ragwort I have had it with the myths

Thanks Esther.

Ragwort can indeed be (is in fact) a valuable plant for wildlife. However, not for our equine friends.
 
ragwortsense said:
Esther's point (and well done to all those who have mocked her English - perhaps you'd like to reply in Dutch next time)
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If it was a Dutch website then yes I would pretty much the same as when I lived on the Dutch/German border but seeing as the website has .co.uk after the domain name, I think I'll use my mother tongue thankyou very much
 
Your site rather proves OUR point, not yours?! You haven't dispelled the myths, you've confirmed them?!

Is ragwart posionous: yes

Does is spread like wildfire due to thousands of seeds: yes

Does is loose it's taste when dried (but not it's toxicity): yes

Some of your facts are misleading at best however: although the toxin is indeed broken down/excrete within a few days, it does considerabe, IRREVERSIBLE liver damage whilst there. That's the real danger of ragwort: unlike many causes of liver damage, ragwort-posioned liver cannot regerate. So no, the posion is not cumilative but the damagecertainly is.

And 'not absorbed through the skin': basically you've said 'not sure, possibly' but have decided you don't like Proffessor Knottenbelt very much and will therefore poo-poo his research, just in case. Despite WHO research suggesting that in fact it CAN be absorded through the skin (albeit mimimally). Personally I'd rather not take the risk.

All you've basically said is that the horse has to actuall die to be classed as a 'victim' of ragwart. I'd rather my horse didn't get to that stage, thanks!
 
NoseyPosey said:
If it was a Dutch website then yes I would pretty much the same as when I lived on the Dutch/German border but seeing as the website has .co.uk after the domain name, I think I'll use my mother tongue thankyou very much
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You didn't read anyway, at the frontpage of the UK domain is written
"This website is the English version of our Dutch Ragwort website."
 
Now let me see. I can listen to the well-researched views of an expert vet with decades of experience, or I can listen to your single opinion gleaned from seeing what other people pass around on the internet a la Wikipaedia. Three guesses who I believe? Of course sheep are affected by ragwort. They just react more slowly than most horses and as the majority are slaughtered when their ages are still counted in months, the symptoms go unnoticed. Ragwort is an alien species, brought to the UK in the 1800s by a University botanist. It then escaped and spread systematically around the countryside, making particular use of the then, new, railway network.
 
EstherHegt said:
You didn't read anyway, at the frontpage of the UK domain is written
"This website is the English version of our Dutch Ragwort website."
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Precisely - this is the English version, where we speak English.

So you have a dedicated Dutch ragwort site? Blimey now that IS dedication!
 
Kallibear

You've given a perfect demonstration of what Esther Hegt started this thread for.

'Despite WHO research suggesting that in fact it CAN be absorded through the skin (albeit mimimally).' Can you provide a link to the primary research because I haven't found one and I have looked?

Research on comfrey that has similar toxins has found that around 6kg of ragwort would be a fatal dose to a human if ingested. Absorbtion is about 20 times less effective so a human would need 120kg on the skin to reach a fatal dose.

Knottenbelt's claim was based on deeply flawed research techniques and it has never been replicated. Replication is a crucial part of proper science.

No-one is saying ragwort is not toxic and no-one is saying it can cause problems for horses but, as you've demonstrated, people persist in believing a lot of nonsense such as 'it spreads like wildfire' and then, when asked to support their belief in these myths they resort to abuse.

fatpiggy

You've done the same thing 'Ragwort is an alien species, brought to the UK in the 1800s by a University botanist.' That is Oxford ragwort, Senecio squaladis, not common ragwort. People use the myth that ragwort is non-native to support calls for its eradication.

NoseyPosey

Good attempt at obsfuscation. No-one is saying you should actually reply in Dutch. My point, as I'm sure you understand, is that there was no need for people to attack Esther Hegt because English is not her native language. That only makes the poster look boorish.

Many of the myths about ragwort result in it spreading more than it would if people followed the science.

But, that's enough for me. Esther was foolish to open this thread. She made the mistake of assuming that this forum was used by people who care about understanding the best ways to look after their animals.
 
She made the mistake of assuming that this forum was used by people who care about understanding the best ways to look after their animals.
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Why is not wanting our stock to eat ragwort, not looking after them........????
 
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ragwortsense said:
But, that's enough for me. Esther was foolish to open this thread. She made the mistake of assuming that this forum was used by people who care about understanding the best ways to look after their animals.
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Oh, really. Because we dont agree with you or the other poster, we dont care about our animals? I dont know how youve got to that conclusion.

