Quivering/flapping lower lip - meaning

[Goldenstar]

H never flaps his lip when working he does it out hunting when he's standing watching he's does not come across as apprehensive he loves hunting but he watches intently and flaps his lip .
In the stable / field he does it when he watches us doing things like rugging up for turnout or when he's tacked up waiting to come out his stable .
My groom also thinks he's learning to use it to get attention in the stable as we tend to go and give him a stroke when we see it ,he's got a huge floppy lip and it looks cute .
I Would say it likely a horse that does it ridden is showing stress but have know one mare where it was defiantly when she was through and most rhymic and in the grove with you she gently flapped her lip in rhythm .

 

[Merrymoles]

Mine does it quite extensively when he's stressed or wound up, so much so that his stable name reflects it, so I have voted stressed.

However, he also does it when presented with something new when he is having a good think about it but isn't showing any other sign of stress. For example, I re-introduced polework into his lunging last week and he is not the most careful or brave but he continued to be forward-going, ears pricked and moving nicely while working out what to do with his legs and having a good bottom lip flap. I repeated the same exercise two nights later and there was no flapping as by then he appeared to have "got his head round it".

He is a horse who needs time to consider things, despite being a very forward going sort, and the flapping gives me warning that his brain is overloading with whatever I have asked him to do and we therefore take it back a step or two or find some other way to make it easier for him to compute. This applies just as much out hacking as schooling. A flapping lip can mean "what the hell is that over there???" or "ooo my mate is leaving me". I am resigned to the fact that the lip flapping is his way of telling me he is not comfortable with something.

Changing bit or level of contact makes no difference whatsoever, it's completely how he feels about a situation.

ETA - would be interested to hear your views WT and what you have read - please PM me if you'd rather not comment on the thread itself.

 

[MrsNorris]

My cob does it when ridden bitless, but not when bitted. I always thought it was because he was even more relaxed without a bit (he seems totally laid back either way) but now I'm not so sure! He does it in all the types of bitless bridle which I've tried him in, but he goes very well in them and doesn't seem at all concerned.

 

[criso]

I always used to think it was anxiety or excitement but I believe it can be pain related also.

I think it can be linked, anxiety about pain or it might not be actual pain but remembered or expected pain. And then can it be left as a habit when the reason it started has gone.

In Goldenstar's hunting example, a horse that loves hunting could be anxious to get going so it's not anxiety in a bad way but anticipation.


In my horse that does it, he's a worrier and it's a very low level indicator. He's not really stressed or upset ... yet ... but there's something he's not 100% sure of and it could go either way. He did it yesterday watching some walkers on the footpath when I'd been lunging. They weren't a major threat in his eyes but something to be kept an eye on. It was combined with an a very alert stance and looks very different to the sort of droopy lipped, relaxed behaviour that some people have described when grooming.

 

[Cobbytype]

The stallion in the competition yard, where my horse was liveried for a time, used to do it when my horse went to say hello to him. It was definitely excitement that made his lips quiver; he led quite a solitary life at home due to his temperament and value, so loved his little play time with my boy and the two of them got along really well.

My first horse used to do it when schooled - he looked like he was muttering under his breath, and as he hated schooling, I guess that's probably what he was doing. A few changes of bit and the dentist made no difference, so we concluded it was just his way of 'cussing'.

 

[Pippity]

I've dealt with horses that let the lower lip droop when they're thoroughly relaxed, but that's different to the 'flappy' thing. My current share horse does the flappy lower lip when he's a little worried about something and would appreciate a bit of reassurance. (A big hug usually does it. He's a soppy thing!)

 

[Pigeon]

Yes one of ours has a droopy lip, it doesn't seem to be affected by his mood, so I think he just has no control over it, though it does give him a relaxed appearance.

The other would wiggle his nose around like a tapir when excited.

 

[applecart14]

My horse flaps his bottom lip onto his lap strap to make his curb chain rattle when he has his pelham on. He thinks the noise is interesting and likes to announce to everyone that he hates his curb chain being on, even though its fairly loose at the time!

