Query for the barefoot gurus

[Caol Ila]

This is sort of hypothetical. As in, not really my horse, but I am pure curious and always up for learning more.

Lets say you have a horse who you kind of want to transition to barefoot, but then a physio and a farrier tell you that the horse doesn't move straight and it lands on the outside edge of its foot. When you look at the hoof growth, you can see what looks like flare on the inside. Farrier and physio say it's wearing *too much* on the outside because of how the horse moves, and the horse needs the support of shoes. So fair enough, you put the shoes back on.

Is there a way to deal with that issue without resorting to shoes?

Hermosa was wearing her feet in that manner last year. Now she isn't, and the hooves are quite even regardless of where we are in the trimming cycle. It somehow fixed itself, but I have no clue how (other than bringing her from not backed into full work and feeding her oily herbs, lol).

 

[tyner]

other than bringing her from not backed into full work

This suggests a clue. I think.

Especially when backing her I imagine you've been helping her move consistently, maintain straightness and balance.

She's building coordination and strength in her body.

The additional movement creates more blood flow in the hooves, leading to better growth. With more blood flow and stronger growth/elasticity the hoof capsule is able to compensate for the flare.

Or it was the oily herbs

How great that you persisted!

 

[SEL]

I had to get over myself a bit with barefoot dreams with the microcob. Somewhere on here are her X rays of her hind feet which explained why she was landing so heavily on the outside - so much so you could barely see her frog any more.

Boots just didn't cope and she hammers through a pair of metal shoes every 5-6 weeks but it keeps her going. If she was younger I think I could do more to straighten her and build up the correct muscles, but we have bony damage too. Her quad muscles are better these days but she was very hollow in that area when I got her.

I suspect with Hermosa you've encouraged her to work properly so she's straightened up. My big Appy can get a funny flare on her right fore when she's tight through her pectorals. Regular stretching exercises stops it happening.

But sometimes genetics are at play. My farrier trims the microcob's last foal who is now 4 and reckons she's inherited wonky feet so time will tell how that plays out.

 

[smolmaus]

As a hypothetical, my next question to the physio and the farrier is what could we do with remedial farriery to help her move straighter I guess. Or second opinions. Lateral wedge shoes, additional physio exercise to correct an imbalance? Horse might just be built wonky and nothing to be done but a friends horse has come from "would be crippled without shoes" with flares in all directions on all feet to "maybe we could think about barefoot eventually" with some great, slow farriery work. She looks like a different horse now she has the feet to support the correct muscle development and the muscle development means she's straighter everywhere.

Tha same farrier trimmed Sadie maybe 3 times and the flares she had have never come back the same and she has never looked as pigeon-toed again, even though we had to start using someone else since through very annoying circumstances I've corrected a good few other things as well like and she is now backed and working as well but I do put some of it down to the original farrier just really knowing his sh*t.

 

[Caol Ila]

So in other words, (let's go back to our hypothetical horse), landing heavily on the outside edge may be fixable with skilful trimming and correct work. But it also may not be depending on the conformation of the horse? In which case you need shoes to compensate?

My next question is, are the shoes (for the sake of argument, normal shoes....not wedges or anything) actually giving support in a useful way that leaving it barefoot does not, or are they covering up the uneven wear pattern so you don't get the wonky looking feet and excessive wear on the outside edge, but the horse is still as not straight as it was barefoot.

Let's pretend that I've pulled off the shoes off my hypothetical horse, who's been shod her whole life, and noticed the flare on the inside of the foot and the wall wearing down on the outside. My farrier and physio now tell me barefoot ain't gonna work, because she's putting more weight on that outside edge, so the best thing to do is put the shoes back on, which will help support her.

***hypothetical because neither of my horses have ever been shod.... I'm just curious and interested in 'alternative' hoofcare paradigms because I have seen this scenario play out a few times with various friends who've tried to go barefoot, but then gone back to shod when told that their horse was not a good barefoot prospect due to aforesaid uneven movement pattern***

****My farrier does an excellent barefoot trim. Can't fault him. But he has told me that if the hoof is wearing down faster than it can grow, the horse will need protection. Boots or shoes. My understanding, from reading Nic Barker's book, is that eventually the horse will grow foot to cope with terrain and workload so long as it's on a hoof-friendly diet and all the rest. But this can take a while.

