Moomin1
Well-Known Member
I'm very sorry - I don't know if it's your English but I really don't get your point?
What do you suggest people do about ragwort in their horse's field?
ragwort I have had it with the myths
- Thread starter EstherHegt
- Start date
I'm very sorry - I don't know if it's your English but I really don't get your point?
What do you suggest people do about ragwort in their horse's field?
EstherHegt
Well-Known Member
Good pasture management, look at your field and make a good dense sward, look at my signature, ragwort is easer to prevent than cure, theer is a lot of advice.
rhino
Well-Known Member
I think the point is an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt
Nothing more, nothing less.EstherHegt
Well-Known Member
who burns his buttocks has to sit on the blistersI think the point is an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I'm very tired, have a lot of hassle at work tomorrow and paperwork to do, please could you summarise HOW to maintain a good pasture. I am not being pedantic I just am too tired to read through your links.
Please, just in brief?
rhino
Well-Known Member
Pathetic
Who has done more for equine welfare and research in this country than almost anyone else has my respect.
Take your petty crusade elsewhere if you want a positive reaction. You'll find the HHOers have far more common sense than to fall for it here.
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Capriole
Well-Known Member
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Oh god I can't be arsed any more I'm off to bed!!!
HappyHooves
Well-Known Member
Seriously, one way of DEcreasing a ragwort plant is... a lot of caterpillars
INCORRECT and probably one of your own myths for which you have done no proper scientific research. Eating the leaves doesn't kill the plant.
Will you explain why the website you Dutch folk are constantly advertising ( PLEASE don't put another link on for it- it doesn't always pay to advertise) why on that site you feel it necessary to name Prof K at every possible opportunity? Has one of the 'experts' got something personal against him I wonder. The only aspect of the Ragwort myth debate you have mentioned was concerning the absorption of the actively toxic substance through human skin, for which Prof K admitted he had no scientific research evidence. Yet the Dutch on this forum imply that he is spreading a whole lot of myths about ragwort. Which others is the good Prof responsible for?
KdyK
New User
HappyHooves
Well-Known Member
Oh forgot to ask.. How many horses die in the Netherlands from ragwort poisoning? Presume there must be lots since you bother with a dedicated website about Ragwort.
maybe postmortems on horses are subsidised by someone?
maybe postmortems on horses are subsidised by someone?
Box_Of_Frogs
Well-Known Member
EH, I'm sick of this. I challenge you to prove that ragwort isn't poisonous. Find a nice field of the stuff and eat a bowlful every day for say, a month. Then report back to this Forum. I know humans aren't horses but hey we're all mammals so off you go and start eating. Bon appetit.
EstherHegt
Well-Known Member
We did make a survey http://www.jakobskruiskruid.com/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=27
Maybe google translate can help. tomorrow I can try it to translate how we did this, we had help wiht the questionary from toxicologists from our health care for catttle and horses. ( like DEFRA) Questions who did the diagnose, where there bloodsamples, was there a biopsy, was it in the feed etc. That is what I mentioned in my OP post, do a poll. Find out the true. we had a few victims, not al where prooven.
We had some outbreaks with cows, related at hay. That is documented and published.
If you have hay, and a lot of cows it is a problem like ONE fire with more victims. That are not seperate fires. Look at pub med, that is a good source http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=ragwort poisoning
If you did that you can see ragwort is poisonous, then search skin absoption etc. Use the terms pyrrolizide alkaloids, ragwort senecio or jacobaea or equin. Find your sources. Ask experts. Then you find the true.
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LittleWildOne
Well-Known Member
Seriously, one way of DEcreasing a ragwort plant is... a lot of caterpillars
Ahhhhh ! Got It !
They are trying to sell us Cinnabar Moth larvae
I'll let you Dutch preachers into a WEEEEEEEE SECRET - We already HAVE Cinnabar Moths here in the UK
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
This is RUBBISH if, as many of us are, you are deliberately trying to grow unfertilized, "poor" quality grass in order to prevent laminitic issues in horses.
Ragwort LOVES unfertilized, hill wildflower meadow. It is much easier to pull it up by hand than to prevent it.
And I'll repeat. I have been pulling ragwort by hand with no other treatment for 20 years and I have yet to see it regrow in any of the places that I have pulled it. It reseeds into new places from the verges and from my farming neighbours.
Nick/Esther
I do not understand why your advice to prevent ragwort growth in horse pasture and buy only ragwort free hay requires all the rest of the gubbins that you are writing, which reads like a vendetta against Professor Knottenbelt. I also do not understand why you think we do not already know that we should prevent ragwort growth in horse pasture and buy only ragwort free hay. On the one hand you are a saying that we are hysterical about ragwort and the next moment you are teaching us to suck eggs. Please stop, it's getting ridiculous, and insulting.
