Question about 'functional' flying changes...

[palo1]

I am not looking to compete and understand why a horse needs to have the correct development and work in order to be able to make a comfortable (for them) flying change but I am just playing with this with my Welsh D and I am interested to hear opinions and experiences. Tin hat is installed!! So my little mare has a lovely canter on either rein - I think canter is probably her 'best' in fact! Trot is always something that we need to work on to ensure that she is not rushing or unnecessarily 'extending' (in the Welsh way - ie lots of push from behind but a bit too much knee lifting and 'showing off' in front hahahaha) or dawdling - not really sure why but I am fairly certain it is because of the way I started to install the ridden trot when I first started under saddle work with her. My problem, not hers and increasingly trot is more consistent. So the trot is the 'issue' I have with changes. Because I am playing at changes on a figure of eight, at the moment I am still asking for a couple of trot strides across X where I ask for the change in leg; I really don't think she is ready for a canter/canter change tbh as it seems to take a bit for her organise herself lol.

I have previously been taught and taught horses to learn the changes in a simple way by doing the figure of 8 exercise and in the past that has seemed logical and fairly straightforward. The thing we have going on at the moment is that when we hit X and I ask for a couple of trot strides, before the change in canter lead she is really all over the shop. I guess I need to do more work on trot? Yesterday, just playing she kind of shocked herself with an early change behind whilst her little front legs were still doing the trot strides - full marks for trying actually but obviously she isn't going to find this muddle very helpful!

I don't need a 'competition' flying change - it's just about manoeverability, fun etc and I know that in other disciplines to dressage (such as polo) changes are subject to far less pearl clutching lol. I have always found it helpful to have a couple of strides, decreasing until you can just ask for the change but I don't think this is quite the right strategy for Alw. So I would like to find some alternatives to play with and would really appreciate any suggestions! Is it just a case of improving the trot and her balance in that so that the 'prep' is easier for her? I think I am probably answering my own question here actually but really helpful to write it down and also have any views on this approach. What I am looking to achieve is a comfortable and confident change - not a fancy one, just a 'functional' change of leg iykwim. Thinking cattle horse style lol!! Any ideas much appreciated. I am having great fun but I want to make it easier for her if possible; happy to chip away at trot or consider alternatives as there is no deadline, no prize to be won!!

 

[milliepops]

What happens if you just have a punt at a flying change? If canter is her best pace, bringing her back to trot where she loses balance seems a bit unproductive.

After the first horse I taught changes to struggled after too much prep, I've become much more gung ho over the years. They change readily in the field after all

 

[palo1]

What happens if you just have a punt at a flying change? If canter is her best pace, bringing her back to trot where she loses balance seems a bit unproductive.

After the first horse I taught changes to struggled after too much prep, I've become much more gung ho over the years. They change readily in the field after all

I haven't tried punting a change tbh!! I guess I feel that I need the prep time; perhaps she doesn't! I suspect that it might be quite exciting - erm, eek!! Her 'celebrations' can be quite boisterous lol! Alternatively that she offers counter canter as my ask may not be clear enough but yes, I might just try going for it as then I will know what we have to play with and I can continue with the trot work as a separate 'thing'. It doesn't feel helpful to use the thing she finds hardest as prep for something new even though the general idea sort of makes sense. Thanks for the encouragement to play

 

[TPO]

Can she does canter/walk and vice versa?

If so might be worth doing a couple strides of walk where she might be more balanced than in the trot.

 

[palo1]

Can she does canter/walk and vice versa?

If so might be worth doing a couple strides of walk where she might be more balanced than in the trot.

Hmm, walk to canter is very variable in honesty but that is definitely something I could build on and try as well - it probably would be easier for her to find her balance from walk and I hadn't thought of that She can get quite keen so anticipating the canter would work well I think from walk. She is a clever thing but she is also a compact and strong pony so we have plenty of 'oomph' and slightly less refinement lol!!

