question for those who NEVER smack their horses

doriangrey said:
I honestly don't get it. I do not think that horses regard us as predators. Maybe I'm being stupid but .. is it just me then?
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I don't think so either. what they are brilliant at is reading body language and from that, mood and intent. I'll smack if I need to but having an Exmoor off the moor has taught me a lot about body language. He doesn't see me so much as a predator as a source of food :D I've had him from weaning, never needed to smack and he's now a well behaved 4yo.

The only thing he did get very reprimanded for, when he was a 2yo and I was feeding hay in the field, he bucked/kicked out. He wasn't that close but got a bucket up his backside. Never had a problem again.
 
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Phew, that's a relief :D. I am getting mixed up with the 'traditional/natural' thread though. So, if I was to link the two threads - being an old bint I would say that it was 'join up' that basically made the difference between IH/NH/traditional. That would be when I thought that things went a bit ar*se up - cue many people trying join up and many confused horses. I do believe Monty Roberts et al have a natural affinity for horses probably more than me. But ... I have never, ever, ever needed to 'join up'. I'm not the be-all-end-all with horses and have worked with my own youngsters. I'm not really knocking the methods, I just don't understand the need.
 
doriangrey said:
Phew, that's a relief :D. I am getting mixed up with the 'traditional/natural' thread though.
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Lol! So am I.

I think the reference to humans being considered a predator comes from the horses fight/flight evolved response to the threat of predators. So, some think if we act in a threatening way it is possible the horse responds as if a threat and some think this is fundamentally the threat of (imminent) predation.
I suppose it's a hard one to sort out as we jump at things that happen suddenly like a loud bang, where does that response come from? We quickly realize it's just a bang and I think the horse does the same with a sudden jolt of some sort.

Just my thoughts on where that one came from,feel free to correct me. lol I'm mainly thinking of us being aggressive to or angry with the horse here.
 
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Mine see me as a predator, thats why they charge up to the gate as soon as they hear the car pull up and follow me around the field when I collect droppings.... Yet I'm one of those unspeakably cruel people who will give a rare smack if they do push the bounderies.
 
amandap said:
Lol! So am I.

I think the reference to humans being considered a predator comes from the horses fight/flight evolved response to the threat of predators. So, some think if we act in a threatening way it is possible the horse responds as if a threat and some think this is fundamentally the threat of (imminent) predation.
I suppose it's a hard one to sort out as we jump at things that happen suddenly like a loud bang, where does that response come from? We quickly realize it's just a bang and I think the horse does the same with a sudden jolt of some sort.

Just my thoughts on where that one came from,feel free to correct me. lol I'm mainly thinking of us being aggressive to or angry with the horse here.
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I wouldn't correct you because I don't think I know more than you or anyone else :) I have a new (unhandled) youngster for a month now and she is a gem. Today we had a bit of a difference, when I bring her in from her bare paddock for the last couple of days I've led her to the orchard for a bit of fresh grass (orchard, lol 3 apple trees and a quarter of acre of grass), but she has ad-ib haylage in her paddock anyway. So today I was leading her in for her tea but she's not stupid - she wanted her bit of grass. I think that's fair enough tbh as I previously allowed it, she got a couple of bites but then came in quite willingly. What would I have done if she'd reacted differently/aggressively? She didn't - but if she did how would people react? I know that people say that you shouldn't put them in the situation where they are reactive, but I want a horse not a robot!
 
Mine get smacked, not often ( but prob more than 'rarely') but they do. They are much bigger than me, and each smack will be reactive and not something I even think about. They do a behaviour that puts me in a bad place and a smack is a result. Sometimes it's a case of their head/neck came into contact ith my hand rather than me hitting them iykwim.

My horse is very polite and well mannered as a general rule, and I rarely smack him but sometimes there is a need to. None of ours are headshy, scared, or otherwise wary of us, I hope they see us as top dog. The only exception is my sisters 4yo who is still a bit fly with his back legs, and as a result I avoid situations where him turning his bum on me can't happen (at 36 weeks pregnant I'm not as nimble as I could be lol) the others I know can take a slap on the bum to move out of the way at feeding time or any other time and they will move away.

Horses bite each other when grooming, so the odd slap from me I would imagine barely registers, there's a VAST difference between a slap and a beating!