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Clava
Well-Known Member
Actually it does if you pull it when it is just a rosette and not about to flower, any tiny roots left behind develop into plants, but if you pull it later in it's growth cycle then no new plants develop! I know this because a friend said it was easier to dig them up when small...and I returned to the places I had dug and found new plants sprouting where I had failed to get all the roots up - Never again!!!
touchstone
Well-Known Member
The last thing my laminitic needs is 'a good dense sward' I deliberately keep my grazing short and sparse to protect my horse's health. Heavily fertilised lush grazing is not ideal horse pasture. As for ragwort not growing in a good dense sward I'd also argue that it does, I regularly find rosettes growing in my well maintained lawn.
Regardless of whether skin absorption is a myth or not (if you don't believe it just don't bother wearing gloves) and whether there are hundreds or one horse that dies I couldn't give a toss, one death is too many and I will continue to eradicate it by pulling from my pasture. I took on a paddock that had been neglected and it has taken me fifteen years to get on top of it by regular pulling of ragwort. I'm not prepared to let it take over again by leaving it, and I agree with cptrayes, I've never had it regrow after being pulled by the roots, I suspect any regrowth is from the thousands of seeds one plant produces that can last twenty years.
ragwortsense
Member
At this time every year, there are a lot of stories about ragwort that do not reflect the facts. There will be advice to put salt in the holes left by pulling ragwort. There will be well-meaning groups of volunteers 'going to war' against ragwort in ways that will assist its spread. And there will be people calling for its complete eradication.
It happens every year and it is always based on myths and lies about how ragwort works.
Esther hoped that by raising concerns that these myths tend to INCREASE the amount of ragwort intelligent horse owners would know what to do when faced with badly researched news stories.
Sadly, what has happened is that there has been an unbelievable amount of personal abuse that should make the people concerned ashamed.
There has also been a world of misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise. Box_Of_Frogs, just to give one example, says 'I challenge you to prove that ragwort isn't poisonous'. No-one has suggested that ragwort is not poisonous. The difference lies between being poisonous and being harmful. Some of the beliefs expressed, even here, make ragwort MORE harmful.
But, as importantly, the myths have continued to be recycled.
Take brighteyes, again just one example. 'the laws on ragwort control have been relaxed to a point where its spread across England is unstoppable and the plant pretty much contaminates all land now'. Not true. There has been no relaxation of the laws. The 2003 Ragwort Control Act was intended to give a more structured way of implementing the Weeds Act of 1959. Look at the records for things like dock and see how ineffective the Weeds Act has been. And properly conducted studies show that common ragwort is not more abundant than in the past.
It happens every year and it is always based on myths and lies about how ragwort works.
Esther hoped that by raising concerns that these myths tend to INCREASE the amount of ragwort intelligent horse owners would know what to do when faced with badly researched news stories.
Sadly, what has happened is that there has been an unbelievable amount of personal abuse that should make the people concerned ashamed.
There has also been a world of misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise. Box_Of_Frogs, just to give one example, says 'I challenge you to prove that ragwort isn't poisonous'. No-one has suggested that ragwort is not poisonous. The difference lies between being poisonous and being harmful. Some of the beliefs expressed, even here, make ragwort MORE harmful.
But, as importantly, the myths have continued to be recycled.
Take brighteyes, again just one example. 'the laws on ragwort control have been relaxed to a point where its spread across England is unstoppable and the plant pretty much contaminates all land now'. Not true. There has been no relaxation of the laws. The 2003 Ragwort Control Act was intended to give a more structured way of implementing the Weeds Act of 1959. Look at the records for things like dock and see how ineffective the Weeds Act has been. And properly conducted studies show that common ragwort is not more abundant than in the past.
Alec Swan
...
Generally, a good post, but I can't agree with your last paragraph. Whilst it was the intention, that the Act would force those who are responsible for land management to act against the weed, the simple fact is that the regulations are ignored by most. The simplest way to force compliance is to withhold all SFP and Conservation benefits. That'd work!
To suggest that "Properly conducted studies" have revealed that there is no more common occurrence of ragwort cannot be right, and I'd be tempted to believe the research to be skewed. I've lived with ragwort all my life, and I'm 66 years old, I pulled it as a child, and I'm still dealing with it, only the situation is now considerably worse, at least here in East Anglia it is.
Alec.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Looking on wildlife sites, it seems that the hysteria and propaganda for protecting ragwort comes from there.