 

[Dry Rot]

One of my yard helpers used to tickle a yearling on the chest and he'd go into ecstacies and push his neck out skywards. I am pretty sure he would also 'lip quiver' at the same time!

 

[Jericho]

My mare did it when mildly anxious or apprehensive, both ridden and not. If she was out grazing and saw something in the distance that worries her it starts or if she is scared of something out hacking it goes or if she is jumping or schooling quite hard. Doesn't do when under extreme stress or when she is at rest

 

[Akkalia1]

This is very interesting to me as I tried a horse for sale at the weekend whose bottom lip constantly flaps quite vigorously while being ridden. This was very much a project mare who has many issues to consider and I now am wondering if the lip thing was an indicator of pain/stress. I hadn't considered that to be a signal of anything, just a funny habit, but having read this I suspect it could be a sign of a deep-seated problem.

 

[Wagtail]

I think it's definitely when a horse is worried or apprehensive about something. Although it doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem such as pain, but with some horses just having a more demanding rider on board is enough to set it off. Sometimes, as in the stopping whilst hunting example, or gazing at things in the distance, it may also be nervous anticipation. I think the grooming examples given are a different thing entirely to what I was meaning in the poll. I am referring to a horse being worked. I know many horses that lip quiver when being scratched in their sweet spots or have a droopy lower lip when dosing. But this is different to what I was referring to.

 

[Hexx]

I used to ride a horse who's whole bottom jaw used to flap and his teeth clicked together. This only happened when he was working in an outline, on a relaxed rein, with a flowing gait - his ears would flop to either side and his jaw relax and the teeth would click. He would be so soft and relaxed, it was like riding a floating horse - it was the way you knew that he was working beautifully.

 

[Wagtail]

I used to ride a horse who's whole bottom jaw used to flap and his teeth clicked together. This only happened when he was working in an outline, on a relaxed rein, with a flowing gait - his ears would flop to either side and his jaw relax and the teeth would click. He would be so soft and relaxed, it was like riding a floating horse - it was the way you knew that he was working beautifully.

Yes, that's a relaxed jaw. What we all strive to achieve. But the bottom lip can flap with a fixed jaw, like if you clench your teeth together then quiver your chin and bottom lip. That is what I am meaning.

 

[MargotC]

I would love to see a video of a horse doing it during working, actually. I think it would be useful.

 

[Wagtail]

I would love to see a video of a horse doing it during working, actually. I think it would be useful.

I'll have to see if I have any. Probably won't have one that is clear enough as shot from too far away, but will look.

 

[MargotC]

Thanks! If you don't, perhaps someone else on the forum has one? In fact examples of all the kinds of lip flapping mentioned in the thread would be fun to see next to each other. It sounds similar but I suspect there are subtle differences and I for one would love to be able to tell them apart, unless the only real way to tell them apart is context eg. a horse in pain/a horse being scratched/a horse being asked to do something unfamiliar.

ETA. A question for those with horses in pain who exhibit this behaviour. How much pain (estimated) is the horse in? Does it happen with low-key pain or with more severe, constant pain?

 

[marotelle]

Perhaps you could get hold of Valegro's kur in last year's Aachen's championship;for me it was the most telling one.
He always performed with a happy Outlook, well infront of the leg;on that last kur ,although correct, he lacked that special sparkle...And yes through out he had a quivering/flapping lower lip.

 

[Enfys]

I would love to see a video of a horse doing it during working, actually. I think it would be useful.

I found this on you tube. This is my mare, taken 6 years ago when she was on the show circuit in Florida, you can clearly see her lip snapping, she still does this, many pasos do when they are gaiting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOFpViPg3pU

 

[Cobbytype]

I found this on you tube. This is my mare, taken 6 years ago when she was on the show circuit in Florida, you can clearly see her lip snapping, she still does this, many pasos do when they are gaiting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOFpViPg3pU

Oh bless her, it looks like she's counting her little strides.