 

[tyner]

The critical thing here I think is "movement pattern".

And then it gets to the question of why is that pattern there? How bad is it and what are these hypothetical people asking these horses to do?

I think you are right considering how a shoe would be a "cover up" for an uneven wear pattern.

Ultimately I think it depends if the unevenness in gait/resulting hoof flare is down to 1) lack of fitness/underdeveloped muscle or if it is from 2) a confirmation reason/immovable tension due to structural unevenness higher in the leg and the body.

You can work on 1) but
In the case of 2) where the wear is very uneven, and showing in the movement, the question really is not about shoes, it's more of, is it actually fair to ask a horse to be doing that kind of activity?

It does not matter how well a hoof appears balanced on the ground, if you have structural unevenness/conformation things going on above the hoof capsule (skeletal/tendons) a shoe doesn't make the unevenness go away.

If anything, by masking things at ground level you may have a knock on effect higher up the leg if that shoe keeps the hoof in an artificially "balanced" position (depending on how bad the fault is and how much wear and tear there is).

I'm a big believer in barefoot. I wish that every horse given enough time, energy, work and exercise, proper diet, would be able to go barefoot. As amazing as the hoof is, there some few cases where I don't think it's fair to ask it to compensate against generations of dumb human involvement in equid genetic engineering. Considering some of the work people would like their horses to do, it may be more than some hooves can hold up. Here, a shoe or boot may be kinder.

Unfortunately in the UK there is a considerable lack of facilities available to truly put that to test.

 

[SEL]

The microcob got away with her wonky legs as a broodmare and kid's riding pony (they didn't do much).

Light hacking but with a few miles on tarmac started to be an issue. Her front feet have an unusual wear pattern too - but not to the extent where they don't cope. Her hinds just don't grow fast enough to deal with her slamming down laterally. Metal takes that impact now and her shoes are sharp blades at the end of a cycle she hammers them so much. That's hacking for 1-2 hours a few times a week so light work really.

Until my farrier trimmed her daughter he suspected her wonky legs were as a result of foaling but now we think genetics. I don't own her daughter but it would be interesting to see if you could overcome the genetics with good, slow, correct muscle development.

So I think it has to be horse dependent. A younger horse growing flare I'd want to know why - so I'd be asking the physio where it was tight and watching it move to see if there was a development issue that needed to be addressed. With an older horse for me it would depend on what else we know is going on in its body.

I'd be a bit disappointed in a physio just blindly saying put shoes on though.

 

[Widgeon]

My next question is, are the shoes (for the sake of argument, normal shoes....not wedges or anything) actually giving support in a useful way that leaving it barefoot does not, or are they covering up the uneven wear pattern so you don't get the wonky looking feet and excessive wear on the outside edge

I am absolutely not a barefoot guru, or anything of the sort, but when we took hind shoes off my cob (he has arthritis in one hock) we've actually found that he wears his hooves less than he wore down the shoes.

I know he has an uneven movement pattern (he has a screwing motion in canter on the arthritic leg - you can't see it but I know it because he screws the pad out of his boot on one side only) but since taking the shoes off the wear on his hinds is equal, and also less than the wear on his shoes. Which is interesting.

 

[ycbm]

If you're taking the shoes off to transition then you'd need to wait for at least one complete hoof capsule to grow in before you could tell whether the horse was in fact in the process of growing the hoof capsule it needed to balance its foot and the foot to the leg above it.

If the horse has been barefoot for a while and nobody has tried to insist on trimming it for symmetry, then you'd need to take a very, very hard look at how it was moving to see if you can see why the movement is so dysfunctional the hoof can't accommodate it.

.

