Dreamer515
Well-Known Member
its the stable name of one of my horses, im sure many others have used their horses names as their user name.
question for those who NEVER smack their horses
- Thread starter JLD
- Start date
its the stable name of one of my horses, im sure many others have used their horses names as their user name.
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
I own a lot of horses and I can't even remember the last time I smacked any of them. Years ago I suspect, but how many I've no idea. However ... I would! If any of my horses did something which put me or another human in danger I would not hesitate to thump the living daylights out of them. I suspect they know that which is why they've probably never pushed me in order to find out.
Sarah1
Well-Known Member
Really?
I haven't gotten all of the way through this thread yet but this comment amazed me!
I'm not advocating beating a horse - it achieves nothing - and yes if you can stop a bite before it happens then great but once your horse has laid it's teeth on you then surely there has to be consequences?! My boy bit me, once, I was talking & not paying attention to him so didn't see it coming but he didn't see my hand coming before it made contact with his snout! Little toad.
martlin
Well-Known Member
Do you also ask them if they feel like a ride and don't ride if they would rather eat grass?
amandap
Well-Known Member
Why are so many horses biting? Well, it seems like a lot to me.
fattylumpkin
Well-Known Member
I'll be 100% honest and say that if this ever comes to pass and it didn't work, ie. she bit once and then a second time I'd consider other options to teach her better manners
but I'm lucky in that I haven't had to and I hope not to either, though I'm not ruling it out since horses are horses. Otherwise working/reinforcing manners with her every time seems to do the job much better than a smack.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Because they have not been raised correctly from foals.
Sarah1
Well-Known Member
Not entirely the case but I agree in principle.
It's a bit like saying why are so many teenagers cheeky little gits? Because they weren't raised properly from children - true in some cases but sometimes it's just teenagers being teenagers! In theory all teenagers, if brought up correctly, should be mild mannered, polite, upstanding members of the community but with the best will in the world and the best upbringing they're not all going to be like that, are they?!
Sometimes horses are just horses and they test the boundaries/have their off days/feel a bit cheeky/whatever. I think they way you deal with the bad manners (in horses & children, incidentally!) is the most important thing and whilst I would never beat my horse I don't think the odd smack on the chest or shoulder (or indeed the end of his nose in this case) does them any harm, on the contrary, he's not bitten me again since that incident...
fburton
Well-Known Member
Judging from the replies in this thread, the most common case appears to be people who do not rule out smacking or other drastic physical measures should the need arise, but who have not needed to for a long time. That's the category I'm in too. I reckon the last time I smacked a horse was 15 years ago, maybe 20. The last time I hit a horse in anger (to my everlasting shame) was in 1978 or so.
In a thread like this, people are naturally going to cite cases of horses biting in order to make the point that smacking can stop that misbehaviour. However, I think many examples of horses that never bit or tried to bite someone could be given too. The pony stallion I knew and handled for 27 years never tried to bite (or kick) me, although allegedly he chased someone out of his paddock once (something I always found hard to believe) so apparently was at least capable of aggression towards people. With him there was never any need even to discourage biting, let alone punish it with a physical reprimand. I'm sure many people here will have had comparable experiences.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I expect you are right.
Forums generally can give a skewed view as so many also ask for help in similar situations/problems.
I'm sure like many others, none of mine have ever bitten me or kicked. One did mouth me when a foal and another pushed her back leg out to warn/tell me once when I was picking out her hoof that was very sore.
scarymare
Well-Known Member
Wow, truly shocked by some of the replies here. I hit my 2 year old yesterday and my 20 year old today!. The 2 year old nipped me in the back when I was in the field doing some work with her 3 year old field mate (neither were tied). I gave her a decent slap on the neck. Today however I saw the 3 year old step over the mark with the field matriarch and she got so much worse than a slap on the neck. For those of you who have fields full of angelic horses then great, I have never hit my yearlings (either of them) or one of my broodmares. However not all horses are born with the same temperaments and an instant meaningful punishment has to be much more easily understood than speaking/growling at them. Nothing to do with this alpha/leader thing - I think that's nonsense tbh. Just need to communicate that nipping/kicking is not acceptable. BTW I bred her, she lives out 24/7 and nothing bad has ever happened to her, just born a bit bold.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Yes, I agree fburton; the vast majority of horses I've had over the years have been well mannered and never offered to do anything untoward. But on the odd occasion that I've had to deal with a rude one, or had other people's spoiled little darlings to train then the most effective, most immediate and fairest way to deal with certain misdemeanours has been a well-judged wallop. And I started off, like many starry-eyed, horse-loving teenagers (as I then was), thinking that I would train this noble, saintly creature with nothing but love, carrots and the power of my special "connection" or bond. Luckily for me (and the horses) I later served a good old fashioned apprenticeship with a wonderful nagsman who soon taught me how a proper horseman trains: fairly; firmly; quietly and clearly, and allowing no nonsense from a half-ton animal that is bigger, faster and dumber than you are.
