ragwort I have had it with the myths
- Thread starter EstherHegt
- Start date
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Blimey, HHO has a ragwort lover infestation. Just shows how quickly the seeds spread.
BTW, If I've pulled ragwort without wearing gloves, my skin burns far worse than when I've been horseapaulted into a patch of nettles.
Also agree with the poster who says blame the councils (and lovers of unsquashed ragwort loving little creepy crawlies) for failing to control ragwort, rather than farmers.
BTW, If I've pulled ragwort without wearing gloves, my skin burns far worse than when I've been horseapaulted into a patch of nettles.
Also agree with the poster who says blame the councils (and lovers of unsquashed ragwort loving little creepy crawlies) for failing to control ragwort, rather than farmers.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
So why is it a specified weed if it is so harmless? Why isn't every weed in the country specified?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
This is not relevant to what I asked. What I asked was:
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE WITH THIS THREAD. WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT US TO DO?
Is it to allow ragwort to grow in our fields? Or for your neighbours to stop bugging you about ragwort that is growing in yours?
ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
The Association for Ragwort Species Enlightenment (ARSE) are certifiably insane. Ragwort is my enemy. If I so much as see an inkling of the devil plant, it is dug up and suffers an excruciating death by burning. This small act brings me great pleasure.
EstherHegt
Well-Known Member
OK wat I am trying to explain is that you don 't have to be so scared, there is a lot of misinformation at the internet about ragwort, that makes people afraid, and if they want ragwort out of their pasture, they often use methods that are not effective, but can make it worse.
Kottenbelt did create a lot of this myths, like the skin absorption myth, 6500 dead horses a year and so on, but myths don't solve the problem. It is much better to understand what circumstances do ragwort like to grow, prevent that in the pasture, buy good hay without ragwort, and do something about good info, ask Defra for figures, or the uni of Liverpool, ask them how many victims are there really. Look also to other poisonous plants, or very fat horses who develop laminitis, look at fluke, grass sicknes etc, that are much bigger problems.
A very good friend of my did lost a horse possible that was ragwort, the last owner, before they got that horse didn't know ragwort, he mowed it and he fed it to the horse, dried it is a danger. A pasture with no grass but a lot of ragwort is also danger, but you can fight it with good management. Don't put salt in the holes when you dig up the plant, grass wil not grow at such a spot and that prevents a dense sward, stop please to believe the myths, look at the facts.
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
OK We've all looked at the facts.
Now,
WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO ABOUT THEM THAT WE DON'T DO ALREADY?
The only advice that I can see that you have given that is any different from what people are already doing is "don't put salt in the holes". Most of us never did. Big deal, is that it?
What is the point of this thread?
Now,
WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO ABOUT THEM THAT WE DON'T DO ALREADY?
The only advice that I can see that you have given that is any different from what people are already doing is "don't put salt in the holes". Most of us never did. Big deal, is that it?
What is the point of this thread?
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Esther, some advice for you.
If something is dangerous and people treat it as not dangerous, then that is a sensible thing to write a thread about warning people what to do.
If something is only a little dangerous and people treat it as properly dangerous, then there is no point whatsoever exhorting people to "check out the facts" when it's not going to change anyone's behaviour, because it is still dangerous, just not quite as much as they might think.
ps I think you will find that it's a damned sight easier to pull ragwort up when you see it than it is to create conditions in which ragwort does not want to grow. I want my "poor quality" hill wildflower meadow just as it is, attractive to ragwort or not. It's just the ragwort I don't want, so I pull it up. Simples.
If something is dangerous and people treat it as not dangerous, then that is a sensible thing to write a thread about warning people what to do.
If something is only a little dangerous and people treat it as properly dangerous, then there is no point whatsoever exhorting people to "check out the facts" when it's not going to change anyone's behaviour, because it is still dangerous, just not quite as much as they might think.
ps I think you will find that it's a damned sight easier to pull ragwort up when you see it than it is to create conditions in which ragwort does not want to grow. I want my "poor quality" hill wildflower meadow just as it is, attractive to ragwort or not. It's just the ragwort I don't want, so I pull it up. Simples.
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EstherHegt
Well-Known Member
you can also create hysteria, and that is what happens in UK.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
But this "hysteria" is entirely harmless! Why does it bother you so?
Nick Altena
Active Member
I just registered here and have read the forum rules.
Maybe you should also ...
Personal attacks are not allowed
I know that my English writing is not good, I had written this in my signature just for this type of reactions.