Cortez - mine smacked me in the face with a head butt when at a show, he didn't ge reprimanded, mainly because I was too busy trying to find someone to hold him so I could go to the toilets to get some tissue before I bled out all over my white jods :D
 
This thread has given me a bit to think about. I too was wondering about discipline with a youngster as I heard the parting of lips as I asked for a for a front hoof. She's been very good with her feet so far. I reacted to defend myself which I think is fair, with a firm NO and a tap on the shoulder. Then asked for the foot again, when I got the desired result lots of praise.

Using praise a lot with her when she's good, but how do you deal with the unwanted behaviour clearly in certain situations? I admit I just reacted as I didn't want to be bitten, then thought about it later...
 
MissyMew said:
This thread has given me a bit to think about. I too was wondering about discipline with a youngster as I heard the parting of lips as I asked for a for a front hoof. She's been very good with her feet so far. I reacted to defend myself which I think is fair, with a firm NO and a tap on the shoulder. Then asked for the foot again, when I got the desired result lots of praise.

Using praise a lot with her when she's good, but how do you deal with the unwanted behaviour clearly in certain situations? I admit I just reacted as I didn't want to be bitten, then thought about it later...
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Are you sure that she was intending to bite you? Are you sure you needed to defend yourself? If I felt a head coming round in that situation, which doesn't sound as if it was happening at great speed. I'd probably just raise my free hand in the air abruptly with energy. Normally enough to turn a head away. However... one of mine loves to be itched anywhere, particularly on her heels. She will often turn and nuzzle my back when I'm handling her front hooves.

You've got to judge things yourself obviously, you're the one there. I'd just bear in mind that young horses will investigate things with their lips, they will turn to sniff at you etc. So do you just push the nose away to say "not now thanks" or do you assume the intent isn't good and decide to tell the horse off? I've got to say, when I'm out and about I do see a fair few people going after horses verbally or physically that aren't actually intending any aggression.
 
I think it very much depends on the horse, I have a 5 year old stallion who has been spoilt in his previous home and has got away with a lot, I have had him 6 months and is improving all the time, but he is RUDE! He wil walk over you, through you, constantly paw when tied up, nip (well not me now), travels horrendous rearing, bucking, kicking, can't pick his back feet up! If you are stood at the stable door and he comes to look he will turn and nut you! He has a blue pipe!!! And yes I do use it when needs be and we own a busy livery yard and the liveries sometimes think I'm mean but what they forget is, if my stallion doesn't have manners it's their safety and their horses safety at risk! I don't need to hit him so much anymore and yesterday we hacked out side by side with another gelding and he was great so he's improving all the time. I love my boy but he's a dangerous animal and he has to understand I AM BOSS!!
 
Mike007 said:
I think 99.9% of problems are due to the handler lacking experience and the instinct to immediately tell what the horse is about to do,as opposed to handling the problem after it has happend. The time difference may be almost un noticable to onlookers ,yet it is crucial. The moment when you see that the horse has transfered his attention elsewhere when you are leading him, handled immediately it is relatively easy to get them back ,but leave it a moment too long and you suddenly have a battle.Do this too many times and suddenly you have a problem horse.
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This. A horse on amber-alert doesn't need any extra energy input from its handler. Cross-ties (if you need to) calm voice and use your hands to feel for signs of tension when working round him in the stable.
 
I bought my previous mare when she was a 9yr old. Had evented and kept at a professionals yard. They told me she was a biter when I bought her... the day we picked her up she bit me on the knee when I was putting on her travel boots! She nipped me a couple more times over the next couple of days. Then about a week after I had her she took a chunk out of my shoulder when I was putting on her front brushing boots - drew blood and was purple for weeks - well, I have to say I totally lost it! I leapt up, flew at her and bit her straight back *hard* on the nose!! She never did bite me again and was foot perfect for the two years I had her.

The gelding I had at the same time was beaten up quite badly in his previous home... he got a smack every so often at first as he used to paw the life out of the concrete when tied up. He soon learnt not to do it and was well mannered after that.

My three year old is really, really well mannered, but she did get a slap on her bum when I picked up her back leg and she kicked it away. Again, she hasn't tried it again.