ETA: I ruined that first pony, BTW and it had to be sorted out by the aforementioned nagsman.
ETA: I ruined that first pony, BTW and it had to be sorted out by the aforementioned nagsman.
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fburton
Well-Known Member
Just wanted to add that most coltish biting, which is more oral or playful in origin than truly aggressive, can be nipped in the bud before one would need to escalate to smacking. For sure, you could apply smacking to that too and get it right with a bit of skill and/or luck, but there are other ways to deal with it. That is assuming that you are working with a horse before bad habits become ingrained. If you have to deal with a horse that someone else has spoiled, as Cortez mentioned, you may not have that luxury!
ShowjumpingPrincess
Well-Known Member
It's only my opinion, but if a horse bites/kicks/barges it needs a smack. Many of us very happy to yank on a horses mouth if it go faster than you want (fair enough) but won't touch it if it PURPOSELY tries to hurt you? We have nine horses and only one is a biter/kicker (only when you are around food) this isn't luck, it's discipline.
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
Talking about coltish biting behaviour I find interesting. I have met two horses in my life that I would describe as true 'biters', as in they would habitually go to bite humans and their first reaction to meeting someone new was to try and rip their face off. They were both riggy geldings and both came from professional studs where all the other horses that had been born there appeared very well mannered. From what I can gather they had both been fairly prolific coltish biters before they were cut and at some point staff on both yards had decided to take a very hard line with them.
The worst of these two was an incredibly perceptive beast. If you walked into his stable with intent and clouted him with a rubber bucket he would behave impeccably and was really quite an affectionate horse, but if you didn't he would attack you. It was like he decided on a case by case basis which humans were worthy of his respect, he was a tricky little horse. Maybe this is a form of natural behaviour of some stallions in the wild, they just take no prisoners. Or maybe the hard line that had been taken with him had just upped the anti so much that anything less he then saw as weakness. I could never decide. However, I did back him and he was an absolute joy to train and ride.
fburton
Well-Known Member
An interesting story, DabDab, but not so unusual I suspect. I wonder if what you described with your 'biters' can be explained fairly straightforwardly by the phenomenon of 'selective weakening' of behaviour by punishment.
This is explained very clearly by Emma Lethbridge in her excellent book Knowing Your Horse: A Guide to Equine Learning, Training and Behaviour.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Knowing-Your-Horse-Learning-Behaviour/dp/1405191643
The book has a whole chapter on punishment, including useful info on its potential side effects and problems, and another whole chapter on how to deal with unwanted behaviours without using punishment.
Here's what she wrote about selective weakening:
It is possible for horses to selectively suppress the punished behaviour until punishment is less likely, either when the punishing handler is no longer present or when the horse believes he is less likely to be punished for the behaviour. Often, when one person delivers punishment to the horse consistently, the horse will learn to suppress the punished behaviour around that person. However, the behaviour is likely to reoccur with other handlers when punishment is less likely. A good example of this is the horse that is pushy with certain people who do not punish the barging behaviour, but perfectly behaved with those who do punish the same behaviour. This effect is especially likely to occur if the motivation to perform the behaviour outweighs the potential risk of punishment. Trainers and owners must be very aware of this effect, if they are training any horse that is to be handled by more people than just the owner or trainer.
(Incidentally, this is why, if I have to punish a behaviour, I much prefer to do it in a way that, where possible, the horse perceives it is a direct consequence of his action rather than coming from me personally. So nibbling leads e.g. to an uncomfortable feeling in the horse's mouth, or a lunge-to-bite meets a hard knee or elbow.)
This is explained very clearly by Emma Lethbridge in her excellent book Knowing Your Horse: A Guide to Equine Learning, Training and Behaviour.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Knowing-Your-Horse-Learning-Behaviour/dp/1405191643
The book has a whole chapter on punishment, including useful info on its potential side effects and problems, and another whole chapter on how to deal with unwanted behaviours without using punishment.
