Putting fatalities into prospective

[AmyMay]

In the 1970's, horse were nothing like as "race fit" as they are nowadays, they were not the same class, ie some were good jumpers, not fast racehorses, so they could plod along for four miles and win. Nowadays the horses are trained scientifically, they are much faster, and it is pretty much a given that they can gallop at a pace for four miles, and jump the fences.

Bloomin nora's what a load of tosh

 

[Dobiegirl]

We know you hate racing: the GN in 1977 was a hard race, the fences were huge, there were few safety considerations and yet, the fatalities were less. In the 1970's, horse were nothing like as "race fit" as they are nowadays, they were not the same class, ie some were good jumpers, not fast racehorses, so they could plod along for four miles and win. Nowadays the horses are trained scientifically, they are much faster, and it is pretty much a given that they can gallop at a pace for four miles, and jump the fences.
No horse deserves to die, we don't want any horse to die, that is why they are trained for the day, looked after properly, and have all the best of attention, good riders, good feed, good vets, good trainers, good owners.

MissLToe 1970 horses not as fit as nowadays is not true racing fit is racing fit, the only difference between racing in the 1970s and now is training facilities gallops etc. In the 1970s it was quite rare for a horse to win first time out because they were only half fit and needed a race or 2 to get them cherry ripe. No one would ever had entered the GN unless they were fully fit and as for they were not as fast as they are these days only has to look at Mr Frisks record time which was set up many moons ago.

 

[cptrayes]

Wishful, you make a good and valid point. There is also the same issue that for every top dressage and sj horse out on the seen, many have broken down trying to get there. No different from racing but they are rarely held to the same standards of welfare!

What an incredibly arrogant claim

Showjumpers and dressage horses "rarely held to the same standards of welfare" as racehorses.

What planet do you live on ?

 

[Maesfen]

ps I can find only one recent horse death in British Eventing on record and that was Spring Along who had a heart attack before the fence. He could have died at any time, as a six year old once did under me on a hack.

Sharon Hunt's horse at Weston Park last weekend too.
TBH it's not something either BE, BS or BD advertise is it, they're not as transparent as the racing industry.

 

[cptrayes]

Maesfen the racing industry isn't transparent. It produces records by runs not by horses. There is no record of horses put down because of, but not during, a race that I can find. And the stats that they publish about where horses have gone after leaving training are ridiculous. It may well be what owners/trainers are declaring, but it can't be the truth. I did the sums on "horses sent to stud duties" and if they were true then either every TB stud is routinely killing many mares a year, or they are by now knee deep in brood mares.

So we have identified one horse death on a BE course caused by the cross country itself out of hundreds of days of XC in recent years? It's a far cry from four in two years of one single race, isn't it ?

 

[cefyl]

I think you need to research records throughly before you post a statement of only horse death in BE in recent years.

 

[Racergirl]

1996 Good 27 runners Rust Never Sleeps PU fatally injured approaching 13th.
1997 Good 37 runners Smiths Band fell at 20th.
1998 Soft 37 runners Griffins Bar fell at the 5th continued riderless before being fatally injured.
Pashto fell at the 1st.
Do Rightly. Heart attack.
1999 Good 32 runners Eudipe fell at Bechers 2nd time around.
2000 Good 40 runners All survived.
2001 Heavy 40 runners All survived
2002 Good 40 runners The Last Fling. Am I right in thinking he was killed running loose?
Manx Magic.
2003 Good 40 runners Goguenard UR 19th dead
2004 Good 39 runners All survived but bless his socks, for Bounce Back it reads 'In touch until fell 6th (Becher's), fell twice more when riderless'. Did that horse have no self preservation instinct at all? You would've though two falls would be enough to put him off jumping!

2005 Gd/Sft 40 runners All survived.
2006 Gd/Sft 40 runners Tyneandthyneagain fell at the 1st fatally injured running loose.
2007 Good 40 runners Graphic Approach fatally injured while loose.
2008 Good 40 runners Mckelvey died loose.
2009 Gd/Sft 40 runners Hear The Echo collapsed and died.
2010 Good 40 runners All survived
2011 Good 40 runners Ornais died at the 4th. Dooneys Gate at the 6th.
2012 Good 40 runners Synchronised & According To Pete


thats as far back as can be arsed to go - starting with when the powers that be began really pandering to the animal aid types and buggering about with the fences. Well done animal "lovers" - yet again you have killed far more animals than you have saved....