 

[Highmileagecob]

I actually thought you might have the Highland in mind. A lot of it is to do with conformation and muscle structure. A wide chested breed is more likely to walk on the outside of the hoof because of the way the shoulder is set. Sometimes, building a good topline will assist in supporting the shoulder, sometimes not. Farriers are taught to address an issue by remedial shoeing. That is what a farrier does - fit shoes. Old Dobbin is a barrel chested piebald, with more Dales than anything in his make up. He also used to wear the outside of the hoof and flare badly on the inner walls on both fore feet. The farrier just used to shrug and say 'that's how he is,' but the barefoot trimmer suggested taking him to a more balanced foot over time to see how he went. He was booted to help with clearing a stubborn thrush problem, started weighting his heels properly, and yes! started to build topline. The flaring diminished over time and he began moving much straighter. This has continued and he remains sound into his retirement. Some horses really need the support of shoes or boots, but for me it would be after everything else has been considered.

 

[sbloom]

Hoof balance is so closely tied up with posture and movement patterns, and not always as much to do with conformation as we think. A medial-lateral imbalance may well be from the horse being stuck more in adduction or abduction for example. Bodywork, groundwork, ridden work, as appropriate. The feet can hold the body back, the body can hold the feet back.

 

[cauda equina]

Re the original question about physio and farrier saying the horse needs shoes because of its movement

I wonder if anyone has studied a decent sample of horses with varying conformation, movement and hoof shape before and after transitioning to BF to establish which horses do better or worse without shoes?
I suspect not, and guess that any opinions are based solely on personal experiences of small numbers of horses, or even just uninformed prejudice

When shod my pigeon-toed old cob had massive flares and always lost a portion of hoof wall on the medial side of each foot; going barefoot has fixed all that

 

[sbloom]

Re the original question about physio and farrier saying the horse needs shoes because of its movement

I wonder if anyone has studied a decent sample of horses with varying conformation, movement and hoof shape before and after transitioning to BF to establish which horses do better or worse without shoes?
I suspect not, and guess that any opinions are based solely on personal experiences of small numbers of horses, or even just uninformed prejudice

When shod my pigeon-toed old cob had massive flares and always lost a portion of hoof wall on the medial side of each foot; going barefoot has fixed all that

I think we have a fundamental issue with what is conformation and what is posture/movement.

 

[paddy555]

there is also what happened to the horse as a baby. I took on a 3 yo rescue pony. Very poor condition in general and his feet went in all directions as did his legs. Wasn't genetics it was the fact that he had never been trimmed until he came to me. Everything had been allowed to grow so "wonky" and he was far too old to correct anything.

I was able to make a few corrections but that was it. I trim him regularly to keep him as straight as possible but, whilst he grows good quality hoof and has the potential to be excellent barefoot, he is and always will be "wonky" due to lack of earlier hoof care. He is not broken so nothing has been made better or worse by riding it is just the lack of earlier care. (he lived as a feral for 3 years)

 

[IrishMilo]

I haven't read everyone's replies BUT it's very common that horses land lateral to medial (outside to inside). Ergo there will always be some flare to the inside as it just won't wear as quickly.

 

[sbloom]

I haven't read everyone's replies BUT it's very common that horses land lateral to medial (outside to inside). Ergo there will always be some flare to the inside as it just won't wear as quickly.

So many horses move base narrow (not conformation almost by definition as there is no collarbone).

 

[ycbm]

I haven't read everyone's replies BUT it's very common that horses land lateral to medial (outside to inside). Ergo there will always be some flare to the inside as it just won't wear as quickly.

It's not right though, especially in front. And many horses that do it in shoes will begin to land on both heels simultaneously if the shoes are removed.

 

[ycbm]

I think we have a fundamental issue with what is conformation and what is posture/movement.

A friend of mine bought a 5 year old horse with the most extravagant dish I've ever seen. The horse kept on and on removing front shoes. It never went more than 3 weeks without taking off a shoe. In desperation she took it barefoot. You've guessed it, a year later the horse did not dish.

 

[sbloom]

Change the feet <> change the movement <> change the body!

 

[suestowford]

There is a pony here who wore shoes for 19 years. He's not been shod now for 18 months and his feet have gone from dodgy shaped to perfect (farrier's assessment). We did a lot of in-hand walking with him, with boots on at first, but later without, and they now wear evenly. He's got arthritis in his legs, so having a fine set of feet will be helping him to move better, and keep his joints from getting too stiff. Taking his shoes off was the best thing for him.