Here's what she wrote about selective weakening:
It is possible for horses to selectively suppress the punished behaviour until punishment is less likely, either when the punishing handler is no longer present or when the horse believes he is less likely to be punished for the behaviour. Often, when one person delivers punishment to the horse consistently, the horse will learn to suppress the punished behaviour around that person. However, the behaviour is likely to reoccur with other handlers when punishment is less likely. A good example of this is the horse that is pushy with certain people who do not punish the barging behaviour, but perfectly behaved with those who do punish the same behaviour. This effect is especially likely to occur if the motivation to perform the behaviour outweighs the potential risk of punishment. Trainers and owners must be very aware of this effect, if they are training any horse that is to be handled by more people than just the owner or trainer.
(Incidentally, this is why, if I have to punish a behaviour, I much prefer to do it in a way that, where possible, the horse perceives it is a direct consequence of his action rather than coming from me personally. So nibbling leads e.g. to an uncomfortable feeling in the horse's mouth, or a lunge-to-bite meets a hard knee or elbow.)
doriangrey
Well-Known Member
Doesn't, for instance, a foal learn by punishment early on? How much does a foal know by instinct, are they born knowing that ears back from another horse is a warning for example. I've seen my foals playing a bit rough with the dam and they get the ears back and then when that doesn't work maybe a sharp nip. After a couple of times they then equate the ears back with a nip and that suffices. Later on when they were playing with the stallion (and he was a lot more tolerant than the dam!) the lesson had been learned - isn't that therefore suppressed behaviour? Obviously we can't put our ears back, but I think horses are very good at reading our intentions. How do they work out that punishment is less likely, how do they know that another person handling them won't dole out the same punishment?
fburton
Well-Known Member
I agree, although it is possible to make it difficult for them by acting unpredictably. However, the more consistent the handler is, the easier it is for the horse to learn what's wanted, even if he/she is more punitive than necessary. As for foals, punishment is indeed a natural part of how they learn (as is reward, although some people will argue it isn't). Because foals are a 'blank slate', it's an ideal opportunity for us to teach them the ground rules of behaviour around people, and for them to learn the human equivalents of 'ears back'.
Just experience? Sometimes a lesson is generalized to all people; sometimes the horse learns one person will react differently to its actions compared to another.
Nudibranch
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone on here beats the cr8p out of their horse; it's not advocating animal abuse to say that a quick smack is sometimes necessary. Some people worry about "trust". Horses don't hold grudges and a quick, correctly timed smack is effective and understood. My one-foal-yard spoilt youngster is a complex fellow. He is bold, confident to the point of being a nuisance sometimes yet is extremely intelligent and trainable. He's learning the manners he missed out on before. He has a great "bond" with me and trusts me completely in any new situation. He'll walk though, over, under or past anything I ask. He will follow me like a lamb and literally gallops flat out when called. However on the odd occasion he decides that I might make a good companion for coltish rearing or biting games he gets one tap with the whip and that's it. When he goes to try the same with his field mates they similarly tell him where to go. That's what they understand and it works. He doesn't hate me for it!
fattylumpkin
Well-Known Member
Nobody is worried about abuse and I'm not worried about how smacking will effect my 'bond' with the horse either, I know a smack will do pretty much nothing, which has been my feeling all along - smacking doesn't work on all horses, for varying reasons.
I think we should all agree it's not necessarily a case of smack vs. no-smack so much as whether the owner is taking the time and responsibility to instill good manners and discipline in the horse. There are too many people from BOTH the smack/no-smack camps who don't bother to do that and baby the horse instead, which is the real problem.
and I'm not worried about how smacking will effect my 'bond' with the horse either, I know a smack will do pretty much nothing, which has been my feeling all along - smacking doesn't work on all horses, for varying reasons.I think we should all agree it's not necessarily a case of smack vs. no-smack so much as whether the owner is taking the time and responsibility to instill good manners and discipline in the horse. There are too many people from BOTH the smack/no-smack camps who don't bother to do that and baby the horse instead, which is the real problem.
surreygirl17
Well-Known Member
so nice to hear that Alice and I'm not the only one!. I've been so angry with mine in the past because she's been so horrible. I always feel guilty after but she's to big to be allowed to get away with dangerous behaviour.
_HP_
Well-Known Member
My cob bit me a while back.....first time in 15 years. I was putting cream on his sore sheath (sweet itch). I must have got a sore bit and he swung round and bit my thigh...it was agony and left a HUGE lump and bruise. As soon as he did it he knew he shouldn't have and ran off a few feet away from me while I swore and shouted that I was going to effing kill him!!! and then as I calmed down he edged back over to me and we carried on. But rest assured, had he not moved away from me in that moment, I probably would have laid into him like a loony!! Of course, he would barely have felt a thing as he is built like a brick poo house but it would have shocked him, just like it shocked me that he bit me.