 

[cptrayes]

I think you need to research records throughly before you post a statement of only horse death in BE in recent years.

"We have identified" were the words used. If you know of more, educate me. I have googled and can find no more.

And if we extrapolate the last few years of Grand National deaths, even on the best possible interpretation, every single day of BE cross country would result in at least 10 horse deaths.

BE would be stopped. Why is racing allowed to continue?

 

[Little Squirrel]

So we have identified one horse death on a BE course caused by the cross country itself out of hundreds of days of XC in recent years? It's a far cry from four in two years of one single race, isn't it ?

There was a horse killed at Badminton in 2010 was there not? I have been to two 4* events and at both there was a horse lost on the x-country.

Also two horses died at Badminton x-country in 2007.

This site is also quite interesting:http://www.eventing.zzn.com/

 

[cptrayes]

There was a horse killed at Badminton in 2010 was there not? I have been to two 4* events and at both there was a horse lost on the x-country.

Also two horses died at Badminton x-country in 2007.

This site is also quite interesting:http://www.eventing.zzn.com/

Shame on BE for not making these figures easier to find.

 

[Little Squirrel]

I know it's worldwide but it's still interesting.

Have just found another site which stated that in 2009 there were 128 road accidents involving horses being ridden. It doesn't state the number of horses which died resulting from the traffic accidents but if you take numbers into every context of equestrianism then the risk from doing everything to hacking to running a horse in the National is high no matter what.

 

[cptrayes]

Have just found another site which stated that in 2009 there were 128 road accidents involving horses being ridden. It doesn't state the number of horses which died resulting from the traffic accidents but if you take numbers into every context of equestrianism then the risk from doing everything to hacking to running a horse in the National is high no matter what.

I don't buy that argument, sorry. Whilst it is probably predictable that a number of horses will die in road accidents every year, it is a tiny proportion of the number of horses that will go out on the road and it is normally a result of a third party's actions, the horse rider does not expect or cause the risk. It is, therefore, unreasonable to restrict the right of every horse owner to go out on the road.

It is equally predictable that out of, say 100 runners in the Grand National, at least one will die on the course. And that death will have been directly caused solely by running in the National, not the unexpected and illegal behaviour of a third party. It would not be anywhere near as unreasonable to stop the Grand National.

The GN deaths by year given earlier were very interesting. It is beginning to look as if trying to make the race horse-safer has resulted in the opposite. I wonder what will happen now.

 

[tristar]

surely i'm not the only one to remember a badminton, within the last 20 years? it was very wet that year, and THREE horses died, why they did'nt stop after two fatalities i don't understand.

 

[Maesfen]

The GN deaths by year given earlier were very interesting. It is beginning to look as if trying to make the race horse-safer has resulted in the opposite. I wonder what will happen now.

Well at least we agree on something.

 

[amage]

I also think your total for grand national deaths since 2000 is incorrect. I believe it is 11 but will happily stand corrected. Can you show me where you got your statistic please?

You are correct...the figure 23 is over the grand national fences as far as I am aware not in the National so the statistic encompasses the Foxhunters, Topham, Becher & I can't remember what the others are

 

[cefyl]

"We have identified" were the words used. If you know of more, educate me. I have googled and can find no more.
QUOTE]

I assumed that someone who has the ability to post on HHO would also read the magazine, online and / or in print, even occassionaly. And further more should not need "educating" though of course that has proved blatantly wrong. You don't need to google, just read HH or BE or relevant eventing blogs, news, etc.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Horses die in the field, out hacking, showing, having fun on the beach.......... the list goes on.

Animals and people do die in accidents freak or not. Yes its sad but there shouldnt NEED to be sonething blamed for it or a greater good etc.

Its a shame that this is the way sports are thought of. Why not look at the PEOPLE that die competiting in NON equine sports every year. Do they deserve to die more or less??

Sad state of affairs IMO

 

[Rollin]

Arriving a bit late to this thread but I wish as much emotion and charity support were put into making roads safer, for ridden horses, and that motorists were given higher penalties when they kill our horses.

