ragwort I have had it with the myths

Let's try again

You claim that Prof Knottenbelt has categorically stated that he has research which proves that 1000 horses die per annum in the UK from Ragwort Toxicity.

Link me to this research. If I don't see it how can I know it ever happened?

The only source I can find for the figures is NOT research, and is clearly explained as an ESTIMATE and that figures MAY reach a certain level. This is not a myth; this is an opinion.

Dr Derek Knottenbelt of the Liverpool University Veterinary School estimates that around 500 horses and ponies died of liver failure due to ragwort poisoning last year. With the increasingly widespread distribution of the plant, he suggests that this year the total number of equine deaths from ragwort poisoning may reach 1000. This is possibly an underestimate of the problem because the signs are not specific and many cases of ragwort poisoning are not diagnosed.
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http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/ragwort1.htm

Is this the cause for your attempts to discredit him?

From Esther's website:

The exact number of victims of Ragwort poisoning is unknown. The symptoms of Ragwort poisoning cannot be distinguished from other liver disorders and poisoning can only be confirmed by means of a post-mortem liver exam. These exams are, however, not common practice, and reliable data on the number of victims are therefore not available. There could be more than hundreds of victims, but there could also be much fewer.
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So Professor Knottenbelt's estimate of 500 could quite easily be correct?

Next point

You claim that the BHS produced a scientific study with erroneous extrapolation of results. Link me to this study, and also the ASA adjudication you repeatedly discuss. If I don't see it how can I know it ever happened? Who carried out the study? Was Professor Knottenbelt even involved or are you trying to implicate him in something he has no involvement with?

From Esther's website:

The only scientifically sound conclusion from this is that in 2002 283 horses presumably died of Ragwort poisoning. It is not known in how many of these cases a post mortem is performed.
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283 possible cases recorded by 4% of all the vets in the UK? Is it honestly conceivable that 4% of vets saw EACH and EVERY case of liver disease?

We will never know the true figures for ragwort toxicity. Heck, we don't even know how many horses there are in the UK! Estimates are all that anyone can do. Deliberate underestimations are not helpful and can be harmful. Do you honestly believe that the 13 or so horse deaths each year in the UK who are directly linked to Ragwort toxicity on pathology are the ONLY deaths in the UK caused by Ragwort?

Third point

The assertion that the toxic chemicals can be absorbed through the skin.

By Pieter Pelser

Report on the Internet by Dr. Knottenbelt (Liverpool University). This veterinarian is quoted on the internet quite a lot, because he stated, during a debate in the House of Commons, that the toxic substance in ragwort can almost certainly be absorbed through the skin. In response to this we contacted Dr. Knottenbelt. Through an email he informed us that there is no scientific proof for his statements. He writes that he himself has suffered liver damage after manually removing ragwort plants. The results of this 'experiment' have not been published and, according to us, are not obtained through a good scientific trial.

Through our research about the sources of the reports on the danger of touching ragwort, we conclude that there is no substantial evidence that there is a health risk for people. The amount of pyrrolizidine alkaloids that might be absorbed through the skin is very low and there is no proof that these alkaloids are being changed into a toxic form
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(Bold added for emphasis)

Lack of proof means something is unproven, not disproven. Nothing more.

Link me to this research. A transcript of his presentation in Parliament would be acceptable. If I don't see it how can I know it ever happened?

As far as I am aware he never claimed that he had carried out an 'experiment' by handling Ragwort, and to me the above is clearly an anecdote, which in itself has no scientific value but can be a useful stimulus to carry out real research. My understanding is that he became unwell after handling the plant, and liver function tests revealed liver damage. Of course he will not publish this, as he realises that anecdotes are NOT data.

Final point

On your previous reply to me you seem to suggest that Professor Knottenbelt has personally been involved in research on rats? Is this correct and can you link me to it please. If I don't see it how can I know it ever happened?

I think you were referring to this study by the 'rats' comment.
Brauchli J., J. Luthy, U. Zweifel & C. Schlatter. 1982. Pyrrolizidine alkaloids from Symphytum officinale L. and their percutaneous absorption in rats. Experientia (Basel) 38: 1085-1087.
Am I correct? Why did you claim that Professor Knottenbelt was directly involved?

rhino said:
What way did he 'prove' they could be passed through skin? Prove, not suggest, as we like facts here, not hearsay, don't we?
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Nick Altena said:
he shaved a rat and used a bearing ointment that is absorbed through the skin
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Or does this research have nothing to do with Professor Knottenbelt directly and in fact was another attempt to obfuscate the discussion and tar the reputation of an eminent scientist?