Alyth
Well-Known Member
I would suggest you think about how you would feel if you had been in his position.....and just because he is 'well buildt' doesn't mean he doesn't have nerve endings in his skin - he can still feel a fly landing on him....I am quite honestly saddened by your attitude...
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Not commenting on any particular post, I'm pondering on how easy it can be to build fear-aggression and aggravate a situation, rather than fix it. For example, if we're in a position where we regularly give our horse "a slap" or any other punishment then arguably it isn't an effective deterrent. Also how easy it is for us, with our human perceptions, to misunderstand the reasons why a horse might feel it needs to confront us.
Maybe sometimes words like bolshy, dominant, aggressive, bossy etc are appropriate (I'm not saying they are), but I'm sure they are often used as justification, if we ascribe some calculated thinking to a horse it's easier to believe we are right to punish.
Again - not having some sort of go at anyone here, it's obvious that all posters feel they are acting correctly in the best interests of themselves and their horses.
Maybe sometimes words like bolshy, dominant, aggressive, bossy etc are appropriate (I'm not saying they are), but I'm sure they are often used as justification, if we ascribe some calculated thinking to a horse it's easier to believe we are right to punish.
Again - not having some sort of go at anyone here, it's obvious that all posters feel they are acting correctly in the best interests of themselves and their horses.
Ibblebibble
Well-Known Member
the fly analogy always seems rather silly to me, are you trying to say that because a horse can feel a fly on them it is so sensitive that a slap will really hurt/harm them?? surely if that were so , just the action of putting a saddle on them would send them crazy! all those nerve endings reacting to the saddle? and how about when they groom each other in the field, that's some pretty rough teeth work going on but do they collapse on the floor in agony or shock?, no they positively enjoy it! We can also feel a fly landing on us, only difference we have is that we can't twitch our skin to get rid of it.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
I agree with your comments but I think it must be remembered that many horses are not fortunate enough to be bred and raised by knowledgeable people. The correct early learning and handling from birth to and through the breaking process is what makes or ruins a horse. When you buy a mature horse in there is no way of knowing if the horse has had an ideal upbringing and is in possession of polite manners.
Owners also have differing expectations and ideas as to what manners actually are. I do not ask my horses to step back off the door or in a gateway, they are trained to do it as soon as I approach the door, but this most basic of good manners is not put into so many horses. We have been trying a few horses recently and the number of vendors I have watched struggling in the doorways astounded me. The same applies to horses that do not automatically move sideways in the stable or tied up outside.
A rude horse is a dangerous horse. What do you actually mean by 'to misunderstand the reasons why a horse might feel it needs to confront us' ?
The rude mare i mentioned in my previous post is now mannerly and safe. She now understands that using her shoulders to barge people out of the way is not acceptable, what a shame she was ever allowed to do it in the first place. She now accepts that it is me that goes through the door/gate first, something she should have been taught aged 8/10 months. She was dominant purely because she had been allowed to be dominant and knew nothing else. It has been interesting watching her attitude change and she certainly has not been beaten into submission, but there have been occasions when a swift and hard reprimand was necessary both for her and my safety. I am a firm believer in the old fashioned comment of if it is necessary to hit a horse you must do it once and mean it.
The changes have been so great that I have been able to handle and ride her just once or twice a week throughout this summer whilst I have been very ill. Something that would have not been possible this time last year, she would have flattened me. She is not a 'bad' horse, just one of the many not raised correctly.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
When I typed that I didn't have well brought up horses in mind. I think you need to deal with the horse in front of you, and have had the "pleasure" of doing that with many horses that had a great deal lacking in their upbringing.
Horses don't confront us in a way that we think of as aggressive just to piss us off. They don't do it out of any human motivation, so I think words like "disrespectful" or banging on about a horse having a lack of respect are misleading. It's a horse. Normal horses - the sort that we all deal with even if we deal with some that are tricky/rescues/entires etc - attack us because they are bothered by something, maybe just some experience in previous life that has led them to believe they need to warn us off and keep us at a distance. For example, I had a horse from the Blue Cross who was extremely aggressive in the stable, he would lunge with teeth and front hooves when the door opened and he meant it. It was fear aggression, he wasn't a nasty horse, there aren't many horses born "nasty". I knew that he'd had a history of increasing periods of confinement, eventually to 24/7 and being cross tied. I'm sure that at some point in all of that he started lunging towards freedom when the door opened and people responded with aggression, maybe in the form of shouting, hitting or blue pipe, and it all escalated out of control. (I'm not going to witter on about how I dealt with it, but I never hit him. No point in me making any point about how cleverly I sorted things out because we're all strangers, anyone could be making up porkies anyway).