It is my understanding that accurate figures are not available for horse deaths because the police lump them in with other animals killed on the road.

I have never been in the enviable situation of riding all off road, in Berkshire, Central Scotland and now in France I cannot avoid some road riding. It is an unpleasant experience.

 

[cptrayes]

"We have identified" were the words used. If you know of more, educate me. I have googled and can find no more.
QUOTE]

I assumed that someone who has the ability to post on HHO would also read the magazine, online and / or in print, even occassionaly. And further more should not need "educating" though of course that has proved blatantly wrong. You don't need to google, just read HH or BE or relevant eventing blogs, news, etc.

Why on earth would you assume that anyone should read Horse and Hound and the BE magazine every week/month for years and keep a note of all the horse deaths or be able to remember them?

 

[cefyl]

Why on earth would you assume that anyone should read Horse and Hound and the BE magazine every week/month for years and keep a note of all the horse deaths or be able to remember them?

Well if you do not read anything relevant to a topic you are making wild claims of numbers and statistics on it may be pertinent in future to get YOUR facts correct before posting.

 

[cptrayes]

Well if you do not read anything relevant to a topic you are making wild claims of numbers and statistics on it may be pertinent in future to get YOUR facts correct before posting.

I made no claims. I asked for information.

So now no-one can post on HHO unless they already know the answer? That'll cut things down a bit

 

[cefyl]

I made no claims. I asked for information.

So now no-one can post on HHO unless they already know the answer? That'll cut things down a bit

Err you did make claims :-
"I can find only one recent horse death in British Eventing on record and that was Spring Along who had a heart attack before the fence"
"So we have identified one horse death on a BE course caused by the cross country itself out of hundreds of days of XC in recent years"

 

[cptrayes]

Err you did make claims :-
"I can find only one recent horse death in British Eventing on record and that was Spring Along who had a heart attack before the fence"
"So we have identified one horse death on a BE course caused by the cross country itself out of hundreds of days of XC in recent years"

Cefyl I'm sorry but what is the point of this discussion? Those aren't claims, they are statements. "I can find only one" - correct when it was written. "So we have identified one" - correct when it was written.

If you want to stop people making statements like that, you'll shut the whole board down.

How about addressing the actual point of the thread - that if Badminton, the BE equivalent of the Grand National routinely killed one or more horses in 40 starters year after year, it would be stopped?

 

[Racergirl]

Just been pointed in the direction of this article as well, which goes some way to trying to work out what goes on...


http://cuhrs.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04...howComment=1334761956431#c7545359378884812293

 

[pipsqueek]

Like everyone else on here is saddend and gutted when a horse dies in the Grand National, it is a high profile race and when fatalaties occcur the whole world knows, horses unfortunately break legs in jump/flat meetings over the year. Horses also suffer ligament/tendon damage from competing in other horse sports, from general hacking out and from injuries sustained in the field, and are put down.... not on live t.v. I don't think it's fair to point the finger of blame at trainers it being all about money, guess there is good and bad in every sport but in general they love their horses. I only know one trainer that regularly runs horses at Aintree but they have probably more retired oldies at home than runners! The horses involved are looked after well, and racing is what they were bred for and love doing

 

[Ladydragon]

We know you hate racing: the GN in 1977 was a hard race, the fences were huge, there were few safety considerations and yet, the fatalities were less. In the 1970's, horse were nothing like as "race fit" as they are nowadays, they were not the same class, ie some were good jumpers, not fast racehorses, so they could plod along for four miles and win. Nowadays the horses are trained scientifically, they are much faster, and it is pretty much a given that they can gallop at a pace for four miles, and jump the fences.
No horse deserves to die, we don't want any horse to die, that is why they are trained for the day, looked after properly, and have all the best of attention, good riders, good feed, good vets, good trainers, good owners.

Just picking up on this one... I might not watch the GN but dodging the noise about Red Rum's hat trick and the first female jockey was nigh on impossible... But two horses died that year so I'm a tad confused about there being less fatalities? A field of 42 runners and 9 finishers... This year... 15 (ish) finishers out of 40 (ish) starters? Not worlds apart...