You are repeatedly making claims, which you are either UNABLE or UNWILLING to show any proof for. Sorry, but for me your arguments are fundamentally flawed and entirely based on deliberate misunderstandings and reliance on hearsay.

Your problems with Professor Knottenbelt seem to stem directly from (a) an estimate of between 500 and 100 horse deaths per annum in the UK due to Ragwort toxicity, and (b) a personal anecdote of an occasion of him handling Ragwort and a subsequent liver function test.

Neither of which you can disprove in any way.
 
misterjay said:
Quite frankly, so what if we're overcautious, it's us doing the work. None of us are complaining too much about having to pull ragwort, we just get out there and do it (gloves or not). There's no hysteria about it, it's just another task to do.

We have a saying in this country; 'better safe than sorry' and where ragwort is concerned, I think we all agree on that. So, why don't you let us get on with our quiet, non hysterical horse care?
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I agree with that.
Better safe than sorry is also a saying here
But the way I think is also.... it is even better to know the real facts about something , than some myths ..... so in this case you can handle the ragwort before it is comming ;)

Right, must don all-in-one space age type suit, breathing apparatus, and obviously, high viz (just in case no one can see me) and go tackle the demon weed :D
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if you are this person I do not recognize you;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KydEWe6gXs

This is just one example of how the danger of ragwort is going to the world....


Beside...
Take a look on this pasture... that's perfect for ragwort.
I don't understand that people put horses in there, unless it's sick or something...
 
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Nick Altena said:
Beside...
Take a look on this pasture... that's perfect for ragwort.
I don't understand that people put horses in there, unless it's sick or something...
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Because we don't have a choice? In my time in the Netherlands I have never strayed far out of Amsterdam, and generally have been in hospital doing training sessions (although I did spark a scare when I was about 5 as I somehow came down with Scarlet Fever on holiday there and the doctor's hadn't seen it before :D) so I don't know how 'rural' you are, or what land prices are.

The 'average' horse owner in the UK keeps horses on rented land, at livery or in what land they can buy 'at home'. Perfect pasture is (a) very rare, and (b) prohibitively expensive. We make do with what we can.

No-one has ever said it is ideal, but the only other option is, well, NOT owning horses at all.

So, say you have just bought 5 acres of land teeming with Ragwort, and your eventual aim is to use it for grazing your horses. What steps would you take to remove the Ragwort? That would be helpful, the rest of the information posted so far is not..
 
"As far as I am aware he never claimed that he had carried out an 'experiment' by handling Ragwort, and to me the above is clearly an anecdote, which in itself has no scientific value but can be a useful stimulus to carry out real research. My understanding is that he became unwell after handling the plant, and liver function tests revealed liver damage. Of course he will not publish this, as he realises that anecdotes are NOT data."


Um, he did publish it actually. I can remember seeing it in a monthly horse magazine article about ragwort (Your Horse is the most likely) some years ago. Paraphrasing it, he said he spent a period of time pulling up ragwort without wearing gloves and noticed some odd symptoms in himself a short while after which he thought MIGHT have been from the toxins entering his body through his skin. He therefore warned people to wear gloves, as precaution. Not a formal published paper, but in print and in the public domain.

As for how many horses die of ragwort poisoning per year , it is a case of how long is a piece of string. Do you really think that the traveller community which is renowned for keeping horses in the most deplorable, litter strewn, overgrazed and weed-infested waste ground are going to ask the vet if they thought it was ragwort poisoning when their animals collapse and die? The vet won't even know about it! The best anyone can do is extrapolate from known cases.


You might as well compare with the risks of not worming your horse. Many horses exposed to a worm burden won't die of it, but some will and horribly so. Horses have parasitic worms in the wild after all. Does that make it wrong to try to prevent problems in the domestic horse?
 
fatpiggy said:
"As far as I am aware he never claimed that he had carried out an 'experiment' by handling Ragwort, and to me the above is clearly an anecdote, which in itself has no scientific value but can be a useful stimulus to carry out real research. My understanding is that he became unwell after handling the plant, and liver function tests revealed liver damage. Of course he will not publish this, as he realises that anecdotes are NOT data."


Um, he did publish it actually. I can remember seeing it in a monthly horse magazine article about ragwort (Your Horse is the most likely) some years ago. Paraphrasing it, he said he spent a period of time pulling up ragwort without wearing gloves and noticed some odd symptoms in himself a short while after which he thought MIGHT have been from the toxins entering his body through his skin. He therefore warned people to wear gloves, as precaution. Not a formal published paper, but in print and in the public domain.
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Thank you, I was hoping that Nick and Esther would point me in the direction of their source of information, but they seem somewhat reluctant ;)

Even professors are allowed opinions. 'May' 'Might' 'Possibly' are all nice opinion words, but are scientifically meaningless. Has he ever claimed to have proof for transfer of toxic chemicals from Ragwort through skin? If not then I personally don't see the problem, it comes across as something that would merit further study though, as even Nick and Esther are unable to disprove it.

