question for vets please or anyone else who may know. (praziquantal)

[paddy555]

with the demise of equitape it is impossible to buy praz off the shelf. We are told vets can supply it yet I haven't found anyone yet who has been successful.

Without praz on it's own we are having to worm horses with very low worm counts with an unnecessary wormer

Any vets, does your surgery supply praz in a cost effective form (oral) that horse owners can use? If so which product is it please.

If any owners have been successful in getting praz how did you do it?

thanks

 

[HashRouge]

Great post paddy, it's like some sort of mythical unicorn that I've heard of but never seen!

 

[soloequestrian]

Viovet - 'Noropraz'

 

[Gamebird]

BOVA manufacture it - for legal reasons they can only sell to vets. However it's perfectly easy to get hold of - the vets just order it from BOVA. We keep it in for precisely the reasons above. If treating only for tapeworm then it's the only drug you should be using.

 

[HashRouge]

BOVA manufacture it - for legal reasons they can only sell to vets. However it's perfectly easy to get hold of - the vets just order it from BOVA. We keep it in for precisely the reasons above. If treating only for tapeworm then it's the only drug you should be using.

I know that's the theory, my vet just didn't seem to know what I was talking about!

 

[Gamebird]

I know that's the theory, my vet just didn't seem to know what I was talking about!

Can't help you there I'm afraid! Maybe email them a step by step guide? I'd be surprised if any equine vets don't already have an account with BOVA as they make so many useful drugs. However if they don't they can set an account up in minutes.

 

[SEL]

Mine wouldn't prescribe it when I had tapeworm only positive horses.

 

[fidleyspromise]

I did manage to get it from the vet year before last as one of my horses had positive tapeworm results.
I phoned them to discuss my results from Westgate and the Equisal test and got it from them no problem. It was a worming syringe in a white tube if I remember correctly.

 

[Fieldlife]

Can you double dose strongid P instead to do tapeworm?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Can you double dose strongid P instead to do tapeworm?

Yes.

Also praziquantel is included along with ivermectin in Equimax, which does not have the reported bad side effects that Equest Pramox (moxidectin + praziquantel) does.

It is baffling to me as to why praziquantel has been discontinued as a standalone drug for retail purchase without going through a vet, when it's still readily available in combination with other products.

 

[TheBigPony]

I just rang my vets and asked them if they could get the wormer for me and they did.

Did you speak to an actual vet? Ask them to look into it.

 

[ycbm]

Viovet - 'Noropraz'

Is noromectin and praziquantel combined.

You would still be using a chemical that the horse does not need. It makes no sense at all and is against all the supposed rules of worming.

 

[paddy555]

Mine wouldn't prescribe it when I had tapeworm only positive horses.

https://horsetrust.org.uk/wp-conten...019_Equine_Worming_Roundtable-Equisal-Web.pdf

whilst researching I found the above article which was interesting about pyrantal. The rest of the article is well worth a read as well. Lovely pics.

To save people going through pages this is a quote from it.


Treatment should only be adminis- tered to adult horses in response to positive serum or salivary antibody testing. Resist- ance has not yet been detected to either of the products licensed for the treatment of tape- worms in horses: pyrantel and praziquantel.
The use of pyrantel should be avoided where treatment is being targeted against tapeworms specifically, to reduce unnecessary exposure of strongyles to this drug. Prazi- quantel is preferred in such circumstances. Where the use of moxidectin is required con- currently, a combined product is available. However, when possible the use of moxidectin should be avoided and combined praziquantel and ivermectin products would be preferred. The licensed praziquantel-only product has recently been withdrawn in the UK; however, praziquantel paste is available in the UK via veterinary surgeons as a ‘special’ formulation.

 

[paddy555]

Yes.



It is baffling to me as to why praziquantel has been discontinued as a standalone drug for retail purchase without going through a vet, when it's still readily available in combination with other products.

it amazes me that we are apparently quite capable of giving pramox which seems to have some side effects yet praz has to come from a vet.

Everything seems to be being thrown at worm counts and saliva tests and avoiding resistance and then they remove the one product (equitape) that enables us to deal with positives properly.

I have 8 equisals going in tomorrow. I have no doubt some will need worming and I will try the vet. I wonder if the answer will be it will be very expensive as they will have to buy in a whole box and I will only want a couple or so.

I can see many wouldn't bother. Just give equimax or similar. Not worth the hassle of involving the vet.

 

[Gamebird]

it amazes me that we are apparently quite capable of giving pramox which seems to have some side effects yet praz has to come from a vet.