Jog on.
 
amymay said:
Why is not wanting our stock to eat ragwort, not looking after them........????
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Not every plot of land with grass on it, is a field! Would you let your horse graze on a plot with old machinery, or with a fence of barbered wire, or with broken glass or old rusty nails in it, hopefully not! Why dare you call a plot of land with poisoning plants like ragwort , which it certainly is, a suitable horsefield?
Or why do you discriminate, there are a lot of plants that could be found on a plot of land like comfrey, coltsfoot, hemp-agrimony, viper's burglove and hound's tongue. All contain the same toxic as ragwort, did you know this? Some even recommendend as wonderful herbs ? Would you really get all of them out of your country, well out of a plot of land you would call a horse field for certain, but there is no need to get them out of everywere!
Inhaling spores from a plant like ragwort is a first class myth, there are no spores! Writing it down is only because someone told it to you, you didn't take te time to control the facts. Maybe you mean pollen, even they are not poisionous when inhaling them, the only risk is there when you got a allergy for this type of plant, this add the risk dat all fine dust has on your airways is made it into a advice to not to inhale lots of pollen, but this is meant the same from sawdust or any other smal particles.
Toutching it, same story, lots of people are sensitive or allergic to plants , not only ragwort, but lots of planst from this same family, that is why the advise is there to use allways gloves.
Why is pulling up the yellow flowerstalk not field maintenance, because most of the plants need 2 seasons to come to the flowering state, where where you last year?
It is no more then a next to best when you want to go hay making, but for grazing land it is bullocks, why, it isn't neccesary to flew new seads in from a neighbouring field, verge or railway, the seeds are most of the time where they sprout in your own land! Every hole you make and don't repair at once is the making of a perfect crib for the next ragwort offspring of the past!
So yes, digging or pulling ragwort isn't a good and practical way of pasture management, a grazing field isn't a lot different of a patatofield, you have to take your measures and countermeasures to keep a field full of edible grasses in stead of a heaven for plants like ragwort, the wrong choices make your field equal to a plot of land witch isn't usefull and safe for horses and its us the owners who puts them there! Every in flower ragwort plant you take up have had the posibility to harm your horse, before you take it up! But to be harmfull it must be in reach of a eating horse!
Would you tolerate a tree like black walnut or a yew in your pasture, or in the reach of any of your horses, no, because they are poisionous, the same with ragwort, not every plot of land is suitable for grazing animals, even if it's already there, it will be us who puts that horse in and at risk! Better horsemanship, first action taken to make the plot of land in a safe field for grazing is and always would be the only possible outcome.
There is no need to shoot the messenger, look for the facts, read scientific papers, they are lucky for you almost all written in plain english and make your mind up on facts!Don't stop by the plain text, look up who did write it, is it in his field of knowledge, is there a second independent writer or more which agree with what is in the paper!
Learn not only about the needs of horses, but also the needs of a field when you use one! Stop believing and repeat what you once is told, make up your knowledge and use it wisely.
Some horseowners will then find out that they are not the pasturekeeper they would be, no time ,no knowledge, no usable land but then you should make yourself think very hard, can you hire knowledge or is it no longer possible to be the good horsekeeper you would want to be and seek other solutions, your horse never may be the sad outcome of your practices or the ones that you didn't achieve!!!
And yes, a horse putting up in a field full of poisionous plants like ragwort of which other type of plant is a deadly risk! It is everywhere in the world our duty to fulfil the needs of our horses, not your neighbour, your landlord, yardowner, railway or road maintenance!
 
Not every plot of land with grass on it, is a field!
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Obviously.

Would you let your horse graze on a plot with old machinery, or with a fence of barbered wire, or with broken glass or old rusty nails in it,
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Of course not.


Why dare you call a plot of land with poisoning plants like ragwort , which it certainly is, a suitable horsefield?
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I haven't.
 
Look, OP, I really don't understand what you are worried about. Ragwort isn't, and never will be an endangered plant.
 
ragwortsense said:
NoseyPosey

Good attempt at obsfuscation. No-one is saying you should actually reply in Dutch.
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As good as.....
ragwortsense said:
perhaps you'd like to reply in Dutch next time)
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ragwortsense said:
My point, as I'm sure you understand, is that there was no need for people to attack Esther Hegt because English is not her native language.
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They weren't attacking as such, merely stating that they found it hard to get the point that was being made - maybe because of the English used.
 
I am really puzzled about what the OP is trying to get across. One minute she says that we should maintain our pasture better, the next, that we should not pull up ragwort. :confused:

What are you saying, OP? I just don't get it. Are you saying that if we maintain our pasture well with edible herbs and grasses, we will not get plants like ragwort? If so, you are wrong. My pasture has loads of money spent on it year after year, with re seeding, harrowing, fertilizing and spot spraying, but I still find new ragwort plants every week. I spot spray them as I find them. :eek:
 
fatpiggy said:
Now let me see. I can listen to the well-researched views of an expert vet with decades of experience, or I can listen to your single opinion gleaned from seeing what other people pass around on the internet a la Wikipaedia. Three guesses who I believe? Of course sheep are affected by ragwort. They just react more slowly than most horses and as the majority are slaughtered when their ages are still counted in months, the symptoms go unnoticed. Ragwort is an alien species, brought to the UK in the 1800s by a University botanist. It then escaped and spread systematically around the countryside, making particular use of the then, new, railway network.
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To fatpiggy and all the others who think the same way...
Did you also see the references page of the site of Esther Hegt and who was (and still is) helping her with this site ?

