sw123
Well-Known Member
Trying to think of TBs that really are racing sires/bred to race who are producing the goods out eventing....
Racing Stallions/TB's producing eventers
- Thread starter sw123
- Start date
Fergal_Sharky
Member
Bollin Terry (Terimon x Bollin Zola), is a race bred thoroughbred stallion who has also won some races. He is well connected as his half brother is Bollin Eric who won the St Ledger. Don't think he has anything out eventing yet, although he did cover some nice event mares when he was down south for the season last year or the year before. We have a two year old by him who we bred for eventing.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
Shahrastani! OK, so he's just starting out, but five year old I bred was fifth in only his second B90 section the other day and he's flat bred all the way (dam by Cadeaux Genereux).
I'm sure you'll be deluged with replies soon!
I'm sure you'll be deluged with replies soon!
alleycat
Well-Known Member
Ben Faerie! (alright, maybe you don't mean historically).
sallyf
Well-Known Member
High Tension comes into the same catagory as Bollin Terry his eldest stock out of event mares arnt quite old enough yet to compete.
youngsters including out of a 4* mare that are only 3 this time.
Also May I but he is by a now sadly retired racing stallion out of a TB mare that Showjumped to 1.45 level and whose siblings evented and showjumped with success.
Eldest foal is a single 5 year old that although out of a sprint bred TB mare is showing awesome jumping ability.
youngsters including out of a 4* mare that are only 3 this time.
Also May I but he is by a now sadly retired racing stallion out of a TB mare that Showjumped to 1.45 level and whose siblings evented and showjumped with success.
Eldest foal is a single 5 year old that although out of a sprint bred TB mare is showing awesome jumping ability.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
King's Composer
Cult Hero
Endoli
Cult Hero
Endoli
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Massarella's TBs at Louella? lots to choose from.
connie1288
Well-Known Member
My mare is by Double Trigger, as is Welton Double Cracker, not many event horses by him though.
S_N
Well-Known Member
Silver Patriarch covered a few Eventers and I know for sure he has a 2yo out of a mare that completed Burghley.
Bandmaster is another that springs to mind - though I am not a fan of his sire.
Roviris - poss more showing.
Not sure that I'd say that KC is racing bred, yes TB, but more sportshorse TB IMO.
Bandmaster is another that springs to mind - though I am not a fan of his sire.
Roviris - poss more showing.
Not sure that I'd say that KC is racing bred, yes TB, but more sportshorse TB IMO.
sywell
Well-Known Member
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
sallyf
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dont you think that is the OP's own choice to make though .
Im sure they are taking there own mares type into consideration when asking this question and i believe there choice is not WB.
This mare has already produced two very good young progeny by blood stallions why change the formula if that is what you like.
I for one dont like being told what i am allowed to breed just because you dont do the same.
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dont you think that is the OP's own choice to make though .
Im sure they are taking there own mares type into consideration when asking this question and i believe there choice is not WB.
This mare has already produced two very good young progeny by blood stallions why change the formula if that is what you like.
I for one dont like being told what i am allowed to breed just because you dont do the same.
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
hangb- I've never heard such rubbish in my life!!
To name just a few VERY uphill, good moving event horses that were full TB's bred for racing-
Courageous comet- see youtube video- can you get more uphill than that? he used to be a racehorse! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igeI-jiaLGk
Over to you- so uphill he was like a teapot!!
Ensign- up hill and good moving, scores early 40's dressage in three stars.
Rock Model- actually is old fashioned TB racehorse lines, and yes he looks uphill to me!
Sorry for the rant but it REALLY annoys me when people slate race TB's as there are lot of them that are more than capable, if not a hell of a lot better than the majority of warmblood sport horses when it comes to eventing, they are usually better!! How do you justify your comment?
To name just a few VERY uphill, good moving event horses that were full TB's bred for racing-
Courageous comet- see youtube video- can you get more uphill than that? he used to be a racehorse! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igeI-jiaLGk
Over to you- so uphill he was like a teapot!!
Ensign- up hill and good moving, scores early 40's dressage in three stars.
Rock Model- actually is old fashioned TB racehorse lines, and yes he looks uphill to me!