Google is a help, but certainly not flawless.
Would you try to write / read Dutch?
Come on, give substantiated answers.
It is not even necessary that they are not of the same idea as that of our
But when you have nothing sensible to say you do not write this type of response
From this we learn nothing ....
Incidentally, we (also) appear here because there are a lot of emails from England include people who have to look further into this issue ...
They hear, see and read other things that we have discovered through years of searching with the help of many professional people /
And coincidence or not, but almost everyone, including in England, one starts from the version of Knottenbelt with statements in mail he has admitted to have made mistakes ....
a question for you:
Any idea how well scientific research works?
A second question:
Why do you think Knottebelts scientific studies about ragwort have never been published or repeated to see what Knottenbelt claimed was true?
Yes he did research about ragwort, but not in the proper scientific way ....
Yet I see on almost any other site in England (but also in other countries that have the same info unthinkingly took over) his statements ....
Facts ?
Here is a link so you can control what i'm writing:
http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine/staff/derekknottenbelt/
The only scientific research publication about the PA's and blood with some work of Knottebelt is this one:
Moore, R.E. Knottenbelt, D. Matthews, J.B. Beynon, R.J. & Whitfield, P.D. (2008) Biomarkers for Ragwort Poisoning in Horses: Identification of Protein Targets. BMC Veterinary Research MS: 1237079124188210
But this was not specific ragwort PA, there are moor than 6000 ! plants with the (almost) same PA's.
So... this time a normal answer please ?
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Nick as far as I can see no-one is suggesting that horse pasture should be allowed to grow ragwort.
So my question is the same for you, irrespective of what Knottenbelt has or has not published:
what does it matter for us ordinary folk on HHO?
If you and Esther are only on here to try to damage Knottenbelt's reputation can you please go and do it somewhere else?
...
So my question is the same for you, irrespective of what Knottenbelt has or has not published:
what does it matter for us ordinary folk on HHO?
If you and Esther are only on here to try to damage Knottenbelt's reputation can you please go and do it somewhere else?
...
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Funny that, I've yet to meet an adrenaline fuelled ragwort phobic who rushes out to yank armfuls of the yellow stuff from verges and parks.
More like a resigned horseowner armed with a fork and black bin bag trudging off with the same relish as they have when filling barrows with horse poo.
Its a necessary evil to be dealt with on grazing land. No hysteria needed.
rhino
Well-Known Member
Yes. Funnily enough with degrees in Biochemistry and Medical Diagnostics, and with peer reviewed publications in animal health to my name, I am not the hysterical idiot you seem to assume all HHO users are
What would be the point really? Ragwort is poisonous to horses, I think we are all agreed on that. I would rather the stingy research budgets available to researchers in the UK was utilised for more important things... things that would actually make a difference.
If you're so certain he's wrong, why don't you to raise the money and repeat the research yourself?!
Until then I'll continue to make sure my horses don't have access to Ragwort
as a part of their management.foxy1
Well-Known Member
Um... I'm so confused by this thread.
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Ragwort has historically been a noxious weed and until quite recently was listed in the Weeds Act 1959 as 'injurous'. Landowners failing to address large scale spreading (and thus onto others' land and causing further problem (crop contamination by alkaloid poisoning) were liable to a fine, so this has long been acknowledged as a 'weed' with a problem above that of being merely undesireable.
For inexplicable reasons, the laws on ragwort control have been relaxed to a point where its spread across England is unstoppable and the plant pretty much contaminates all land now. Even my lawn
I shall continue to hunt it down and dig it up, spray for it and uproot other locally-growing specimins if I am entitled to - and also if I'm not but stand little chance of being caught doing so. I will continue to check for its presence in my haylage and curse the fact I need to do so. As a responsible horse-owner, that is.
OP, you are wasting your breath here.
For inexplicable reasons, the laws on ragwort control have been relaxed to a point where its spread across England is unstoppable and the plant pretty much contaminates all land now. Even my lawn
I shall continue to hunt it down and dig it up, spray for it and uproot other locally-growing specimins if I am entitled to - and also if I'm not but stand little chance of being caught doing so. I will continue to check for its presence in my haylage and curse the fact I need to do so. As a responsible horse-owner, that is.
OP, you are wasting your breath here.
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
Well they are very pretty caterpillers! Seriously,one way of increasing a plant is by root cuttings.So if you pull a ragwort plant out do the remaining shreds of root regenerate into more plants?
Not suggesting anyone stops their efforts..but in the interest of insect conservation.....