Take a moment to look at that list...
http://www.ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14&Itemid=5

Have you checked all the references ?
Now what do you think ?
Are they all talking the same "bullshit" as you think Esther Hegt is ?

You did also checked the refference of the "Knottebelt" version ?....or not ???
 
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Oh noes! They appear to be multiplying uncontrollably, just like ragwort :D Please save us from this infestation of ragwort enthusiasts!

Ragwort is poisonous to horses, therefore I will not have it in land my horse has access to, along with other poisonous species. End of story.

I'm not on a 'botanic' cleansing crusade, I am doing what any responsible horse owner would do :rolleyes:
 
Black Beastie said:
Yup farmers dont care as they take the cows etc out before there is too little grass to have the beasts NEED to eat it so they dont are that it spreads everywhere. Its horrid stuff and I end up minging after pullin it and my hands stink for days even with repeated scrubbings and gloves :(

Government just doesnt impse heavy enough fines OR any help for those who just CANNOT get rid of the blurry stuff :mad:

Yeah we try but there is always some there but the nags dont eat it as they ahve enough to eat. I actually like winter in these fields as there is NONE!! :(
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Don't tar all farmers with the same brush. We are dairy farmers and spray to control ragwort and other weeds. How dare you insinuate that farmers are to blame, some I agree maybe don't care, but some of us do.

Here in Dumfries and Galloway I blame the council more than farmers, there is far more ragwort in the grass verges than in the fields. But hey ho, what would us lazy farmers care anyway?
 
Well, blow me, I never knew there was such a thing as a ragwort enthusiast-fascinating.
But you haven't changed my mind
 
What on earth is this argument about :D ?

Ragwort is abundant in the UK and at no risk of dying out.

Ragwort is poisonous to horses and they will readily eat it when dried, which can happen in the field as well as in hay.

Ragwort is easy to spot and easy to pull up by the roots.

So who in their right minds would not pull it up in a field grazed by horses?

Contrary to what has been written in some posts on this thread I have never, in all the 20 years I have been pulling ragwort from my own field, my neighbours fields and the council's verges, ever had a plant regrow where I pulled it up.

What's the problem, am I missing something :D ?



ps when was ragwort made a controlled species by Maff/Defra/whoever? I'm pretty sure it was before Prof Knottenbelt ever started talking about it, no? ..... edit, just found it. 1959 !!!!
 
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Do you think there is any chance that Esther is getting a load of complaints from her neighbours about her failure to control ragwort on land bordering theirs? I can't think of any other reason, except perhaps trolling, that would make anyone post a thread like this.

Esther can you please explain your motivation? The plant is not at risk. Removing it does no harm. What are you trying to achieve with this thread?
 
I read Esther's papers after she was a bit rude to me on another thread ;) I like to be balanced about these things. ;) From what I can gather she thinks that if we keep our fields like our front lawns then we won't have ragwort. Well, probably not. My lawn gets mown a couple of times a week during the growing season, so it looks lovely. Unfortunately my horses like to go out in my fields, so the fields don't look so lovely, and my neighbours aren't nearly so bothered about controlling ragwort as I am, so I have to yank a bit of it up now and then, and I am obsessive about clearing it from my hay fields. Sorry about that Esther.

Esther also poo-pood my assertion that I feel extremely ill after pulling loads of ragwort (I've been at it for years, so have some experience of the plant) and my sure and certain knowledge that people who have burned the weed have ended up in hospital afterwards. But then she is the expert and I am just a dim horse owner ....

There is plenty round and about for the orange and black stripey squishy things, so I don't feel too badly about depriving them of a small percentage of their food source.

Oh, and a friend's new horse has just been diagnosed with severe ragwort poisoning :( On looking at the breeder's website it is interesting to see they graze loads of horses on fields with no grass but a lot of ragwort plants :(
 
Rowreach said:
Oh, and a friend's new horse has just been diagnosed with severe ragwort poisoning :( On looking at the breeder's website it is interesting to see they graze loads of horses on fields with no grass but a lot of ragwort plants :(
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That's amazing ??

Fact: (you can control this fact !! )
Until today there is no test that can proof that only ragwort is the trouble-maker for a diagnose like this.

The only way that you can be sure that ragwort is the cause.... is given you're horse ragworth... and some more ragworth.... and some more ragworth...

I don't think you're friend or the owner before did this ?
And if... Who's to blame than, the plant ? or the one who give it to a horse ?
Having and keeping a horse is also knowing what they can and can't eat....
 
cptrayes said:
Esther can you please explain your motivation? The plant is not at risk. Removing it does no harm. What are you trying to achieve with this thread?
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Please show me where I tell ragwort is NOT a risk for horses. Can you explain what poo-pood means for the not native speakers?
By the way, we asked Knottenbelt if he had proove for the skin absoption myt, he informed us by email he has not.
If you become ill, that is possible, http://www.ragwort.org.uk/facts-or-...oning-through-skin-absorption-fact-or-fiction as yoou can see This allergy can appear after touching or eating the plant. This allergy is not caused by the pyrrolizidine alkaloids but by other substances that are common in many of the members of the Sunflower family (sesquiterpene lactones)
 
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