 

[milliepops]

You will possibly find your simple changes improve when the flying ones get established.. a lot of it is down to the timing of the aid to get the horse in the correct phase of the stride so they can step forward into a walk stride instead of flop. I've definitely experienced that in the past. The timing of the aid being key to clean changes IMO as well... I'm afraid i can't articulate it because i had a feel lightbulb when i broke Kira's changes (through overpreparing ) and have been better at riding them ever since

she had an easy natural change that i encouraged as soon as she could canter in the arena and I effed it up by trying to do too much. Hence my encouragement to just have a play. you can learn a lot about your horse by playing and you are unlikely to break anything. plus play = less pressure to get anything *right*, it's just experimenting.

I don't particularly use a figure of 8 as it can be a lot of changes of balance and requires a fair bit of straightness control to keep shoulders and quarters pointing the right way, i don't use poles either though i know both methods work for different people and of course each horse is an individual so whatever helps the penny to drop is worth using.
I've usually ridden the first ones on a diagonal heading towards a corner/wall, a short or long diagonal depending on the horse's ability to balance on a straight line, the corner giving the horse the suggestion to change. If she gets a bit gung ho is there a barrier of some kind you can ride towards? in an arena you can back them off by riding the change more directly towards the fence or wall but appreciate you might be in fields at this point.

 

[oldie48]

That's how we started t teach Rose her changes, she would do a decent change on her own terms but not when asked. Just to add a bit to MPs post, get a good quality canter , half circle at A or C corner making it as small as the horse can cope with, returning to the long side in CC and take a short diagonal towards the corner and apply the aids for a change. Worked for Rose as long as we didn't do it too often so she started to anticipate.

 

[daffy44]

I agree wih MP if canter is best, and trot requires more support from the rider, then if you are thinking about changes stick with canter and leave trot out of it. You mentioned that polo ponies and show jumpers are taught changes very early with far less precision than a dressage rider wants, and they certainly dont bother with trot, they generally rely on a change in balance/direction to get the horse to want to change to save itself.

Others have mentioned different places/ways to ask for the change, certainly if you think the change might be too wild do it heading towards the wall so you dont need to interfer too much, let the wall act as your breaks. Everyone has a way that works best for them and their style of riding, so dont be afraid to just play about and see what works best for you both, you dont need to be too careful, the world wont end if you get a dodgy change! Just try a few things, have fun, no pressure, and do whats best for you.

 

[sbloom]

I would definitely work on the walk to and from canter transitions, it asks for much more collection and essentially you need that collection for flying changes. It's the progression in dressage tests and most people's training (allowing for exceptions for quirky!). Do bear in mind that pushing from the back end can push the horse onto the forehand, even with knee action, if the thoracic sling isn't lifted. Many horses at all levels manage to compensate (not a good thing) but it's much better to have it lifted for all sorts of reasons.

 

[palo1]

You will possibly find your simple changes improve when the flying ones get established.. a lot of it is down to the timing of the aid to get the horse in the correct phase of the stride so they can step forward into a walk stride instead of flop. I've definitely experienced that in the past. The timing of the aid being key to clean changes IMO as well... I'm afraid i can't articulate it because i had a feel lightbulb when i broke Kira's changes (through overpreparing ) and have been better at riding them ever since

she had an easy natural change that i encouraged as soon as she could canter in the arena and I effed it up by trying to do too much. Hence my encouragement to just have a play. you can learn a lot about your horse by playing and you are unlikely to break anything. plus play = less pressure to get anything *right*, it's just experimenting.

I don't particularly use a figure of 8 as it can be a lot of changes of balance and requires a fair bit of straightness control to keep shoulders and quarters pointing the right way, i don't use poles either though i know both methods work for different people and of course each horse is an individual so whatever helps the penny to drop is worth using.
I've usually ridden the first ones on a diagonal heading towards a corner/wall, a short or long diagonal depending on the horse's ability to balance on a straight line, the corner giving the horse the suggestion to change. If she gets a bit gung ho is there a barrier of some kind you can ride towards? in an arena you can back them off by riding the change more directly towards the fence or wall but appreciate you might be in fields at this point.

Yes, we are in a field but I can head toward a decent hedge and actually Alw is very unlikely to run off or do anything really daft - just a few yeehaaa!! moments. I can manufacture a corner easily in the field (by using the boundary). I will try to do some more work with walk to canter and not overthink the change - there really isn't any pressure but it's nice to have a plan for getting to a different place. Thanks.