Not suggesting anyone stops their efforts..but in the interest of insect conservation.....
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
As has been stated, ragwort is a noxious weed listed in the Weeds Act 1959, it is also an offence under animal welfare legislation to graze livestock in a field infested with ragwort. Occupiers who receive the Single Farm Payment (i.e. most farmers) are required to control ragwort under Cross Compliance (i.e. it is a condition of receiving their subsidy). Rural Payment and Inspections Directorate inspectors are obliged to act where they notice a breach of cross compliance (e.g. they see ragwort). They do not need to be inspecting the infested holding.
If you see ragwort, please report it to your local office of DEFRA (details at http://www.defra.gov.uk/forms/2011/03/30/weed2-complaint/). I would enclose a covering letter stating that you have also sent a copy of the complaint to your MP. RPID inspectors are public servants paid by us to do a job. If they don't do it, initiate a formal complaint. DEFRA will supply a booklet telling you how!
Yes, it is a long drawn out exercise. But so so worth it to see these lazy beggars being made to do the job they are paid to do for once!
That, of course, is if they aren't on strike for bigger pensions!
Oh, I do feel better now!
If you see ragwort, please report it to your local office of DEFRA (details at http://www.defra.gov.uk/forms/2011/03/30/weed2-complaint/). I would enclose a covering letter stating that you have also sent a copy of the complaint to your MP. RPID inspectors are public servants paid by us to do a job. If they don't do it, initiate a formal complaint. DEFRA will supply a booklet telling you how!
Yes, it is a long drawn out exercise. But so so worth it to see these lazy beggars being made to do the job they are paid to do for once!
That, of course, is if they aren't on strike for bigger pensions!Oh, I do feel better now!
Crugeran Celt
Well-Known Member
I have the same problem, I pull the ragwort by hand every year(10 acres) but surrounding fields are full of it. Bought our property 19 years ago and I must say it was as bad as neighbouring fields to start with and would take about 2 weeks of up to 6 hours a day with 3 of us pulling it to clear that years growth, now only takes two of us two afternoons work so it is improving year on year. As to it not being poisonous please explain how a friends horse died of ragwort poisoning? Not going to take the chance myself and will continue to pull it. Rag forks are brilliant by the way.
Pebble101
Well-Known Member
Who are 'we'?
Alec Swan
...
As you so rightly say, time to dispel a few myths!
Ragwort;
is poisonous in what ever form.
It is unpalatable when green, and is generally only ingested at times of starvation. Horses can, when hard pressed, develop a liking for it.
Different animals have different tolerance levels. Sheep are high, and horses are low.
For Ragwort to work efficiently and for it to kill a horse, there needs to be a substantial intake, and over an extended period.
There are several ways of ridding land of Ragwort, so we're told, but only two actually work;
The most efficient way is to have a grazing regime, involving sheep. They seem to like the weed and it doesn't like them!
Ragwort is a bi-annual. The rosettes which grow this year will become plants next year.
Spraying works, but the timing is vital, and so are the chemicals used. MCPA and Agent 24 D with a decent glueing agent, Rhino for instance, are the best method, and they need to be applied annually, until the plants have gone.
There is a very real danger with spraying, and horses. When the plant starts to die, the stage when it's turning yellow, it puts up heavy sugar deposits in an effort to save itself, and becomes very attractive to equines. The plant needs to be thoroughly dead and rotted before horses are turned out.
Pulling Ragwort is a waist of time, in that if the plants are large and strong enough, the root segments left behind, will themselves, turn into plants.
The liver is a curious organ, in that when half of it is removed, for the purpose of donation, for instance, it recovers within about 6 weeks. When the liver becomes diseased, Ragwort, Liver Fluke, or booze in humans, it takes many years to recover, if at all.
The other major influence over the prolificacy of Ragwort, is that the plant loves arid or very close cropped ground, exactly the type of ground on which horses are generally kept. It doesn't like competing with a dense grass sward, which is rarely offered to horses.
Alec.
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Im a farmers daughter
(well ex farmers daughter lol my dad no longer farms) and yes the farmers round my friends land ARE lazy, they REFUSE to spray the parks.Take gumption if you like, winding yourself up over summat thats nothing to do with you is pointless but each to their own after all, but I NEVER said ALL farmers are lazy I said I hated lazy farmers
HappyHooves
Well-Known Member
If I constantly tell forum members about a product in which I have a vested interest, telling them that their opinions are wrong and only 'my' product is right I think I would be hounded out. So, lets remember this about the OP....