I am not one at all for going round beating up horses, but there is no way I will let any of them push me around. They are too big and strong to know they can walk all over you!
 
Do you know what this thread reminded me of?

One of my old horses was sent to an equine college. I decided to do a dressage to music test with him at the equine college whilst he was there. This horse always had TERRIBLE winter grumps and would bite and kick like crazy (or try to)

About 4 years ago, he kicked me across the yard. I was SO winded and shocked I just lay there, unable to get up, but I really did want to get up, I wanted to get up and give him the rollicking of his life.

After that, I ALWAYS kept a long whip handy by his stable in the winter and would use it to ensure he kept a respectable distance from me and didn't invade 'my space' it would also be used if he DID go to bite and kick, a massive growl, stomp of feet and two sharp whacks on his legs with that and he would be fine and to be fair he hardly EVER challenged me. He did however like to challenge a sharer if he had one and successfully managed to scare a few off with his winter grumps.

ANYWAY, the day of the dressage at this college I went to groom and tack him up and he was a nightmare- 10 x more bolshy and bargy and snappy than usual, whilst tacking him up, he struck out with his front leg and got me, right on the shin! I had the whip in my hand and that was it, I screamed at him, he jumped back instantly as he KNEW he'd done wrong and I gave him 2 sharp smacks with the whip. Well, he didn't dare MOVE after that. He did a very nice test and we came second :p

Anyway, 2 days later I recieve an email from the principal saying that two students had witnessed me hitting him and had reported me and that they were seriously considering 'banning' me from the venue?? I was fuming and said that yes, I did smack him twice with the whip and no, I wasn't sorry was 2 seconds earlier he'd struck out and got me on the shin and it bloody HURT and was damn right NOT ON. It was around Oct so just coming into winter and I explained about his winter grumps and that you HAD to be firm with him and set the boundries or he WOULD be dangerous and strike out/bite.

She said this was nonsense and that there was NEVER an excuse to hit a horse and they had a ZERO discipline policy at the college and students were not allowed under ANY circumstances to discipline the horses. They were allowed to growl and say no and that was it. I said that this would NOT work with this horse.

Needless to say (thank god) we got a call a few weeks later to say come and collect him as he was being expelled for biting a student.
 
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Auslander said:
It worries me immensely that people who keep herd animals, who are disciplined very firmly by the alphas in a herd situation, are so blind to the need to react decisively when the horse does something dangerous. They are too big, too strong and potentially too dangerous to be allowed to bite, barge, kick etc, without being shown, the same way as the aha in a herd would show them, that their behaviour is not acceptable. I love my horses to bits, but I do not regard them as equal partners in the relationship. I am in charge, and they need to be respectful of my alpha position, because it would be dangerous for the status quo to be any other way. I rarely hit mine, as they are all well behaved, respect my space, and don't generally bite or kick. If they did, I would make it very clear that I wasn't going to tolerate that behaviour - the same way that the alpha horse in my herd dishes out a bite or a kick to keep his minions in order.
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Of course one MUST be in charge, establish boundaries, teach good manners, etc. with animals that are so large and powerful, but to achieve this is it necessary to act in the way that a dominant horse does to a subordinate? I don't believe it is. I'm not sure I want to be viewed in this way either. If anything, I would prefer to be seen and, more importantly, treated as herd leader (not that I'm particularly keen in general on the idea of adopting an equine role).
 
At every single professional yard I've ever worked at there was zero tolerance of any kind of rudeness from horses, horses were whacked for misbehaviour (once; hard) and the most dreaded horse was one from a "pet" home where they were spoiled. If you think that horses are trained with carrots and sugar lumps, praise and a raised eyebrow for reprimand then you are living in a dream world. And what's all this "predator" stuff? I can't remember the last time I saw humans stalking horses, and neither can the horses.
 
Dreamer515 said:
there you need to ask, why did she bite? is she in pain? something irritating her? or was she just being "rude"? im not saying it was you that taught her that this is ok but maybe she doesnt realise this is wrong, if she was a biter why put yourself in a position to make it easier for her to bite you? i just dont think anything can justify hiting a horse.
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I don't think you've ever had a horse that has the ability to be a git for the sake of it. And I do think that if you ever have the misfortune of having a horse that needs some ground lines teaching you're the one that's going to get booted in the face and have to justify just why it managed to do that to you. We have big horses and a few of them came from places where they were just mechanically put through paces with as little human imput as normal. If you don't establish groundlines at some stageI think you are developing very dangerous horses.