Sorry for the rant but it REALLY annoys me when people slate race TB's as there are lot of them that are more than capable, if not a hell of a lot better than the majority of warmblood sport horses when it comes to eventing, they are usually better!! How do you justify your comment?
air78
Well-Known Member
Well, you could look through Andrew Nicholsons back catalogue for racing bred eventers, as he's known for producing them with success.
I'm a total TB fan, and honestly think a fantastic TB out eventing is amazing..... so much speed and scope
To say that all TB's are down hill is like saying that all WB's are cart horses...... it's just not true.
I have a racing bred filly who I bought as a foal; she was placed at Bramham as a yearling in a potential 3 day event horse class last year above lots of old fashioned eventing bred yearlings and WB's..... I can only assume (and hope
) this is because she looks like she has the speed, scope and quality/ blood to make it round a 4* course.
I'm a total TB fan, and honestly think a fantastic TB out eventing is amazing..... so much speed and scope
To say that all TB's are down hill is like saying that all WB's are cart horses...... it's just not true.
I have a racing bred filly who I bought as a foal; she was placed at Bramham as a yearling in a potential 3 day event horse class last year above lots of old fashioned eventing bred yearlings and WB's..... I can only assume (and hope
zaraanne
Well-Known Member
Not a major opinion swayer but nonetheless it was still achieved by a flatrace TB stallion Codebreaker... Burglar/Vilmoray/Epigram. The sire of my mare (who evented at a lower level than should have due to the rider... me!!!!, than her ability), He was also the sire of Mary Kings former event gelding King Samual, who did well nationally, and competed internationally. I know not a major contribution but achieved.
S_N
Well-Known Member
Was Shaab not full TB?
S_N
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's very interesting! Would you care explain Lauries Crusader? OK, not an event sire, but a TB snapped up by the Germans for use in WB breeding and predominantly for dressage I believe.
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's very interesting! Would you care explain Lauries Crusader? OK, not an event sire, but a TB snapped up by the Germans for use in WB breeding and predominantly for dressage I believe.
teb
Well-Known Member
Shaab is full TB by Busted.
Very old way of thinking to say TB's are all built downhill. I have a Broken Hearted mare who has an incredible uphill front, her hind is a tad lacking - I am critical of my mares. So that's what I look to when I'm breeding. I also have a black-type Robellino mare I'm using in sporthorse breeding too.
I know this is about stallions, but didn't like the downhill build comment.
Strong Gale is the sire of Moon Fleet.
Terri
Very old way of thinking to say TB's are all built downhill. I have a Broken Hearted mare who has an incredible uphill front, her hind is a tad lacking - I am critical of my mares. So that's what I look to when I'm breeding. I also have a black-type Robellino mare I'm using in sporthorse breeding too.
I know this is about stallions, but didn't like the downhill build comment.
Strong Gale is the sire of Moon Fleet.
Terri
no_no_nanette
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just go have a look at a list of this year's Badminton competitors, hangb - the vast majority are TBs or ISH with TB dam or sire ..... really demolishes your argument, I'm afraid
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just go have a look at a list of this year's Badminton competitors, hangb - the vast majority are TBs or ISH with TB dam or sire ..... really demolishes your argument, I'm afraid
maestro
Well-Known Member
My stallion is 15/16th TB and no way is he downhill and when eventing was usually in the top 5 after dressage and indeed won an advanced by having the best dressage, so he definatly negates that argument.
ajf
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry I'm another to object to this!!!
We actually have a full TB and although he is slightly downhill, when working properley he gets amazing dressage marks. His problem at the moment in the dressage is the fact that he is so big and has such a big, poweful stride that he finds the arena small, but he is still young. So with a part-bred mare I really don't think a down hill horse will be the result.
His SJ is great (pic below at his 3rd novice where he went DC), with a really super back end, he can be a bit slow in front but tries his hardest.
XC is just brill, as he makes the times easily without actually putting any effort in. We are excited about him, yet he is the first horse we have backed, and we are so far at novice level.
Oh if SW123 is intrested he is by the late Sula Bula out of a point 2 point mare by roman warrior
TB stallions is old thinking for competition horse the racing industry produce quick growing horses that are downhill . You wont do well at dressage with a down hill horse. If you dont do a good dressage test to day you are struggeling at eventing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry I'm another to object to this!!!