I do have another who has recently had some issues with flare, in one hoof only. That was down to arthritis in his hock. We increased his Bute, and no more flare. It's something I now know to look out for as a sign that all is not well with his hock. If he was wearing shoes I might not have noticed a problem.

 

[Tarragon]

I wish I had taken more photos of my pony's feet when we started! He would have been an excellent case study. When I got him he was 6 years old and unbacked, had never been shod, but also had absolutely minimal hoof care as had been conservation grazing on open moorland for most of his life.
He has legs "like tree trunks" (as someone said) and was pigeon toed.
His feet were not in a good way when he arrived, despite having had a "trim" between purchasing and delivering. They were split in places and were overly long, misshapen and flared, and had thrush with very deep gaps in the central sulcus. On the plus side, he had very good hoof horn and sole. When you tried to pick out his hind hooves, he would barely lift them off the ground, sometimes you would pick out his feet with his toe resting on the ground! It was as though he hadn't realised his legs could bend that much.
We are now two years down the line under the watchful eye a very patient barefoot trimmer, and he was backed this summer and has been ridden regularly for the last couple of months with road and hill work. Boots on occasionally as and when needed as in the early days of ridden I didn't want any potential discomfort from his feet to inhibit his forward way of going and for him to associate discomfort with riding.
Splits all gone now. Quality of hoof is spot on. He can pick up his hind feet like a normal pony.
Still slightly pigeon toed but so much better than before! Really pleased about that one. He naturally develops flares to compensate in his fronts but seeing slight improvements every the time.
Still improving overall shape and length as we wanted to achieve this organically.
Slightly odd wear in one hind as it looks like the frog is squished to one side, and it is on my to do list.
I got a chiropractor to check him before he was backed, and again after he had been backed and getting some miles in to make sure that he was coping with the work load, and he got a thumbs up.
Conclusion.
"Natural" living isn't always a good thing. I think that a slight imbalance, left unchecked, became more and more exacerbated and if he had had more attention in the first few years, he probably wouldn't be pigeon toed now.
Any issues with the health of the hoof can impact the way of going and cause knock on effects elsewhere
Balanced riding with plenty of road work and hill work feed back into the health of the hoof

 

[Tarragon]

I have realised that I haven't answered any questions - sorry! I got so excited about the topic
I think it is an excellent discussion

 

[Caol Ila]

This is a good discussion. Thanks for indulging me.

I can totally understand why many owners, if told by a physio and farrier to put the shoes back on, will do so. Following the advice of the professionals is what we advice most people to do!

But it seems with hoof care, there is a lot even the professionals don't know. Or almost myths which are not actually well supported by science?

I pulled Gypsum's hind shoes when she was about 24 and was told by my then-farrier that I should put them back on because she had arthritis and needed the "support." I use quotes becuse those were his words. However, I found that she moved better without (so long as she had an appropriate trim, which she did not always get until I changed farriers). I did not follow advice of aforesaid farrier.

The most recent case I am thinking of was a horse who has been out of work due to non-hoof related injury for about six months. Owner had shoes pulled and had thoughts of keeping it barefoot. Now horse is coming back to ridden work. It was footy over rocks and shows the hoof growth patterns I talked about in the OP, hence advice from physio and farrier to put the shoes back on.

I've used this physio myself, and it makes me wonder if we are on the same page with the whole barefoot/biomechanics thing. What are shoes “supporting?”

 

[tyner]

Given the amount of vets I've encountered that think barefoot is barbaric or "Chinese medicine" as I've been told, I'd imagine the physio comes from the same sort of thinking. How sad it would be if that horse is uneven because of postural reasons or tightness exactly what the physio is supposed to work out. Sometimes I think they prefer a fast "fix" rather than really trying to work it out. Its dilusional and doesn't serve the horse or owner who is trying to do his/her best. I've had the case when a vet said to shoe the horse. I responded with 4 master farriers from 2 different countries with detailed explanations, diagrams and xray markups why it would be better to keep the horse barefoot (and these are farriers mind you, not barefoot trimmers). I asked the vet to explain to me why they disagreed with them. Unsurprisingly they were not able to do so, but still countered that if I was to keep the horse barefoot it would be "against vets advice". It is incredibly disheartening when you look to the professionals and this is what you get.