I'll admit I've learned a huge amount in the past 15 years or so that, while it hasn't turned me into an enthusiastic +R advocate, it did stop me responding to things like bites with a "slap". Which I was taught to do right from a little 'un playing with shetties. I think Fburton touched on this earlier - a lot of people re-direct the behaviour rather than punishing it. It takes a bit of timing and practise, like anything else with horses, and nobody's perfect... but it works. For me one big advantage with re-directing behaviour is that I don't inadvertently punish a movement that wasn't intended to be aggressive. Which is why I asked someone earlier if they actually knew their youngster intended to bite them. Sometimes all a horse was intending was to investigate you, or maybe even offer a friendly grooming nibble as a response to you grooming or inadvertently scratching an itchy bit of them.
You know, I don't care at all how others deal with their horses, again and again I say - there's more than one way to deal effectively with horses. So the people who are pretty much indulging in "virtual" strutting about on this thread making out that because they deal with xyz category of horse they have superior handling skills and are dealing with the sort of horses others have never come across... that they are automatically right... that they know what others are suggesting won't work, and their way is the only way - are wrong.
_HP_
Well-Known Member
I would suggest you lose the ' holier than thou' attitude
Ok...so perhaps 'laid into him like a looney' wasn't the best way to put it but he would have got a slap and yessss, he would have felt it and so what. That's exactly what a fieldmate would have done but it would have hurt a whole lot more. As it was, he know's me so well, he moved away while I grimaced and cursed and then gently came over to grovel an apology...as it were
I'm quite honestly saddened by those with no sense of humour and a stick up their botties
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
I would suggest you lose the ' holier than thou' attitude
Ok...so perhaps 'laid into him like a looney' wasn't the best way to put it but he would have got a slap and yessss, he would have felt it and so what. That's exactly what a fieldmate would have done but it would have hurt a whole lot more. As it was, he know's me so well, he moved away while I grimaced and cursed and then gently came over to grovel an apology...as it were
I'm quite honestly saddened by those with no sense of humour and a stick up their botties
To be fair though, horses tend to be much more aware of what other horses are doing around them, they notice the warning signs, and it's more likely that he wouldn't have ended up biting another horse. Just an oblivious human who was fixed on attacking his private places. Humans are so slow on the uptake...
Poor horse had probably been saying quite clearly that he was thinking of biting because it hurt, he meant it, he would, honestly, oh, if you won't listen... "CHOMP!".
This is why I think we probably need to avoid comparing what we do to what horses do to each other.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I agree.
I've been wanting to bring up a point made in the quote from Emma Lethbridge's book fburton put up. Half of my keyboard has died so having to use desk top keyboard so was put off mentioning it. lol
I'll copy it again...
"It is possible for horses to selectively suppress the punished behaviour until punishment is less likely, either when the punishing handler is no longer present or when the horse believes he is less likely to be punished for the behaviour. Often, when one person delivers punishment to the horse consistently, the horse will learn to suppress the punished behaviour around that person. However, the behaviour is likely to reoccur with other handlers when punishment is less likely. A good example of this is the horse that is pushy with certain people who do not punish the barging behaviour, but perfectly behaved with those who do punish the same behaviour. This effect is especially likely to occur if the motivation to perform the behaviour outweighs the potential risk of punishment. Trainers and owners must be very aware of this effect, if they are training any horse that is to be handled by more people than just the owner or trainer."
I found this pulled together something I was wondering about the horses that 'behaved' with some handlers but not others.
Perhaps the punishing is only suppressing the behaviour but the mind set/fear/anxiety is still there so is expressed when a less punitive handler is present?
Ok the hitting or whatever may work but is it actually sorting out/helping a problem the horse might have and is the horses problem just festering away? Does that really make one handler 'better'? This obviously applies equally to the handler that doesn't hit but also does nothing re training or management to help the horse learn.
To go back to Tinypony's post, I also agree just assuming horses have no respect or whatever doesn't really get us anywhere except its alright even desirable to hit them.
ps. cross posted.
I so agree. I think we so often miss the subtle signals and don't respond to/heed them.
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