We actually have a full TB and although he is slightly downhill, when working properley he gets amazing dressage marks. His problem at the moment in the dressage is the fact that he is so big and has such a big, poweful stride that he finds the arena small, but he is still young. So with a part-bred mare I really don't think a down hill horse will be the result.
His SJ is great (pic below at his 3rd novice where he went DC), with a really super back end, he can be a bit slow in front but tries his hardest.
XC is just brill, as he makes the times easily without actually putting any effort in. We are excited about him, yet he is the first horse we have backed, and we are so far at novice level.
Oh if SW123 is intrested he is by the late Sula Bula out of a point 2 point mare by roman warrior
magic104
Well-Known Member
Info found on BE website http://www.britisheventing.com/page.asp?section=0001000100020026
Sires 2008 7yo
MASTER IMP x 290 Full TB
CRUISING x 261 ISH
RICARDO Z x 201 WB
KINGS MASTER x 173 ISH
Primitive Rising x 157 TB
CULT HERO x 129 TB
O.B.O.S QUALITY x 120 WB
JUMBO x 114 ISH
LIMMERICK x 105 HOLS
HORNET ROSE x 101 SF
CARNUTE x 97 SF
BROADSTONE LANDMARK x 96 WB
FLEETWATER OPPOSITION x 94 Trak
FINES x 84
ACTINIUM x 83
JAVA TIGER x 80 TB
CHACOA x 78 Holst
RAMIRO B x 78 WB
NIDOR PLATIERE x 77 WB
BEAU DIAMOND x 75
ROSIRE x 73
PASTERNAK x 71 TB
CORLAND x 68 Holst
CHAMBER x 67 TB
MANSOMIEN x 67 TB
ELMSHORN x 66 Holst
DEVILS JUMP x 65 TB
OSCAR SCHINDLER x 65 TB
SYLVAN EXPRESS x 64 TB
ACCONDY x 63 TB
CAVALIER TWO FOR JOY x 62
ROSTJNTAN x 61
DONNERSONG x 60 WB
CONDIOS x 59 WB
PHIN PHIN x 59 WB
CAVALIER ROYALE x 58 WB
LOMBARDO x 58
ODERMUS x 57 WB
FARRINGTONS SPONDULCKS x 56
HIGH ROLLER x 54
Now all you need to know is how many of their offspring actually entered into Eventing & what sort of mare they were out of. It matters because if a sire has 200 offspring competiting but only 150 are collecting points surley the sire who has 150 offspring all collecting points is the better animal? At the moment the formual works, the use of TB's is getting the results. Some TB's are built downhill, but that has worked to make them the athletes that they are on the racetrack. If breeding uphill horses made them faster then that is what would have happened. The WB studbooks have used TB's through out their breeding programmes, so were they wrong, doesn't look like it!!
Sires 2008 7yo
MASTER IMP x 290 Full TB
CRUISING x 261 ISH
RICARDO Z x 201 WB
KINGS MASTER x 173 ISH
Primitive Rising x 157 TB
CULT HERO x 129 TB
O.B.O.S QUALITY x 120 WB
JUMBO x 114 ISH
LIMMERICK x 105 HOLS
HORNET ROSE x 101 SF
CARNUTE x 97 SF
BROADSTONE LANDMARK x 96 WB
FLEETWATER OPPOSITION x 94 Trak
FINES x 84
ACTINIUM x 83
JAVA TIGER x 80 TB
CHACOA x 78 Holst
RAMIRO B x 78 WB
NIDOR PLATIERE x 77 WB
BEAU DIAMOND x 75
ROSIRE x 73
PASTERNAK x 71 TB
CORLAND x 68 Holst
CHAMBER x 67 TB
MANSOMIEN x 67 TB
ELMSHORN x 66 Holst
DEVILS JUMP x 65 TB
OSCAR SCHINDLER x 65 TB
SYLVAN EXPRESS x 64 TB
ACCONDY x 63 TB
CAVALIER TWO FOR JOY x 62
ROSTJNTAN x 61
DONNERSONG x 60 WB
CONDIOS x 59 WB
PHIN PHIN x 59 WB
CAVALIER ROYALE x 58 WB
LOMBARDO x 58
ODERMUS x 57 WB
FARRINGTONS SPONDULCKS x 56
HIGH ROLLER x 54
Now all you need to know is how many of their offspring actually entered into Eventing & what sort of mare they were out of. It matters because if a sire has 200 offspring competiting but only 150 are collecting points surley the sire who has 150 offspring all collecting points is the better animal? At the moment the formual works, the use of TB's is getting the results. Some TB's are built downhill, but that has worked to make them the athletes that they are on the racetrack. If breeding uphill horses made them faster then that is what would have happened. The WB studbooks have used TB's through out their breeding programmes, so were they wrong, doesn't look like it!!