BBC News - GN 1977

According to good old Wiki - only '67 saw a fatality during that decade... One or more horses in '73, 75, '77, '78 and '79 (8 horses)... During the 80's only three years saw fatalities (4 horses)... Seven years out of the 90s (10 horses), and 6 years out of 2000 - 2009 (7 horses)... Since 2010, 4 horses... Maybe there was some 'protective factor' at play during the 60s and the 80s because outside of those decades, not much seems to have changed no matter what lip service to safety has been paid...

I'm a bit of an F1 gal and there were a big number of deaths in the 70s... But after Ratzenberger and Senna died in 1994, changes were made and no one has died (to my knowledge) since... For want of sounding a tad cynical, if jockeys were dying at the rate the horses are, I think we'd have seen backsides being shifted a lot quicker to implement effective changes...

 

[Dab]

What an incredibly arrogant claim

Showjumpers and dressage horses "rarely held to the same standards of welfare" as racehorses.

What planet do you live on ?

That comment could have been construed as brazen, but it wasn't meant to be. What might have been a better way of expressing the sentiment, was 'that the finger is rarely pointed at other equine sport with a much vigour and righteous condemnation than it is at racing, but that other sports such as SJ and dressgae also have welfare concerns'. Would that be less incredibly aggrogant?

I don't buy that argument, sorry. Whilst it is probably predictable that a number of horses will die in road accidents every year, it is a tiny proportion of the number of horses that will go out on the road and it is normally a result of a third party's actions, the horse rider does not expect or cause the risk. It is, therefore, unreasonable to restrict the right of every horse owner to go out on the road.
.

But by the same token the road riding owner is putting their charge at risk, what is the difference if the horse is bought down by a car or another horse, they are both 3rd party actions?

How about addressing the actual point of the thread - that if Badminton, the BE equivalent of the Grand National routinely killed one or more horses in 40 starters year after year, it would be stopped?

Badminton can never be made as a straighforward equivalent to the National due to the nature of the event, i.e. a rider and horse at Badminton does not have to contend with 39 other riders and horses all trying to get over the jump at the same time!

 

[Dab]

Just been pointed in the direction of this article as well, which goes some way to trying to work out what goes on...


http://cuhrs.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04...howComment=1334761956431#c7545359378884812293

Thanks for sharing, lets hope this information gets seriously considered.

 

[MagicMelon]

There is also the same issue that for every top dressage and sj horse out on the seen, many have broken down trying to get there. No different from racing but they are rarely held to the same standards of welfare!

What?! How are dressage and show jumpers not looked after as well as racers?! They are hopefully BETTER looked after because IMO I strongly object to how racehorses are kept. Yes, they have masses of money spent on their training / feed etc. but at the end of the day their basic needs aren't met! They're backed horrifically early before their physically or mentally ready and they're stabled permanently whilst fed high energy feed. My own horses welfare is of far higher quality than them as he is allowed to be out on grass grazing naturally and playing with other horses (as they should do, especially when young). Its such a basic need that so few racehorses get. I hate it when people think a horse who is wrapped in cotton wool is better looked after than one who is allowed to experience its basic needs.

 

[Dab]

What?! How are dressage and show jumpers not looked after as well as racers?! They are hopefully BETTER looked after because IMO I strongly object to how racehorses are kept. Yes, they have masses of money spent on their training / feed etc. but at the end of the day their basic needs aren't met! They're backed horrifically early before their physically or mentally ready and they're stabled permanently whilst fed high energy feed. My own horses welfare is of far higher quality than them as he is allowed to be out on grass grazing naturally and playing with other horses (as they should do, especially when young). Its such a basic need that so few racehorses get. I hate it when people think a horse who is wrapped in cotton wool is better looked after than one who is allowed to experience its basic needs.

*please refer to comment 3 posts up*

Also the comment does not say that dressage or SJ'ers are not looked after as well as race horses!

But there are race horses that are turned out, some NH horses get the summer off in a field (can't comment on flat horses).

There are a number of top SJ and dressage horses that are not provided with turn-out - they are deemed to valuable to be turned out in a field where they risk injury. There are dressage, SJ and event horses that are started at 3.