"The website 'Ragwort myths and facts' is produced by horse owner Esther Hegt in conjunction with an international array of experts, including Dr Pieter Pelser, who is a world authority on ragwort with a Phd specifically on the plant."
Maybe its a chap with a Phd ( wow!) who has it in for Knottenbelt. Anyway, lets leave the Dutch to their beliefs about a plant that we English, sorry British, think is poisonous to horses.
"The website 'Ragwort myths and facts' is produced by horse owner Esther Hegt in conjunction with an international array of experts, including Dr Pieter Pelser, who is a world authority on ragwort with a Phd specifically on the plant."
Maybe its a chap with a Phd ( wow!) who has it in for Knottenbelt. Anyway, lets leave the Dutch to their beliefs about a plant that we English, sorry British, think is poisonous to horses.
Nick Altena
Active Member
Yes. Funnily enough with degrees in Biochemistry and Medical Diagnostics, and with peer reviewed publications in animal health to my name, I am not the hysterical idiot you seem to assume all HHO users are
I know my Enlgisch is bad... but i also know i never wrote that.
Dont'put me word's in my mouth i never say.
We hope to make some differense in the way a lot of people are thinking (and speaking/writing ) at this moment.
But for me personaly ?
For me it's enough that people DO think about this subject and look a little further than only Knottebelt's info or the many many site's that only take over the thing's other people written without any control if it's a solid scientifically proven fact , some guesswork !! , or thoughts ... or simply a myth.
The budget be better spend on better education about ragwort
Not only for the horse-owners... but also for the people that we (in the Nehterlands see en hear from ( do they have horses alsoo ?) ... like this one :
http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/british-horse-society-spokespersons.html
Or on the BBC Radio Lancashire's breakfast programme for example
http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/bbc-posts-biased-items-on-ragwort.html
And that is only a example... there are a lot more of this kinds of education for people .... performed by people without knowing anythink about ragwort...
I also don't have that money , but....
We DO have a lot of friends who helps us for free
There is no need repeating what he has done.
We know from other studies that some of his allegations are not posible...
We also KNOW that ragwort has Pyrrolizidine Alkaloid and we also know that that PA is not what you want to give you're horse.
We know the facts about this PA that's find in about 6000 plants , and a lot of them already is investigated on what it does in animals en people.
We also know when there is a (high) risk (in hay for example and yes , with occasionally eating fresh )
do not get us wrong !!
In the first instance WE also believed the story's written down on a Dutch site as if it was truth.
Normaly you think when a professor say that kind off stuff... he has done his studies in a thorough way.... until .... we just ask some people some simple questions
And there was more than one reason for those questions.
Questions because whe don't believe everythink we see on that specific Dutch site where it was first written.
And of course because we have horses !! and whe also have common ragwort and a lot other plants with this PA toxin in the Netherlands (for years, its not only the last past years growing here)
So we often want to see some research results ( and that's not only by this subject ragwort !! )
Luck for us... many intresting people want to talk about there studies to intresting people like a horse owner
We want to know HOW a study is done...
For example we simple want to know HOW some-one get his/ her's numbers of the many dead horses.
Because when you know how they did that research in England ... we (in the Netherlands) perhaps can start it here the same way ... and so on.
Why reinvent the wheel if this has already been done...
Simple questions... but strange answers came out.
And yes... ONE of the people we ask simple questions was mr Kottenbelt himself
And by strange answers... we simply want to know (and learn) more and more....
One of the things that WE where alsoo looking for is a way to avoid ragwort in the hay so a lot horse owners have no (or at least less) problems when they heave purchased the horse hay in a shop (not everyone has his one fields).
In the Netherlands for example it was the same Esther Hegt that has organized that the (horse) hay is checked and certified now before selling.
Is this also done in England ? can you really trust what you're buying ?
Here for example people were selling hay as "natural horse hay" with good quality.
Yes...indeed... naturaly... it came from the stroke near the highway's.... filt with ??? a lot of ragwort!
But only the name... natural horse hay ... was one of the reasons people buy that hay while they simply have to much trust in sellers.....
(by law they , the sellers and mostly also the same people who are responsable for maintenance along the way , must distroy that stuff but there was no control on it !!)
We also have written a lot of goverments and sellers of seeds , because one of the problems here was that the spread the seeds near the roads and in privat gardens (it's a nice yellow flower , they where thinking...)
That's a little of the kind of stuff we are doing here...
