question for those who NEVER smack their horses

Most my horses have had a smack every now and again. But I do have one that rears and boxes and if you ever raised a hand to him Iknow he would explode and you would get hurt. Iv learnt to ignore him praise him when he comes down and ask him to walk on the calmer you are the better I do shout his name seem to bring him back to earth. But smacking is a big no no.
 
fattylumpkin said:
Since I missed the cue to warn her off before she could actually lunge, I had braced myself up to just take the bite since I could see it was coming (she was aiming for my belly too so I was thinking 'ohhh this is going to hurt') and be on my guard for next time so I could catch her before she could try it again. Then she surprised me by not following through with her threat. So I know this is probably weird, but yeah, take the bite and just be on guard to catch her at the right moment next time. If there is one.
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God forbid you ever get one that means it...
 
My boy can be a temperamental little so and so. He's a lot like a child, if he's hungry/ tired or not on routine he's very grumpy. When I first got him he would barge out the stable door, bite, kick and once when leading he reared up at me.

I hate to say it bur when he reared at me he got a hiding, at the time I was selling him but I knew he wasn't leaving until I could trust him.

I now get complimented on how beautifully behaved he is. Lots of different people handle him and he's a saint. Occasionally he'll try to nip but a growl normally works, if not a well timed smack.

He was just a spoilt little brat of a pony pushing the boundaries but now they're firmly in place. In the wrong hands he would probably regress and go back to spoilt brat mode.
 
JLD said:
genuine question - I know some people would never ever smack their horses and I was wondering how you would respond to naughtyness or exert discipline. I will occasionally give mine a slap on his neck or side if he tries to kick out or bite ( is not in pain - has been allowed to get away with allsorts without being taught appropriate behaviour before I got him ) - am not talking beatings just a light slap and a firm 'no', and was wondering how I could alternatively reprimand him so he knows not to do it ? it doesnt seem a problem and he hardly ever does it now having done it all the time before.
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ive always been taught that smacking an animal is wrong, but its however youve been brought up. i have been told to ignore the bad and praise the good, make it easy for the horse to understand what is needed from him, if he doesnt do what you want then your asking the wrong questions. also if you smack a horse with your hand and then pat him with the same hand it can apparently become confusing for the horse. i always think of Parelli's three P's. "A horse is either Prey, prisoner or partner" and personally i would never smack a partner.
 
Dreamer515 said:
ive always been taught that smacking an animal is wrong, but its however youve been brought up. i have been told to ignore the bad and praise the good, make it easy for the horse to understand what is needed from him, if he doesnt do what you want then your asking the wrong questions. also if you smack a horse with your hand and then pat him with the same hand it can apparently become confusing for the horse. i always think of Parelli's three P's. "A horse is either Prey, prisoner or partner" and personally i would never smack a partner.
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A lovely concept. Have you ever had a spoilt horse to deal with and make into your perfect partner. Thankfully very few need smacking. In forty years of keeping horses my new mare is the only one that needed a very firm hand, just the once and she is a totally different horse. Left to her own way of thinking and in weak ownership I have no doubt she would knock a person to the ground and have a go.

Is her temperament poor - no, not at all, but her start in life was. Irish bog trotter, imported age 3, swiftly broken by a well known cob importer and sold age 4 (believe that at your peril) into a lovely but totally novice home. She spent the following 18 months ruling the roost and terrifying her owners, she imprisoned her owners not the other way round !

She is a partner now, but should she ever attempt to bite or barge again, she will be smacked, hard and just once.
 
Cortez said:
If anything struck out at me it would be seriously sorry, to this day! There is NO EXCUSE for a a horse being aggressive to the handler; none.
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this comment really bugs me, what excuse does a human have to being aggresive to a horse. a horse whos natural instincs are to run from danger, who is stronger and sharper. bad behaviour breads bad behaviour. if you were to hit another human do you expect them to stand there and take it or hit back?. take away their flight defences and some will fight when they belive they are in danger...people say that horses are stupid, personally i think its the other way round as horses have to try to understand their own "Language" as well as human talk. where as some (not all) just expect horses to know exactly what is expected of them without making mistakes. i think a horse has every excuse to be aggresive to a handler when not treated with respect and fairness. no horse is born evil, if theres any bad habits or "nasty" habits its what its learnt from us humans! There is NO EXCUSE for a handler being aggressive to a horse; none!
 