 

[expanding_horizon]

This is sort of hypothetical. As in, not really my horse, but I am pure curious and always up for learning more.

Lets say you have a horse who you kind of want to transition to barefoot, but then a physio and a farrier tell you that the horse doesn't move straight and it lands on the outside edge of its foot. When you look at the hoof growth, you can see what looks like flare on the inside. Farrier and physio say it's wearing *too much* on the outside because of how the horse moves, and the horse needs the support of shoes. So fair enough, you put the shoes back on.

Is there a way to deal with that issue without resorting to shoes?

Hermosa was wearing her feet in that manner last year. Now she isn't, and the hooves are quite even regardless of where we are in the trimming cycle. It somehow fixed itself, but I have no clue how (other than bringing her from not backed into full work and feeding her oily herbs, lol).

I think it depends. I took on loan a competing 11 year old horse, that wore hind shoes intermittently. I improved the diet, and took back shoes off (with a view to taking front shoes off if went well). Horse wore both hind feet quite unevenly, despite good bodywork, changing saddle and groundwork. I cant remember the details but the farrier’s advice was to put shoes back on before wore one side so short made him sore. (was a while ago I cant remember if was wearing insides or outsides).


6 or 7 years later I have more tools available, better boots, and hoof armor etc. My horse is barefoot, grows more on outside of 3 feet, and inside of one, but it is within manageable limits, it is over growth (rather than over wear which is much harder to manage).


But if I had a horse that was consistently wearing one side of hooves too low, to the point of being sore, despite me using boots for work, hoof armor on the wearing down side, and doing weekly maintenance trims to rebalance, having good diet and hoof care conditions, I would consider barefoot to not be working for that horse.


I think some horses can grow the hoof balance they need to be sound, which may or may not be symmetrical or may be balancing an asymmetry or issue higher up. But not all can or do, and for some the slower wear pattern of shoes enables them to stay better balanced in relation to unfixable issues higher up.

 

[expanding_horizon]

Given the amount of vets I've encountered that think barefoot is barbaric or "Chinese medicine" as I've been told, I'd imagine the physio comes from the same sort of thinking. How sad it would be if that horse is uneven because of postural reasons or tightness exactly what the physio is supposed to work out. Sometimes I think they prefer a fast "fix" rather than really trying to work it out. Its dilusional and doesn't serve the horse or owner who is trying to do his/her best. I've had the case when a vet said to shoe the horse. I responded with 4 master farriers from 2 different countries with detailed explanations, diagrams and xray markups why it would be better to keep the horse barefoot (and these are farriers mind you, not barefoot trimmers). I asked the vet to explain to me why they disagreed with them. Unsurprisingly they were not able to do so, but still countered that if I was to keep the horse barefoot it would be "against vets advice". It is incredibly disheartening when you look to the professionals and this is what you get.

I think vets typically experience a lot of footsore barefoot horses which colours their perspective. I have seen a lot of barefoot horses that arent sound to trot up on a typical driveway. That said I do think vets are better than they used to be, I've not had much said about my horse being barefoot for a while now, and my main vet is pro barefoot.

 

[expanding_horizon]

This is a good discussion. Thanks for indulging me.

I can totally understand why many owners, if told by a physio and farrier to put the shoes back on, will do so. Following the advice of the professionals is what we advice most people to do!

But it seems with hoof care, there is a lot even the professionals don't know. Or almost myths which are not actually well supported by science?

I pulled Gypsum's hind shoes when she was about 24 and was told by my then-farrier that I should put them back on because she had arthritis and needed the "support." I use quotes becuse those were his words. However, I found that she moved better without (so long as she had an appropriate trim, which she did not always get until I changed farriers). I did not follow advice of aforesaid farrier.

The most recent case I am thinking of was a horse who has been out of work due to non-hoof related injury for about six months. Owner had shoes pulled and had thoughts of keeping it barefoot. Now horse is coming back to ridden work. It was footy over rocks and shows the hoof growth patterns I talked about in the OP, hence advice from physio and farrier to put the shoes back on.