Tell people that there IS somethink we can do about that ragwort problem for us horse owners, without causing panic to people who only heare somethink but have no knowledge if its the truth what they hear. (see above for example)
[/QUOTE]
Until then I'll continue to make sure my horses don't have access to Ragwort
as a part of their management.[/QUOTE]Do not get us wrong again!!
We do the same !! But i must commit...
I have filmed horses in a nature pasture field with a awful lot of ragwort.
Not the kind of pasture where I would put my horse in.
I spend hours there... but didn't see ONE horse eating ragwort. (and yes there were several "wild" horses )
BUT i also don't want to see that stuff in MY fields where MY horse is eating!
I hope you and other people now understand why we are pointing out tis ragwort "problem"
Yes , it is a problem in the pasture for several animals , but not the problem as several (read a lot) media let us know.
The site of Esther Hegt is just so you can read an other site of the story and maybe some-one learn some-think like new information.
The references on that site are from a lot of people with al lot of knowledge of ragwort and they , also today , keep us informed with the latest information about ragwort in the world (no... not only in the Netherlands but from everywere )
That's simply one site you can have a little more trust in for you're info than you're radio or TV , newspapers or selling site's and other papers that whe see everywhere writing the same (old)stuff
Nick Altena
Active Member
Sorry, we... Esther Hegt and me.
As horse owners we share the same concerns about ragwort and the information about it for years.
I am a close friend and involved in the research we did about the myths and facts.
I work like a lot of other people on the backgroud for the ragwort site (the Dutch version) , searching for info , mailing people and so on
Through this work I learned a lot about ragwort and what a good scientific studie is
Maybe most inportant... i learn also that if you are open minded you can ask those scientists a lot of questions where you then also get comprehensive answers .... even with my poor English writing
... nothing more... nothing less..
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Sorry, we... Esther Hegt and me.
As horse owners we share the same concerns about ragwort and the information about it for years.
I am a close friend and involved in the research we did about the myths and facts.
I work like a lot of other people on the backgroud for the ragwort site (the Dutch version) , searching for info , mailing people and so on
Through this work I learned a lot about ragwort and what a good scientific studie is
Maybe most inportant... i learn also that if you are open minded you can ask those scientists a lot of questions where you then also get comprehensive answers .... even with my poor English writing
... nothing more... nothing less..
I'm sorry - please can you explain to me very briefly the point you are making? I don't quite get it - it strikes me you are both saying ragwort is toxic to horses but advising people not to get rid of it. What would you advise rather than getting rid of it??
Nick Altena
Active Member
Well they are very pretty caterpillers! Seriously,one way of increasing a plant is by root cuttings.So if you pull a ragwort plant out do the remaining shreds of root regenerate into more plants?
Not suggesting anyone stops their efforts..but in the interest of insect conservation.....
Seriously, one way of DEcreasing a ragwort plant is... a lot of caterpillars
Nick Altena
Active Member
Verry briefly ?
I try but speak for myself:
Read and hear the info in the given links... but then all of them...
See the difference in what the English media is telling you... and what the ragwort site of Esther is trying to explain (and we also do here on this site...)
The facts and the myths (the myths mentioned on the ragwort site are coming from England)
And after that... think what ever you want .....about us....or other people telling you about ragwort....
But research and thinking self, not because someone calls what he has (maybe) heard somewhere
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EstherHegt
Well-Known Member
No that is NOT the advise, that is the blindness of this discussion, but I am very glad you tell you don't understand.
The big problem is, there are myths, like skin absorption by PA's. that is not a fact. it is a myth. You can mail Knottenbelt and ask him, does he has proof, no he don't.
The myth is also 6500 horses die in a year at ragwort, go ask Defra Liverpool etc. use your rights for honest and fair info. This is somebody who did this!! http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/blog/blog111011.htm read it, and use your right for fair info.
We did it too, and we got a lot of help from experts at ragwort.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Verry briefly ?
I try:
Read and hear the info in the given links... but then all of them...
See the difference in what the English media is telling you... and what the ragwort site of Esther is trying to explain (and we also do here on this site...)
The facts and the myths (the myths mentioned on the ragwort site are coming from England)
And after that... think what ever you want .....about us....or other people telling you about ragwort....
Sorry, I asked could you briefly tell me what the main factors were in the argument. I can't be bothered reading anything else tbh because I always make sure my horse's field is free of ragwort. I have known many a horse (and I mean MANY) that have come up with liver damage due to the pasture they were kept on having no grass and an abundance of ragwort.