Dreamer515 said:
this comment really bugs me, what excuse does a human have to being aggresive to a horse. a horse whos natural instincs are to run from danger, who is stronger and sharper. bad behaviour breads bad behaviour. if you were to hit another human do you expect them to stand there and take it or hit back?. take away their flight defences and some will fight when they belive they are in danger...people say that horses are stupid, personally i think its the other way round as horses have to try to understand their own "Language" as well as human talk. where as some (not all) just expect horses to know exactly what is expected of them without making mistakes. i think a horse has every excuse to be aggresive to a handler when not treated with respect and fairness. no horse is born evil, if theres any bad habits or "nasty" habits its what its learnt from us humans! There is NO EXCUSE for a handler being aggressive to a horse; none!
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So in your opinion, my mare had every right to bite into my skull as I bent beneath her to put her knee boots on ?
 
AdorableAlice said:
A lovely concept. Have you ever had a spoilt horse to deal with and make into your perfect partner. Thankfully very few need smacking. In forty years of keeping horses my new mare is the only one that needed a very firm hand, just the once and she is a totally different horse. Left to her own way of thinking and in weak ownership I have no doubt she would knock a person to the ground and have a go.

Is her temperament poor - no, not at all, but her start in life was. Irish bog trotter, imported age 3, swiftly broken by a well known cob importer and sold age 4 (believe that at your peril) into a lovely but totally novice home. She spent the following 18 months ruling the roost and terrifying her owners, she imprisoned her owners not the other way round !

She is a partner now, but should she ever attempt to bite or barge again, she will be smacked, hard and just once.
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i have worked with many horses with behaviour problems, or as we call them 'horses with people problems' and a lot of bulshy/bargy racehorses aswel, im not saying let them walk over you, but you have to be fair, i know i wouldnt like to be smacked for possibly retaliating against something that scared/hurt me. im not saying this is always the case but 9/10 there is always a root problem as to why horses do things. maybe they just never got taught how to have manners so they think its acceptable behaviour, then suddenly they get a smack for something they have always done and it can confuse them. i just think there are far better ways to solve issues and i have had a lot of experience and always have brilliant results. it may take longer than some methods but as long as myself and the horse is happy then i dont care how long it takes.
 
there you need to ask, why did she bite? is she in pain? something irritating her? or was she just being "rude"? im not saying it was you that taught her that this is ok but maybe she doesnt realise this is wrong, if she was a biter why put yourself in a position to make it easier for her to bite you? i just dont think anything can justify hiting a horse.
 
AdorableAlice said:
So in your opinion, my mare had every right to bite into my skull as I bent beneath her to put her knee boots on ?
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im not saying that she had a right, but maybe she is trying to tell you something is irritating her, if you were to hit her what good would it be? sure you might feel better for doing it but to that horse it can have such a negative effect. how can you expect her to trust you if you turn around and smack her?
 
Adorablealice my pony did the very same as yours a few years ago, bit me on my head, and drew blood. I didnt have a hat on! Oh my god, I screamed,it was agony!!! I had a brush in my hand at the time and he got smacked very hard in the chest, sort of a first reflex to the shock of it, but he was just as shocked, and jumped back. I didn't think I was a hitter, but I'm not sure how else I could have responded. He also used to have a habit of grabbing a finger and crunching on it, not letting go! I lost my thumb nail once!!! Agin, he had a smack on the chest, as couldnt get him to let go!! The preloved advert in the other thread could very well have been written about him, he was genuinely a nightmare, as he a) had never been set boundaries b) he had been shunted around from pillar to post. But. Couldn't let him get away with that. He's now a very sweet natured rising 10 year old and I honestly can't remember the last time I had to tell him off, other than a growly 'walk on' when he spooks at the same pheasant feeder,every day!!!!
 
Physical reprimand is my last resort as this would mean that I have missed the warning signs and have failed to correct the behaviour leading up to dangerous behaviour etc that may warrant a harsher reprimand. My filly is only 2 so she has no past history of bad habits to correct but as with all h
 
...as with all horses they will test the boundaries and it is up to us to be consistent as to not let little things evolve so in essence we are always training whenever in contact with a horse.
 