Touchwood
Well-Known Member
hangb I'm not sure what you base your argument on given that not only is the thoroughbred hugely successful in competition and IMO the ultimate equine athlete, but every single warmblood studbook historically uses the thoroughbred to refine and improve their stock!
Scarlett
Well-Known Member
I have a nice Tb mare by the stallion Blue Bird who raced, from being nosey and spending a few hours researching it seems Blue Bird produces nice, athletic, trainable, talented horses. I'd have another one by him in a flash if I got the chance.
Also worth noting that TB's with Sir Gaylord lines seem to go on to be good sports horses.
Also worth noting that TB's with Sir Gaylord lines seem to go on to be good sports horses.
tigers_eye
Well-Known Member
Saw two on my shopping trip by Volchebnik, had never heard of him before but apparently he's a full tb who sj'ed with Rodrigo Pessoa. Offspring were nice, out of vg mares admittedly! Might be worth investigating Baryshnikov too, stands in Wilts.
magic104
Well-Known Member
This link is a little old 2004
http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cgi-bin/csArticles/articles/000001/000113.htm
If you can stick with it, it is quiet interesting & is the only study I could find. But for those that cant;
In conclusion what can we determine from this information?
Certain bloodlines are found regularly in a 4 or 5 generation pedigree of leading world-class event horses and these lines should be sought.
In event horses, major racing successes as determined by stakes wins and SSI values in the males of the first and second generation is important. The presence of champions and speed horses who have equalled or set track records, mainly at sprinting distances, are important ingredients in the pedigree.
Preferably, sires should have an SSI above 3.54 indicating them to be in the superior racing class and in the top 3% of the racing population. This may not hold true in the case of those sires who have proven themselves as sires of numerous successful event horses.
Stallion and mare families should have numerous individuals who have had above average numbers of starts and have raced for several seasons. In many cases these horses who have had well- above average numbers of starts are not major money winners and may have a SSI value below the average of 1.0.
Although many dams and granddams did not have impressive race records in the event horses evaluated, it is important that they also are from durable families and those families with the best athletic abilities and soundness are the best bet. Some of the more successful event horses were from mares with SSI values above 1.0 and from mares who were stakes winners or stakes placed.
If more event horses were from higher quality mares, determined by racing achievements (such as stakes winners or stakes producers), it makes one wonder if these mounts would not be among the most successful in three day eventing. In any case, when possible, offspring from the best producing mares with the above outlined criteria should be considered.
http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cgi-bin/csArticles/articles/000001/000113.htm
If you can stick with it, it is quiet interesting & is the only study I could find. But for those that cant;
In conclusion what can we determine from this information?
Certain bloodlines are found regularly in a 4 or 5 generation pedigree of leading world-class event horses and these lines should be sought.
In event horses, major racing successes as determined by stakes wins and SSI values in the males of the first and second generation is important. The presence of champions and speed horses who have equalled or set track records, mainly at sprinting distances, are important ingredients in the pedigree.
Preferably, sires should have an SSI above 3.54 indicating them to be in the superior racing class and in the top 3% of the racing population. This may not hold true in the case of those sires who have proven themselves as sires of numerous successful event horses.
Stallion and mare families should have numerous individuals who have had above average numbers of starts and have raced for several seasons. In many cases these horses who have had well- above average numbers of starts are not major money winners and may have a SSI value below the average of 1.0.