 

[Enfys]

Oh bless her, it looks like she's counting her little strides.

She is still exactly like that 6 years on, they are little strides, she is only 13.1h on tiptoes

She is getting tired in that video clip, I can tell, her back legs are moving more slowly.

Legs and lips snapping faster in this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7UOFDSxqo0

 

[Wagtail]

I found this on you tube. This is my mare, taken 6 years ago when she was on the show circuit in Florida, you can clearly see her lip snapping, she still does this, many pasos do when they are gaiting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOFpViPg3pU

Yes, that's the kind of thing I mean. Looking at this video, she looks more as though she is really concentrating, or anxious to please/get it right.

 

[Bojingles]

My cob does it - I'll get a clip of it. She does it in more than situation. The main one is when she's slightly worried, eg a new hacking route or a new rider, or if she she's something a bit scary. She also does it when she's concentrating in the school. I don't worry about it to be honest as she so clearly loves her work. She has other little quirks as well

 

[DressageCob]

I don't have any videos but this photo shows what I mean. Relaxed jaw, little concentration face, happy pony

 

[chahala]

My endurance arab who was ridden bitless used to do this competing. It did not so much flap as move around like a Jim Henson puppet giving a running commentary. I have voted that he was concentrating but could equally say he was a bit stressed ( he liked to be in front )or perhaps excited and could be connected to ADRENELIN ( ?) but I do not think he was in pain. If I ever rode him in a bit the tongue would come out and roll around- he did not really like bits. . He would particularly do it if the course got a bit technical and he needed to concentrate on where he was putting his feet. He did not do it in a normal hacking situation.

 

[criso]

I was carrying my phone around camera at the ready today to try and film Tigger but of course there were no suspicious looking walkers on the footpath or incoming wildfowl on the pond which usually triggers it.

 

[fburton]

Can the lower lip flap if the facial muscles esp. around the muzzle are tensed? It seems a unlikely to me.

Can a horse be stressed and have relaxed facial muscles? Possibly, but I am a little doubtful.

Answer those two questions and you will know if a flapping lip and stress are compatible at least.

 

[Wagtail]

Can the lower lip flap if the facial muscles esp. around the muzzle are tensed? It seems a unlikely to me.

Can a horse be stressed and have relaxed facial muscles? Possibly, but I am a little doubtful.

Answer those two questions and you will know if a flapping lip and stress are compatible at least.

It is possible to clench you teeth/hold your face tense and quiver your lower lip/chin. I think you are mistaking the droopy flapping lip of a relaxed horse with what I am referring to. In my OP I am referring to a completely different type of lip quiver where the chin remains tight (and is firm as it is pointy). It is not droopy or relaxed at all. Often accompanied by other tension in the face.

 

[fburton]

It is possible to clench you teeth/hold your face tense and quiver your lower lip/chin. I think you are mistaking the droopy flapping lip of a relaxed horse with what I am referring to. In my OP I am referring to a completely different type of lip quiver where the chin remains tight (and is firm as it is pointy). It is not droopy or relaxed at all. Often accompanied by other tension in the face.

Fair enough! What I had in mind was different. Maybe that's why some people voted for "relaxed and happy".

It would be great if you (or someone) could find and post a video example.

 

[Wagtail]

Fair enough! What I had in mind was different. Maybe that's why some people voted for "relaxed and happy".

It would be great if you (or someone) could find and post a video example.

When I posted it I assumed everyone would know what I meant, but maybe it's much rarer than I thought. I guess in reality, I can only remember two horses doing it (both mares) in my lifetime with horses. Or at least I hadn't noticed it in others. But the droopy lip thing when a horse is relaxed is very common. I can't see it on any of my videos of the horse I am currently working with, but my videos are shot on a camera set up outside the arena, so at a fixed distance and they are not HD. I know she is doing it in one of the lunging videos but it is too grainy for people to see. If I get a chance when someone else is working her I will try to zoom in on her mouth.