I have a two year old who has had a brilliant upbringing, and I've never needed to so much raise my voice at him. My other pony (the head biter and finger cruncher) had got away with so so much in the past, and under the bolshy, nasty exterior he did just want clear boundaries, respect and to be loved. I don't regret hitting him at all when he bit my head or took my thumb nail off, he had the potential to be very very dangerous, it was only me who stuck up for him for years when everyone else hated him!!! :)
 
Mine very rarely needs a smack, but most of it is either if she thinks about napping & a small get on with voice & stick always work. In the stable, she will threaten to bit but voice usually works; however once when she got me she ran back in the stable so no need as she new what she had done was wrong.
 
Tinypony said:
All I'm saying is that sometimes when horses piss us off they aren't being aggressive, bolshy or disrespectful - they are just horses being horses.
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I wonder if it's a lot more than sometimes myself. Horses are reactive and as was pointed out earlier, they usually give more subtle signals before being aggressive.
 
Dreamer515 said:
there you need to ask, why did she bite? is she in pain? something irritating her? or was she just being "rude"? im not saying it was you that taught her that this is ok but maybe she doesnt realise this is wrong, if she was a biter why put yourself in a position to make it easier for her to bite you? i just dont think anything can justify hiting a horse.
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She has never been taught boundaries, manners or been correctly halter broken as a foal/young horse. She is immensely intelligent and did not find herself in the right hands until now.

If I cannot move around any of my horses without having to think I must not put myself where they can reach me to bite or kick I would give up immediately. I expect my horses to be respectful and I train them to be mannerly, pleasant and safe to be around. She is now a happy horse and no longer needs to be reminded to wait in gateways, move over when asked etc oh.. and not to bite people. Sadly this was achieved with a smack and so be it.

Her ridden work was awful, nappy and dead to the leg, inverted and frightened of her mouth. This was all improved by careful riding, lots of bending and stretching work and physio. She is now a happy forward going, comfortable ride. I forgot to tell you, she is a lump of power, clydesdale x RID, weighing in at over 700kg with 12" of bone. All she lacked was 'I am the boss' stamped on her forehead.

Parrelli has it's followers, I am not one of them. The only horse I have dealt with that was parrelli trained was a 3 year old haflinger. It was unbelievably dangerous, preferring to stand on it's hind legs and poke a front foot in my face, it had no concept of personal space, did not lead or tie up and used it's teeth with gay abandon. We all have different views on how we raise, train and enjoy our horses. Hopefully we all get immense pleasure from our hobby. I certainly have over many years and long may it continue. I think age has an input in how we handle our horses, I was taught by stud grooms and old fashioned nagsmen rather than commercial gimmicky methods that are often seen today. Having said that I have a dually halter which is a useful addition to my old fashioned simple rope halter, especially for lessons tied up.
 
It worries me immensely that people who keep herd animals, who are disciplined very firmly by the alphas in a herd situation, are so blind to the need to react decisively when the horse does something dangerous. They are too big, too strong and potentially too dangerous to be allowed to bite, barge, kick etc, without being shown, the same way as the aha in a herd would show them, that their behaviour is not acceptable. I love my horses to bits, but I do not regard them as equal partners in the relationship. I am in charge, and they need to be respectful of my alpha position, because it would be dangerous for the status quo to be any other way. I rarely hit mine, as they are all well behaved, respect my space, and don't generally bite or kick. If they did, I would make it very clear that I wasn't going to tolerate that behaviour - the same way that the alpha horse in my herd dishes out a bite or a kick to keep his minions in order.
 
Clearly nobody is ever going to agree. However I would ask whether any of the anti-smack at any cost brigade have ever had to deal with something like a young, bolshy horse brought up on a one-foal yard for example? When you have 16hh (and growing) of intelligent animal weighing over half a ton, who has not learnt manners as a foal, sometimes "ah ah" just isn't enough.
 
Dreamer515 said:
im not saying that she had a right, but maybe she is trying to tell you something is irritating her, if you were to hit her what good would it be? sure you might feel better for doing it but to that horse it can have such a negative effect. how can you expect her to trust you if you turn around and smack her?
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I think we have to agree to disagree on how you and I handle our horses. The mare totally trusts me now because she realises I am her leader and not the other way round. She has become very vocal now and is always waiting at the field gate when she hears me arrive. I am happy with her behaviour and do not fear for my safety when i am handling her. Should she ever come to the market I would make sure she does not go a novice home.