Although many dams and granddams did not have impressive race records in the event horses evaluated, it is important that they also are from durable families and those families with the best athletic abilities and soundness are the best bet. Some of the more successful event horses were from mares with SSI values above 1.0 and from mares who were stakes winners or stakes placed.
If more event horses were from higher quality mares, determined by racing achievements (such as stakes winners or stakes producers), it makes one wonder if these mounts would not be among the most successful in three day eventing. In any case, when possible, offspring from the best producing mares with the above outlined criteria should be considered.
angrovestud
Well-Known Member
Wasn't the roads and tracks got rid of so warmbloods could come and join in eventing and Dressage became more prominent, but the KWPN have got a lot of money and all our buyers, its a pity that now a days we British dont believe in ourselves or our horses.
As the TB has turned a cold blood in to a warmblood.
if TB was so bad the Dutch and all the other EU societies wouldnt have used them.
Not forgetting the all important arab the daddie of them all!
As the TB has turned a cold blood in to a warmblood.
if TB was so bad the Dutch and all the other EU societies wouldnt have used them.
Not forgetting the all important arab the daddie of them all!
magic104
Well-Known Member
I forgot to add that I think the dressage would have become influential regardless of WB's taking part. I think now both eventers & showjumpers realise the importance of flatwork so horses are more schooled these days then say 10yrs or more ago. All sports evolve, there is every possibility that the stars of the 70's would struggle today. The poles were heavier, cups deeper, & courses are on the whole more technical now. I just think that the TB being pure will always have an influence. I dont think it helps though that how these horses are breed is often excluded you only have to check NED to see that (NOT a dig at NED). BE & BD entries show no breeding for Jumbo for instance;
Competition name(s) JUMBO
Date of Birth 01-Jan-1984
Gender Stallion
Colour Not known
Height - Blank
Breed Not known
Submitted by British Eventing
Birth Country - Blank
Competition name(s) JUMBO
Date of Birth 01-Jan-1984
Gender Stallion
Colour Not known
Height - Blank
Breed Not known
Submitted by British Eventing
Birth Country - Blank
angrovestud
Well-Known Member
That tells you that NED is not up to date my foals are registered with Weatherbys NTR have passsports are microchipped can I find them on Ned Big fat NO. like everything else the goverment does it gets it wrong. no time for Ned go with Sports Horse breed database up to to speed up to date and working 3 photos edited in real time not over worked, not paid society, under funded, who dont supply the correct info somethings not right as I know Weatherbys are right and other Societies are not on the ball with their info as you need to pay them to update if you dont the old info stays in place and gets passed on to NED, hense it wrong
firm
Well-Known Member
Some Tbs who have produced eventers but the list is endless.
I'm a star
Bassompiere
Stan the Man
Over the River
Smooth Stepper
Edmund Burke
Shaab
Political Merger
Heraldik
Petardia sire of Kilpatrick River
Strong Gale
Master Imp
Nickel King
Penistone
Carnival Night
Gipfel
Taldi - is he still alive?
I'm a star
Bassompiere
Stan the Man
Over the River
Smooth Stepper
Edmund Burke
Shaab
Political Merger
Heraldik
Petardia sire of Kilpatrick River
Strong Gale
Master Imp
Nickel King
Penistone
Carnival Night
Gipfel
Taldi - is he still alive?
sw123
Well-Known Member
Thanks for these....
I think as discussed on another forum, when you look that nearly all the starters at Badminton were TB (or TBx) it shows that when it comes to it your warmbloods just are never going to compete with the TB. Yes, theyr'e good to produce at lower levels, easy for pro's to bring on win some points on and sell to amateurs. Easy for amateurs to produce a smart test and a clear round on but when it comes to it, they just dont have the speed, stamina and bravery of a TB. Hence we have an Irish Bred mare and need to put as much TB as we can back into her!
I think as discussed on another forum, when you look that nearly all the starters at Badminton were TB (or TBx) it shows that when it comes to it your warmbloods just are never going to compete with the TB. Yes, theyr'e good to produce at lower levels, easy for pro's to bring on win some points on and sell to amateurs. Easy for amateurs to produce a smart test and a clear round on but when it comes to it, they just dont have the speed, stamina and bravery of a TB. Hence we have an Irish Bred mare and need to put as much TB as we can back into her!