I've used this physio myself, and it makes me wonder if we are on the same page with the whole barefoot/biomechanics thing. What are shoes “supporting?”

I dont think shoes do provide support for most arthritic horses.

I do think they can lessen asymmetrical wear.

I do think shoes with frog support and heel lifts can correct foot balance angles if needed, and result in better biomechanics (providing the person applying has enough skill to use to generate positive changes, and slowly transition out of needing to use).

I also think shoes provide better grip on wet grass or very wet mud.

Shoes can also make a footsore horse immediately appear sound (I appreciate the feet are still compromised underneath).

I do think a lot of vets and physios have seen footsore barefoot horses that dont seem to improve, this is pretty common IME, and it might be the diet / the environment live in versus work load / the trim etc etc. But it is still horses that are long term footsore.

I also think boots are SO good now, and so many options that it isnt hard to have a barefoot horse, and to use boots if they do need a bit of protection at times. Plus hoof armor is pretty good as stopping feet getting soft when wet and lessening wear.

The bodyworkers I used as all very pro barefoot.

 

[SEL]

I think vets typically experience a lot of footsore barefoot horses which colours their perspective. I have seen a lot of barefoot horses that arent sound to trot up on a typical driveway. That said I do think vets are better than they used to be, I've not had much said about my horse being barefoot for a while now, and my main vet is pro barefoot.

My Appy would be one that would wince over stones. 13 now and never been shod. My farrier says she's a bit of a princess because she has tough feet and never reacts to hoof testers but stand on a tiny pebble and she'll waggle the hoof until a human slave removes the pebble.

I did have a physio give me A Look and say to shoe her after a trot up down the driveway like it was hot coals (she went down that drive at least 4x day...). When I asked what they were hoping to achieve given she was in light work and ridden on grass and tarmac I did get the vibe of "you're being cruel".

She has boots but her ouchy does coincide with her PSSM playing up so I don't think it's all foot so much as everything sore. But then I tend to doubt myself and wonder if I'd should have shod her 8 years ago.

 

[smolmaus]

I've used this physio myself, and it makes me wonder if we are on the same page with the whole barefoot/biomechanics thing. What are shoes “supporting?”

Maybe it's less of an ethical whole-horse view mis-match and more of a question of practicality. If the priority is getting the horse comfortable and back in work then shoes solve the immediate problem and the rest can be a work in progress. If this was your horse and the same physio knew your priority was going to be long-term balanced biomechanics and barefoot then she might have given you a different answer.

I've had a few conversations about this with my own physio, who I love, and she has to meet people where they are. She knows I will do my homework, I'm interested in the biomechanics even if I don't know a lot, horse happiness is the only priority with "performance" as a footnote so I get stretches and groundwork/ pole-work programs and activation movements to do long-term for every day maintenance which is what I want! But other clients have a horse for a job and want her to come, do a massage or myofascial release or something, some ultrasound therapy and "fix" an issue so they can get on with things.

 

[FitzyFitz]

Can't answer the question, but I would love to hear case studies of any horses with that exact issue, got 7 horses on the property with only 2 pairs of shoes between them and one is for that very reason.

He's 12, and has been shod since 4yo when he started walking with a distinct twisting action to his hind legs and rapidly wore down the outside edge of both hooves. Vets advice was to shoe behind to prevent the excess wear and gently work him to build up proper musculature and straight movement. It definitely helped and he lost most of the twist over time but continued to wear the outside edge of his shoes down to a knife edge.
Whole body conformation has always been poor but regular physio and plenty of fitness kept him looking quite good overall but never resolved the hind leg issue. I tried taking his shoes off over winter one year and he wore them down into little wedges very quickly.
Now he's retired (bone spur in coffin joint and navicular) and barefoot in front which has really helped the navicular, but still shod behind and still wearing them wonky.

I'm definitely pro-barefoot but in this particular case he's going to stay shod unless someone shows me a pretty compelling case study! Poor sod has just got multiple issues stacking up against him, yes shoeing is unnatural but i'm pretty sure he'd die in the wild. I figure it's like everything with horses, there is no one answer that suits 100% of cases.