.
Don't think her breeding helps either, both parents are owned by my friends brother (hence why she ended up with 2 of them) and the father is a stereotypical nasty snappy little lap dog should never have been allowed to breed in the first place (although the mother is lovely, but the brother seems to have taken the mother temperament).
The 2 dogs are opposites of each other, she's great on a leash doesn't pull, but does want to jump down the throat of every other dog she meets, he's a pain in the a$%s on the leash constantly pulling, but he wants to play with all the other dogs. (Doing a little training with him, but currently working on one at a time, did try training them both together and was getting no-where with either of them, I just don't have the experience to train 2 dogs at the same time, also can't afford the treats to train both!!!)
Have thought about the water bottle with stones in it and that may be the next option.
 
Im not keen on a bottle with stones in etc, you are dealing with a fearful dog and you dont want to add to it. The watch/look at me is a very useful exercise and I would continue with that, as for treats if she has kibble for food just use that. My dogs love primula the prawn flavour or ham not the chive one or cook some cheap sausages and cut them up really small.
 
I was told not to use the water bottle/stones in a bottle as all you do is emphasise the "I see a dog, something bad happens"

Currently i see a dog and i click treat click treat click treat click treat until i pass out!!! Last night was a nightmare if i saw one dog i must have seen 10!!! So I look like a right wally trying to keep some distance between them and us zig zagging all over the heath"!
 
Dobiegirl said:
Im not keen on a bottle with stones in etc, you are dealing with a fearful dog and you dont want to add to it. The watch/look at me is a very useful exercise and I would continue with that, as for treats if she has kibble for food just use that. My dogs love primula the prawn flavour or ham not the chive one or cook some cheap sausages and cut them up really small.
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my 2nd job is in a steak-house, so it's normally cut up steak or chicken and she doesn't get fed that night, have eventually managed to convince my friend to swap her from Barkers to Burns after hearing about Barkers on this forum.
Won't do the bottle will just try and put a bit more effort into getting her out (not enough hours in the day, need to win the lottery and give up job).
 
Tilly (who had definite issues - we had no idea how deep they went or what they were until it was too late) hated Fred on sight and attacked him when he was still a puppy. Definitely no puppy license there - she frightened him so much he poo'd and pee'd himself - more than once.

Fred (no issues, aside from being picked on by Tilly) definitely allowed Daisy puppy license.

So, yes, I think dogs with no issues probably don't respect or make allowances for puppies . . . but my experience with issue-less dogs is that they will generally cut puppies some slack (within reason).

P
 
I saw a great example of puppy licence today with Darcy, Pip was jumping up at her face and Darcy growled very quiet but Pip took heed. Darcy then went off and got Pips kong and allowed Pip to take it off her, shortly after she took it back and thats what they did for a good 20 minutes played pass the kong.:D
 
Now you see Pickle doesn't take heed until Evie loses her rag and tells him off (she doesn't make contact), he then rolls on his back and submits and 2 seconds later is swinging on her tail again. I actually have a feeling his presence has brough on a phantom pregnancy in her :(, she is digging holes etc and I think this is maybe why she is so happy to let him crawl all over her. The timing is right from when she was in season, my paranoia has kicked in of course over pyo but she bright and happy in every way, and M88 has checked her over and there are no symptoms, but I will be watching her like a hawk over the next few days.
 
Oh MM I do hope you are wrong regarding Evie, if its any help Darcy allows Pip to climb all over her and she is spayed.

Do you know anything about Pickles bloodlines, I was told by the breeder of my original Heelers they were of Norfolk bloodlines as apposed to Lancashire who were a lot sharper and tended to bite first and ask questions after.

I dont know about Pips although we obviously have her pedigree but she seems a lot feistier and vocal than my last 2.

I just hope you are wrong regarding Evie and having your daughter there must put your mind at rest a little.
 
He is more lancashire lines I think, as was our previous one. She was a tough little nut too, I remember a few weeks into owning her thinking I would have to start treating her like a GSD pup rather than as a lap dog and it did the trick. We are taking the same approach with Pickle, don't get me wrong he is learning very fast and if Evie just put him in his place a bit more I am sure he would get the message. ;)
Tbh I thought nothing of him climbing all over her and her putting up with it, it is only the last couple of days when she has being going out and digging lots of new holes that I started working out the timing since her season. She is not distressed in any way though so I am not too bothered, we have been a lovely long walk tonight with my friends dog tonight as she was full of beans so I could just be putting 2 & 2 together and coming up with 25!
 
I read your other thread and you have done a good job with her and having Pickle is good practice when she has her own puppies.:D When you had the BBQ you had no idea it would have a positive affect on Evie.:D

My last Heelers were really feisty and one of them would launch herself at our farm collie, she would be getting the worst of it and after you separated her would go straight back for more of the same if you let her. So I often wondered what the Lancashire blood lines were like if I had the softer Norfolk.

I must get my daughter to email breeder to find out the blood lines.
 
I think puppies also seem like prey a lot of the time, they are small, wriggly, submissive and high-pitched.

Re the rattle bottle, it really does depend on the dog, how strong it is mentally.
A lot of people use them during agitation with puppies in the foundation stages of protection/police training, interestingly (shaking the bottle to heighten drive/add distraction).
 
I have found several things with older dogs and pups.

I very rarely ever interfere with them sorting each other out. The Fox Hound pups intermingle with the other dogs and when they get a bit much then thy will get put in their place, quite often very firmly yet they are never really harmed.

Stopping an older dog from correcting a pup can lead to problems with the pup never learning the social order of being with other dogs. One of the worse fighters I have ever come across was my cousin's GSD bitch who was always very bold. When our two older GSDs went to put her in her place they were stopped and shut out leaving Hannah to play with my GSD dog. Everyone would tell him off when he corrected her so, the pup always got her own way in that she wrought she could just play rough with every dog she met and when they tried to correct her so she retaliated by fighting.

Dogs on a lead will nearly always be more likely to fight as they are restricted. However I will firmly and fairly correct if they do show untoward interest with other dogs.

My GSD is very good with the pups and puts up with a lot from them but today when the pups 'attacked' the elderly Lab and he was unable to cope with all four of them, she went in and knocked them very unceremoniously, away from him. Two of the four pups screamed and ran off, the other two were fast to move away! A couple of minutes later and she was playing with all four pups well away from the old man.
 
My old dog was a complete coward, wouldn't say boo to a goose, unless he saw a puppy.
He never bit, but he used to try and chase them, growling. (obviously, once we realised he had this trait, we kept him away from young dogs )
I think that puppies were just an easy target for him, a typical bully / coward really.

My brother has a dog, ( got at 8wks old, now 6 months ) and my mum baby sits him a couple of days a week. I know she has been shocked how many dogs have been agressive to him, (growling) and one dog was fighting him, (had him on the floor/ biting him ).
So basically, I don't think you can rely on your dog being a puppy, and I think in some cases, that might make any agression worse.
Kx
 
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