Dreamer515 said:
im not saying that she had a right, but maybe she is trying to tell you something is irritating her, if you were to hit her what good would it be? sure you might feel better for doing it but to that horse it can have such a negative effect. how can you expect her to trust you if you turn around and smack her?
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If you had a horse, who lunged at you with the intension of biting you very hard - what would you do? I don't hit my horses - I don't need to. But when the new one arrived last year and struck out at me it got a smack, a hard one, and it hasn't put a hair out of line since.
 
RunToEarth said:
I don't think you've ever had a horse that has the ability to be a git for the sake of it. And I do think that if you ever have the misfortune of having a horse that needs some ground lines teaching you're the one that's going to get booted in the face and have to justify just why it managed to do that to you. We have big horses and a few of them came from places where they were just mechanically put through paces with as little human imput as normal. If you don't establish groundlines at some stageI think you are developing very dangerous horses.

I have a horse that im working with at the moment that was named "evil" by his previous owners, couldnt groom or catch him in the stable without him getting aggitated and trying to strike out and as for riding he did a very good impresion of a rodeo horse! after 2 weeks i had his calling out whenever he saw me approach the yard and can do most anything now. the first week i didnt even touch him i let him come to me, when he was comftable with my presence i then started going right back to basics with him and yeah it took a while but now you can do anything including sitting on him backwards to groom if you wanted and walking under his belly, he doesnt even flinch when you touch his head and he was real head shy before. i never smack him as i know that if he wanted to he can do more damage to me. he was fed 3 times a day over the door so before anyone says he only came for food no he wasnt starved! his old owners cant believe the difference in him. they used to tell him off when he bit/kicked and it only made him more aggresive. he still has moments when strangers approach and use sudden movements but that is more defensive then aggresive. when ever he gets like that i ignore him untill he settles then he gets attention when he has settled. he had gone for me when he first arrived he went to double barrel me as we were unloading him, i moved quick out of his way and he had a funny 5 where he thought he was going to be beaten for it, when he realized he wasnt going to get 1 we could see him lowering his head and mouthing as he was thinking. his riding has become more relaxed and he hasnt bucked/bolted/reared since i started riding him after the groundwork. i agree smacking horses do get results but for me its a negative approach for being a partner with my horse. people arent allowed to hit kids for stepping out of line so why should a horse be any different? if you dont respect them how can you ask for respect back? over the years ive had several horses come to me with people claiming that they have problems. its what i do its my work but never have i had to smack/hit any and they all leave my yard with more manners and confidence then when they arrived.


If you had a horse, who lunged at you with the intension of biting you very hard - what would you do? I don't hit my horses - I don't need to. But when the new one arrived last year and struck out at me it got a smack, a hard one, and it hasn't put a hair out of line since.
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if a horse lunges at me then i move out of the way. its my job to understand why they behaved like that and also if i know that a horse is prone to doing that then i never let my guard down and try not to give them the opportunity to go through with it.
 
RunToEarth said:
I don't think you've ever had a horse that has the ability to be a git for the sake of it. And I do think that if you ever have the misfortune of having a horse that needs some ground lines teaching you're the one that's going to get booted in the face and have to justify just why it managed to do that to you. We have big horses and a few of them came from places where they were just mechanically put through paces with as little human imput as normal. If you don't establish groundlines at some stageI think you are developing very dangerous horses.