No doubt I have come across as a dominant and cruel owner. If you glance at the thread called My next equine project, you will see I am not. That thread details my journey with a feral, petrified shire horse who is a very different animal to the bolshy mare. Good luck with your horses and methods of training, we are all different.
 
I have had my very difficult mare from the day she was born and yes she was born with an attitude. You can't hit her as it makes her a 100 times worse, however she does have manners and I do trust more than some!! She is 22yrs now and still a cow! An example: I put rug on last night as peeing down and she proceeds to buck on the spot pulling faces at me. If I was to smack her she more then likely to hit me back. My other horse I never have to tell off.
 
What about horses that react when tack is applied or they are groomed in certain areas etc? To me that raises a possibility of something physical going on. For eg. horses with gastric ulcers and or hind gut irritation can be very sensitive and protective of their abdomen, girth area and backs. They can have problems lifting legs even I believe.
 
Nudibranch said:
Clearly nobody is ever going to agree. However I would ask whether any of the anti-smack at any cost brigade have ever had to deal with something like a young, bolshy horse brought up on a one-foal yard for example? When you have 16hh (and growing) of intelligent animal weighing over half a ton, who has not learnt manners as a foal, sometimes "ah ah" just isn't enough.
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Yes I do have that experience. My Arabian foal, only youngster on the yard, lots of mistakes made. She was very "opinionated" and strong willed - but always in charge of any group of horses she was turned out with, from the age of about 9 months, so I think that was probably just her horse's nature showing. She was the one who started me wanting to do things differently, and started me questioning why so many people seemed to so regularly shout, growl at and slap their horses. I've dealt with rearing, kicking, biting, mad bucking fit (that was pain, but I still had to get off safely!), all sorts of stuff without feeling the need to constantly "reprimand" with a slap. I'm not saying I'm any saint, or even criticising those who do slap, but it is interesting how once you get the mindset that it's not the best thing to do, somehow you stop doing it and the horse still turns out great.

Over the years I've had experience with all sorts, but she's the one who fits your query.
 
As I mentioned earlier I am not against physical reprimand as a last resort to nip dangerous behaviour in the bud, emotions should not come into play it should be a sharp shock more than anything to put the horse off doing it again. I have used a timely pop with the leadrope on my then yearlings rear as she cow kicked and she has not done it since.

Anyway... what does get me thinking is, yes horses bite and kick each other but that is their known language but humans as predators lashing out...it does make me think, horses arnt stupid they know we are not another horse and I do worry it does destroy a bit of trust as we as predators spend so much time building trust and a bond (makes me think more deeply as my girl is only 2) and convincing them that we are not a danger. Does anyone else think about it this way?

I'm not saying there is a right or wrong just something I worry about personally, bringing on a youngster.
 
GeorgeyGal said:
Anyway... what does get me thinking is, yes horses bite and kick each other but that is their known language but humans as predators lashing out...it does make me think, horses arnt stupid they know we are not another horse and I do worry it does destroy a bit of trust as we as predators spend so much time building trust and a bond (makes me think more deeply as my girl is only 2) and convincing them that we are not a danger. Does anyone else think about it this way?
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Yes, me! lol

It's taken me a while to tease out in my mind and separate the learning about horse behaviour and using it to our advantage from the human as part of a horse herd/society thinking.
 
I've learnt to never say never when it comes to horses! I think if you remove emotion and set your horse up to learn something to stop dangerous behaviour a well timed pop can be beneficial, even better if you can administer the pop so the horse doesn't link it with you, a bit like when Richard Maxwell uses a rope to pop a rearing horse on the chest under saddle. Very different to smacking out of fear, anger and frustration.., then again as mentioned a smack as a reflex action to a bite etc, wrong? no, better than doing nothing, and something to learn from and to set the horse up to learn good behaviour to try and ensure it doesnt happen again, a bit like banking your positives, you don't want negatives upsetting the balance. It's interesting though isn't it!
 
Dreamer515 said:
im not saying that she had a right, but maybe she is trying to tell you something is irritating her, if you were to hit her what good would it be? sure you might feel better for doing it but to that horse it can have such a negative effect. how can you expect her to trust you if you turn around and smack her?
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I think your user name says it all, really........
 
I don't smack mine as I don't think it would have any effect. I just use my voice and even my big cob knows when I am not impressed with his behaviour!! I have smacked one of the minis when she has gone to nip me though.
 
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