Everything seems to be being thrown at worm counts and saliva tests and avoiding resistance and then they remove the one product (equitape) that enables us to deal with positives properly.

I have 8 equisals going in tomorrow. I have no doubt some will need worming and I will try the vet. I wonder if the answer will be it will be very expensive as they will have to buy in a whole box and I will only want a couple or so.

I can see many wouldn't bother. Just give equimax or similar. Not worth the hassle of involving the vet.

You order it per syringe from BOVA, not per box, so it is perfectly possible for them to order any specific number from 1 to 101.

The reason it has to come from a vet is not down to the drug in it, it's because it is being manufactured as a 'special' and as such it is unlicensed. It is a specific legal category that vets can use under the prescribing cascade when no licensed formulation of the drug exists. However because of the legal category and being unlicensed it can't be ordered by anyone other than a vet. BOVA stepped in to produce it as a special formulation when Equitape went off the market specifically because the importance of praziquantel being available as a single drug and its role in preventing resistance was recognised.

About Special Formulations - BOVA

Sadly I fear your last point is valid. We struggle massively to even get people to test for tapeworm, let alone seek out the correct wormer.

 

[paddy555]

You order it per syringe from BOVA, not per box, so it is perfectly possible for them to order any specific number from 1 to 101.

The reason it has to come from a vet is not down to the drug in it, it's because it is being manufactured as a 'special' and as such it is unlicensed. It is a specific legal category that vets can use under the prescribing cascade when no licensed formulation of the drug exists. However because of the legal category and being unlicensed it can't be ordered by anyone other than a vet. BOVA stepped in to produce it as a special formulation when Equitape went off the market specifically because the importance of praziquantel being available as a single drug and its role in preventing resistance was recognised.

About Special Formulations - BOVA

Sadly I fear your last point is valid. We struggle massively to even get people to test for tapeworm, let alone seek out the correct wormer.

thanks for that explanation. At least we now know why and what direction to point the vet in.
I understand now about BOVA specials.

However I don't get why zoetis or boehringer who already use praz in their products and presumably have a license to produce/sell praz don't just make a single praz product.
It is not in the horse's interests to have a dual wormer to be able to have praz so is the only reason is money ie they can sell a dual product for more? sorry if this sounds sceptical if there is a good scientific reason but I can't see one ATM.

 

[HashRouge]

it amazes me that we are apparently quite capable of giving pramox which seems to have some side effects yet praz has to come from a vet.

Everything seems to be being thrown at worm counts and saliva tests and avoiding resistance and then they remove the one product (equitape) that enables us to deal with positives properly.

I have 8 equisals going in tomorrow. I have no doubt some will need worming and I will try the vet. I wonder if the answer will be it will be very expensive as they will have to buy in a whole box and I will only want a couple or so.

I can see many wouldn't bother. Just give equimax or similar. Not worth the hassle of involving the vet.

I'm the same, just did my tests this evening and put them in the post ready for first post tomorrow morning. If either of them does need treating I will have another go at getting praziquantel from my vet. Last year my gelding had a positive tapeworm test, so I wouldn't be completely surprised if at least one of them needs worming.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

I assume the reason they stopped producing it is because people weren’t buying it often enough to make it profitable/worth producing as a standalone product. As gamebird says, it’s perfectly possible to get it from BOVA but it is more expensive than a “standard” wormer as it’s being produced specially

 

[quizzie]

thanks for that explanation. At least we now know why and what direction to point the vet in.
I understand now about BOVA specials.

However I don't get why zoetis or boehringer who already use praz in their products and presumably have a license to produce/sell praz don't just make a single praz product.
It is not in the horse's interests to have a dual wormer to be able to have praz so is the only reason is money ie they can sell a dual product for more? sorry if this sounds sceptical if there is a good scientific reason but I can't see one ATM.

Because those products have a licence as a combined product, each individual drug within the combination does not have its own individual licence.
Praziquantal on its own would need its own specific licence.

 

[Fruitcake]

Because those products have a licence as a combined product, each individual drug within the combination does not have its own individual licence.
Praziquantal on its own would need its own specific licence.

Why have the licencing rules changed though? Why does it now need to be a 'special formation'? Surely, up until a couple of years ago, prazinquantal,-only products were licenced (as Equitape existed and was readily available). It just seems to go against all current worming advice to worm a horse with a dual wormer or a double dose of pyrantel when it's not needed. I genuinely don't understand the thinking.

 

[criso]

Because those products have a licence as a combined product, each individual drug within the combination does not have its own individual licence.
Praziquantal on its own would need its own specific licence.