 

[palo1]

I would definitely work on the walk to and from canter transitions, it asks for much more collection and essentially you need that collection for flying changes. It's the progression in dressage tests and most people's training (allowing for exceptions for quirky!). Do bear in mind that pushing from the back end can push the horse onto the forehand, even with knee action, if the thoracic sling isn't lifted. Many horses at all levels manage to compensate (not a good thing) but it's much better to have it lifted for all sorts of reasons.

Yes, I need to be aware of that and try to do some work to get that lift whenever I can. Thank you.

 

[palo1]

I agree wih MP if canter is best, and trot requires more support from the rider, then if you are thinking about changes stick with canter and leave trot out of it. You mentioned that polo ponies and show jumpers are taught changes very early with far less precision than a dressage rider wants, and they certainly dont bother with trot, they generally rely on a change in balance/direction to get the horse to want to change to save itself.

Others have mentioned different places/ways to ask for the change, certainly if you think the change might be too wild do it heading towards the wall so you dont need to interfer too much, let the wall act as your breaks. Everyone has a way that works best for them and their style of riding, so dont be afraid to just play about and see what works best for you both, you dont need to be too careful, the world wont end if you get a dodgy change! Just try a few things, have fun, no pressure, and do whats best for you.

Yes, the polo pony experience is one I have some familiarity with and have been trying to keep in mind in terms of the rider input. I have just been a bit muddled in my thinking - wanting to do it 'properly' but also without pressure or agenda. And in a sloping field on my bounding little cob lol!

ETA - Trying to do a change from trot has felt a bit like trying to shove a watermelon into a sock when one is in a frantic hurry - not usually a successful endeavour lol.

 

[palo1]

That's how we started t teach Rose her changes, she would do a decent change on her own terms but not when asked. Just to add a bit to MPs post, get a good quality canter , half circle at A or C corner making it as small as the horse can cope with, returning to the long side in CC and take a short diagonal towards the corner and apply the aids for a change. Worked for Rose as long as we didn't do it too often so she started to anticipate.

I like this idea and will add it to the toolbox; we have a counter canter which will be helpful possibly though I think we do need to work on the quality of the canter and I suspect that walk to canter exercises will be more helpful than trot-canter. I have some good exercises to help with trot consistency and balance which I can do at other times.

 

[palo1]

I am having great fun playing with several suggestions thanks all! Walk to canter is interesting and clearly needs more work but it is improving all the time and I think that will help with lots of things. We have a happy counter canter on each rein too so I need to be much clearer if/when asking for any kind of change. As I have realised that walk to canter is revealing some holes I am really interested to work on that at the moment and leave any intention of changes for a week or so. Alw, bless her, sort of understands the aid to canter from walk but obviously thinks we have to try to trot first - as she has been taught. By me!! But today she started to offer a much nicer, softer walk to canter so I left it there. We tried punting a couple of polo style changes but she is a compact, quite balanced little thing so counter canter seemed easy for her lol. That will be handy too so in view of not wanting too many asks today we went with enjoying counter canter on each rein and lovely clean walk to canter transitions. Not there yet and a bit wild in places - think walk to spook, fall out, canter left, canter right or simply quite a yee-haaa transition lol.

But I think we are both really enjoying doing this stuff. Brava Alw!!

 

[oldie48]

It's fun to play! I'm doing similar with Mr D. He has established changes but he can be a bit pedantic when it comes to aids, which is great for a schoolmaster type! I haven't asked for a change yet but I'm working towards it by ensuring I get a consistently good canter, his simple changes through walk on a half circle are really good but I'm now asking for them on a straight line and because he's not as familiar with that exercise I have to be very clear with my aids. I'm doing all the prep work because if I don't get everything right, he's likely to buck into the change and I don't want to have a flying lesson which is a great incentive to try to make sure I get a clean change! My previous horses were so much easier in this respect but sometimes gave me a change just because I was a bit unbalanced so it's swings and roundabouts! Good luck with this and keep us posted on progress.