If you had a horse, who lunged at you with the intension of biting you very hard - what would you do? I don't hit my horses - I don't need to. But when the new one arrived last year and struck out at me it got a smack, a hard one, and it hasn't put a hair out of line since.
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I have a horse that im working with at the moment that was named "evil" by his previous owners, couldnt groom or catch him in the stable without him getting aggitated and trying to strike out and as for riding he did a very good impresion of a rodeo horse! after 2 weeks i had his calling out whenever he saw me approach the yard and can do most anything now. the first week i didnt even touch him i let him come to me, when he was comftable with my presence i then started going right back to basics with him and yeah it took a while but now you can do anything including sitting on him backwards to groom if you wanted and walking under his belly, he doesnt even flinch when you touch his head and he was real head shy before. i never smack him as i know that if he wanted to he can do more damage to me. he was fed 3 times a day over the door so before anyone says he only came for food no he wasnt starved! his old owners cant believe the difference in him. they used to tell him off when he bit/kicked and it only made him more aggresive. he still has moments when strangers approach and use sudden movements but that is more defensive then aggresive. when ever he gets like that i ignore him untill he settles then he gets attention when he has settled. he had gone for me when he first arrived he went to double barrel me as we were unloading him, i moved quick out of his way and he had a funny 5 where he thought he was going to be beaten for it, when he realized he wasnt going to get 1 we could see him lowering his head and mouthing as he was thinking. his riding has become more relaxed and he hasnt bucked/bolted/reared since i started riding him after the groundwork. i agree smacking horses do get results but for me its a negative approach for being a partner with my horse. people arent allowed to hit kids for stepping out of line so why should a horse be any different? if you dont respect them how can you ask for respect back? over the years ive had several horses come to me with people claiming that they have problems. its what i do its my work but never have i had to smack/hit any and they all leave my yard with more manners and confidence then when they arrived.
 
You "move out of the way"? Ha! Ha! Ha! Obviously you've never had a horse really go for you then, because there is no way you are ever going to be quicker than a horse that's decided you're for it.
 
Cortez said:
You "move out of the way"? Ha! Ha! Ha! Obviously you've never had a horse really go for you then, because there is no way you are ever going to be quicker than a horse that's decided you're for it.
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Sometimes it is possible, or at least deflect the attempt - depending how you're positioned and assuming you are paying full attention (horses can't move their heads that fast, compared to other animals and people) - and sometimes it isn't.
 
....and sometimes it isn't, which can result in serious injuries or even death. And it's not just teeth; horses can get you with both ends and various things in the middle. Fortunately for us it is very, very rare for horses to really try to hurt you, but if they do, you are NOT going to come out best unless you are really lucky.
 
I very, very rarely smack my horses but I am firm with them when necessary and they do have manners. I find raising my voice/growling far more effective than smacking anyway.
 
I only really smack a horse from the ground when it is safety critical (most often if about to be crushed, but also if being lunged at to be bitten), because it is effective. I on't hit horses who are trying to kick me because I'm too busy moving out of the way, but I have found very few horses in my time who are genuine kickers (as in out of aggression rather than as a reaction or when eating dinner). I don't smack as a reprimand because I don't find it is massively effective, and it can often be counter productive.
 
Cortez said:
You "move out of the way"? Ha! Ha! Ha! Obviously you've never had a horse really go for you then, because there is no way you are ever going to be quicker than a horse that's decided you're for it.
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if you know how to read a horse then you can pick up signals so you can tell when they are going to do something. most give warnings that most people dont even notice. and if my method doesnt work then why have i not ended up seriously hurt as many people are saying they have been close to?
 
lisa_dundee said:
I think it very much depends on the horse, I have a 5 year old stallion who has been spoilt in his previous home and has got away with a lot, I have had him 6 months and is improving all the time, but he is RUDE! He wil walk over you, through you, constantly paw when tied up, nip (well not me now), travels horrendous rearing, bucking, kicking, can't pick his back feet up! If you are stood at the stable door and he comes to look he will turn and nut you! He has a blue pipe!!! And yes I do use it when needs be and we own a busy livery yard and the liveries sometimes think I'm mean but what they forget is, if my stallion doesn't have manners it's their safety and their horses safety at risk! I don't need to hit him so much anymore and yesterday we hacked out side by side with another gelding and he was great so he's improving all the time. I love my boy but he's a dangerous animal and he has to understand I AM BOSS!!
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this is an example of what im saying. this horse is acting like this because he has been spoilt like the owner says. he would have been spoilt by humans and knows no better so he doesnt realize it is not acceptable.
 
Dreamer515 said:
if you know how to read a horse then you can pick up signals so you can tell when they are going to do something. most give warnings that most people dont even notice. and if my method doesnt work then why have i not ended up seriously hurt as many people are saying they have been close to?
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Do you have a website Dreamer? I'd like to know more about you and your methods.
 
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