But presumably Zoetis had this licence when they manufactured Equitape which was Praziquantel only. They chose to discontinue.

 

[quizzie]

Why have the licencing rules changed though? Why does it now need to be a 'special formation'? Surely, up until a couple of years ago, prazinquantal,-only products were licenced (as Equitape existed and was readily available). It just seems to go against all current worming advice to worm a horse with a dual wormer or a double dose of pyrantel when it's not needed. I genuinely don't understand the thinking.

But presumably Zoetis had this licence when they manufactured Equitape which was Praziquantel only. They chose to discontinue.

Because it was Equitape which had a licence ( including its fillers/binding agents).....not the generic drug praziquantal.

Licensing rules, and prescribing under the cascade system, are pretty tightly controlled.
Vets are not permitted to prescribe generic drugs when a licensed version is available.

 

[Fruitcake]

Because it was Equitape which had a licence ( including its fillers/binding agents).....not the generic drug praziquantal

So why is the new BOVA version only available through vets? Is it manufactured under a different licencing category and if so, why if it's the same drug? Surely different fillers wouldn't be enough to cause this.

 

[paddy555]

it's interesting seeing a level of frustration from people who are simply trying to get it right and use the correct product.

 

[paddy555]

So why is the new BOVA version only available through vets? Is it manufactured under a different licencing category and if so, why if it's the same drug? Surely different fillers wouldn't be enough to cause this.

if you read the link Gamebird posted post 15 (I had to copy and paste to get it to open) then I can understand why about BOVA. It's just the rest that frustrates me.

 

[Fruitcake]

Just read info on special formulations on BOVA's website.
So am I correct that as there is now no licenced prazinquantal-only product (after the discontinuation of Equitape), vets are able to prescribe BOVA's (unlicensed?) product under the cascade? Should I also assume then that, while there is no other prazinquantal product available, its more profitable for BOVA to just continue under this system, rather than go down the route of paying to licence their product?

 

[quizzie]

So why is the new BOVA version only available through vets? Is it manufactured under a different licencing category and if so, why if it's the same drug? Surely different fillers wouldn't be enough to cause this.

Because it does not have a general licence, and is being manufactured under special licence, and only vets are legally allowed to process these. And yes, the other components can change how a drug acts/is absorbed etc.

Just read info on special formulations on BOVA's website.
So am I correct that as there is now no licenced prazinquantal-only product (after the discontinuation of Equitape), vets are able to prescribe BOVA's (unlicensed?) product under the cascade? Should I also assume then that, while there is no other prazinquantal product available, its more profitable for BOVA to just continue under this system, rather than go down the route of paying to licence their product?

It is massively expensive to do the full licensing on any new product...that is why availability of some drugs is so limited in the veterinary market....the numbers sold are just not big enough.

 

[paddy555]

Because it does not have a general licence, and is being manufactured under special licence, and only vets are legally allowed to process these. And yes, the other components can change how a drug acts/is absorbed etc.



It is massively expensive to do the full licensing on any new product...that is why availability of some drugs is so limited in the veterinary market....the numbers sold are just not big enough.

I do understand it all now so thanks to those who have made it clear. However there will never be a way forward to solve this problem because of money. So the zealous ones will go to their vet and pay probably a lot more to do the job correctly and the rest will use a combined wormer.

One could equisal test first in the autumn and forget an FEC for any horse that needs praz as in most cases (unless you go to the vet) it will get a combined wormer anyway.

 

[criso]

Because it was Equitape which had a licence ( including its fillers/binding agents).....not the generic drug praziquantal.

Licensing rules, and prescribing under the cascade system, are pretty tightly controlled.
Vets are not permitted to prescribe generic drugs when a licensed version is available.

But Zoetis produced/marketed Equitape which had the licence which was discontinued.

I understand that now it's been discontinued, someone has to start the licensing process again and that is very expensive but we're only in this position because they stopped.

 

[HashRouge]

I do understand it all now so thanks to those who have made it clear. However there will never be a way forward to solve this problem because of money. So the zealous ones will go to their vet and pay probably a lot more to do the job correctly and the rest will use a combined wormer.

One could equisal test first in the autumn and forget an FEC for any horse that needs praz as in most cases (unless you go to the vet) it will get a combined wormer anyway.

One of the reasons I find Pramox useful is that if I time it right I can worm anything that needs doing for tapeworm AND do encysted red worm at the same time. Then I just use Equest for anything that doesn't need worming for tape.