 

[palo1]

It's fun to play! I'm doing similar with Mr D. He has established changes but he can be a bit pedantic when it comes to aids, which is great for a schoolmaster type! I haven't asked for a change yet but I'm working towards it by ensuring I get a consistently good canter, his simple changes through walk on a half circle are really good but I'm now asking for them on a straight line and because he's not as familiar with that exercise I have to be very clear with my aids. I'm doing all the prep work because if I don't get everything right, he's likely to buck into the change and I don't want to have a flying lesson which is a great incentive to try to make sure I get a clean change! My previous horses were so much easier in this respect but sometimes gave me a change just because I was a bit unbalanced so it's swings and roundabouts! Good luck with this and keep us posted on progress.

Thank you - I find the forum a really lovely place to 'think aloud' lol as I am on my own almost all of the time. It is really helpful for me in terms of staying motivated and having somewhere to have a conversation about the tiny bits of training/flatwork that we can do. It's a bit disheartening to always be on your own so I am really grateful for all and any answers to questions hahahaha. I went through a few weeks of feeling a bit 'meh' about working Alw tbh as my older horse is a very refined and athletic chap who finds so much so easy though he doesn't particularly enjoy school work. But the more I am doing and thinking about, the more I appreciate Alw's attitude, her physical ability to produce a lovely sense of power, and her joie de vivre in the things we do! Yesterday, although much was rough and ready in the schooling I had 'that' feeling of potential which is really exciting for me. I loved the physicality of her approach and when she does soften and understand what I am asking for, I think it is quite special. Happy days.

 

[Northern]

This thread has encouraged me to start the changes with my Haflinger. She's not the most natural change-r in the paddock and loves her counter canter so I knew introducing them wouldn't be that easy but we need them to progress up to the next level. However this week I decided on a somewhat "gung-ho" approach and I'm really pleased to report that despite being messy, she's started to realise she needs to do something with her legs when I ask. Finished yesterday on an offered change out of counter canter in the corner. Will take a lot of polishing but the ground stones are set She's a smart little thing so I am curious to see how she progresses with these.

 

[palo1]

This thread has encouraged me to start the changes with my Haflinger. She's not the most natural change-r in the paddock and loves her counter canter so I knew introducing them wouldn't be that easy but we need them to progress up to the next level. However this week I decided on a somewhat "gung-ho" approach and I'm really pleased to report that despite being messy, she's started to realise she needs to do something with her legs when I ask. Finished yesterday on an offered change out of counter canter in the corner. Will take a lot of polishing but the ground stones are set She's a smart little thing so I am curious to see how she progresses with these.

Brilliant stuff!! Gives me hope Lovely to have the encouragement to play and experiment too. How did you ask for a change in a way that made it clear to your Haffie? Hungry for ideas here lol!

 

[Northern]

Brilliant stuff!! Gives me hope Lovely to have the encouragement to play and experiment too. How did you ask for a change in a way that made it clear to your Haffie? Hungry for ideas here lol!

She's got quite an established counter canter (think 20m circles happily in CC), so we started off by suggesting counter bend until she could comfortably follow the aid without losing her balance a few months ago. I tried the changes the other day as suggested above, small canter circle into CC and approaching the short side ask by first changing bend, then leg and weight aids. Next time I will bring my dressage whip and add a tap on the hind end which has encouraged her in the past (rudimentary tries last year before we left them along to concentrate on other stuff). What has also worked on her in the past is to try the changes on a 20m CC circle the same way as above. I can't do that at home as my school surface is not great. It worked well on a proper, flat surface though

 

[palo1]

She's got quite an established counter canter (think 20m circles happily in CC), so we started off by suggesting counter bend until she could comfortably follow the aid without losing her balance a few months ago. I tried the changes the other day as suggested above, small canter circle into CC and approaching the short side ask by first changing bend, then leg and weight aids. Next time I will bring my dressage whip and add a tap on the hind end which has encouraged her in the past (rudimentary tries last year before we left them along to concentrate on other stuff). What has also worked on her in the past is to try the changes on a 20m CC circle the same way as above. I can't do that at home as my school surface is not great. It worked well on a proper, flat surface though

Thanks - that sounds very sensible and well planned.