Ragwort has a lot of friends it seems and there is a strong anti horse sentiment with statements on conservation forums like 'horses should not be kept in fields then.'
There is criticism of the BHS ragwort awareness week and the work of the Countryside Alliance in controlling its spread.
The Cinnibar Moth is a common moth, it is not endangered in the UK. The facts are that 89% of vets have treated suspected ragwort poisoning in horses. However, the friends of ragwort choose to challenge reports of ragwort fatalities where no post mortem was performed. How many horse owners are in a position to pay for a PM in addition to vet bills and disposal ?
Our Dutch friends are strangely very busy on the internet in promoting ragwort, I can only guess that their obsession in increasing the Cinnibar Moth population is higher on their agenda than protecting horses.
Ragwort has a lot of friends it seems and there is a strong anti horse sentiment with statements on conservation forums like 'horses should not be kept in fields then.'
There is criticism of the BHS ragwort awareness week and the work of the Countryside Alliance in controlling its spread.
The Cinnibar Moth is a common moth, it is not endangered in the UK. The facts are that 89% of vets have treated suspected ragwort poisoning in horses. However, the friends of ragwort choose to challenge reports of ragwort fatalities where no post mortem was performed. How many horse owners are in a position to pay for a PM in addition to vet bills and disposal ?
Our Dutch friends are strangely very busy on the internet in promoting ragwort, I can only guess that their obsession in increasing the Cinnibar Moth population is higher on their agenda than protecting horses.
Nick Altena
Active Member
All you're life... and you're 66
I read in other post...20 years...15 years...pulling ragwort to lose it.
That's a long time , especially if written by some people here that no new plants come up when you pull out the plant.
I have some questions reading this:
Like Alec, a lot of people say that ragworth is coming up more and more...
What do the people here think is the reason for that ?
Why is it taken so long to lose the ragwort from you're pastures when pulling is so successfull as written down by a lot of people here?
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
No one said they were pulling ragwort from the same pasture for 20 years. Many horse owners move their horses around.
misterjinglejay
Well-Known Member
Because there is a lot more set aside land, a lot more common land, a lot more derelict sites etc. Plus more roadworks that disperse the seeds, and more long distance travel that, again, spreads the seeds.
touchstone
Well-Known Member
I'd suspect a lot if it is due to the fact that the plant produces 150.000 seeds or thereabouts, which can lie dormant for 20 years, so a single ragwort that goes to seed can infiltrate that land for a lengthy period of time from germinated seedlings.
I've also used Barrier H which is supposed to kill the whole plant and still had rosettes springing up, so plants sprouting from remaining roots by pulling isn't the whole story. In my experience once you have seeded plants you have to work hard to eradicate it.
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
^ I absolutely agree with this. My paddocks are overrun with ragwort this year. The growing conditions have obviously been perfect for it and I am hand pulling maturing plants in the hope they will not return next year. Last year and the year before I dug up rossettes which have returned with avengeance.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
I have a ragi fork on my trailer and when i drive round depooing , its a good time to spot and i also have the fork with me and the trailer to put them in
http://equinecare-and-control.weebly.com/useful-ideas.html
http://equinecare-and-control.weebly.com/useful-ideas.html
Sophstar
Well-Known Member
It's the complete opposite at our yard...2 of our fields last year were a sea of yellow but this year we have the odd rosette and that's it. The farmer had planned to get the normally worst offending field sprayed but has now decided against it as there is basically nothing to spray
Dab
Well-Known Member
Thats interesting as i have been pulling the few rosettes i find (between 6 to 12) for the last two years and this year so far i have only come across 2 not in the same place as any of the previous finds! I dont spray just dig up, and i've never ever even heard of putting salt into the hole left behind!
I shall be going out into the hay field this week for a thorough look through to double check before cutting - as i always do.
ragwortsense
Member
It is difficult to be certain because, unfortunately, things like the BHS survey are deeply flawed.
All I can point to is the 2002 edition of the Atlas of British & Irish Flora http://www.brc.ac.uk/plantatlas/index.php?q=plant/senecio-jacobaea which says 'The distribution of S. jacobaea is unchanged from the map in the 1962 Atlas'. Before people jump on this being ten years old look at this 2002 Guardian story http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/aug/26/ruralaffairs.science suggesting that it was becoming an epidemic and saying horse deaths were expected to double in one year as a result.
So, at the time people were claiming it was becoming much more widespread, the atlas found no change.
Stinkbomb
Well-Known Member
STILL no idea what this thread is trying to achieve??? CAN ANYONE in plain simple english explain it to me?????