In the absence of proof either way, I don't see his advice to wear gloves as scaremongering, I would want to know that something was NOT dangerous before I would be happy to handle it :)

Repeatedly Nick and Esther have been discussing scientific study and my focus was on published scientific studies, sorry if I did not make that clear :) I must admit, I do tend to lump the horsey comics in with the Daily Mail in terms of accuracy of reporting :cool:
 
Regarding the 'ragwort video', I've never taken such measures when pulling ragwort and I don't know anyone who does.

When spraying toxic herbicides as shown in the video it may well be a recommendation to wear protective clothing.:rolleyes:

I'd rather err on the side of caution where ragwort is concerned, not through hysteria or inaccuracies, but because I value my horse and would rather not take the risk, whether exaggerated or not.

Pregnant women were once told that an anti sickness drug called thalidamide was safe to take, and look how that turned out.
 
Nick Altena said:
exactly what part do you not understand and find dangerous statement ?



Yes, someone mentioned that earlier, and that just amazes me even more that no eyes have opened here on the statements of the man that I should not call...

When so intelligent as you say...I think as perhaps less intelligent person...
They then must know from the beginning that it is nonses this PA is comming to you're hands and then distroy you're liver....

There is a lot more wrong in the information you get in England... but by this one i expect you .... as an intelligent person ... had to ask your self questions about this persons " proven fact" how the hell he prove that?

You also know as a intelligent person with intrest in the subject...there is still NO methode to prove that only the ragwort has causes the liver damage , unless you give youre horse a overdose and/or only ragwort

You also has to know as such a intelligent person that there have been no 6000 dead horses specifically for this study (looking at the cost)



I did not notice that in most of the reactions...
The most reactions from al those intelligent people here i notice is about the poor english and the announcment to go away.. is that intelligent ?
Is that the way the intelligent writers here teach people in what they think is wrong ?


Again...were exactly is the dangerous part we wrote , qoute it for us so whe understand



Yehhh...that's a verry intelligent answer !! ... oeps sorry... advice....
May i ask ? how old are you exactly ?
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There is an age old saying in England 'better to err on the side of caution' I would far rather exaggerate the dangers, respond with over cation and over reaction, and stand a greater chance of my horse surviving unaffected. I simply would not run the risk of putting a horse in a field without dealing with ragwort, by pulling it up. I am incredibly lucky in that the haylage that I have comes from fields that I see on a daily basis, and has no ragwort in them, but this is not possible for most horse owners here, my partner is a farmer and a haylage supplier.

With regards to 'leaching into skin' I personally don't care whether that is fact or myth, the plant IS toxic, and I find gloves easier to use when pulling up ragwort than bare hands, I then burn the godawful stuff... catterpillars and all :rolleyes:

No scientific or non scientific study is 100% conclusive, surely you should know that?! Thats why when writing conclusions reseachers use words like 'probability' Therefore you can not state anything as a 'fact' as a result of your studies, you can say that there is a strong probability that you are right, and that is merely your claim. I must have missed your credentials somewhere, all the scientific research that you have carried out, the degrees that you hold and the universities that you are affiliated with... tell me, did you ever get a journal willing to publish your findings? The plant IS however toxic, the horse IS NOT a sheep and the norses liver IS NOT able to deal with the toxin.

To advise people to fertilise their grazing, have an over abundance of lush grass and leave the plants in the field IS DANGEROUS, If this approach were to be adopted here, you would be dealing with a significant increase in laminitis and related conditions, I for one would not trust my absolutely stupid young horse to not try to eat ragwort no matter how dire it tasted... he is a moron, you would also have a number of individuals trying to save money from cutting their own hay, with the ragwort left in, as you know, it is hard to pull up all the plants especially when the field is knee high in grass, you will miss some and they will get into the hay, be dried and be far more toxic and dangerous.

With regards to the figure of 6000 horses, if you have an overall population of 1000 horses, during the year 100 horses die, as part of your research you conduct a post mortem on 10 of the horses that died that year, 1 of them has liver damage attributed to ragwort poisoning, then you can draw the conclusion that there is a significant probability that 10% of all the horse fatalities that year were as a result of ragwort poisoning, thus you would state that on average 10 horse deaths a year are a result of this sodding weed. Its a very simplified example and there are many variations of this approach, but it is a valid and recognised approach in such studies.

I would far rather over react to this plant than lead a laid back 'alternative' approach and trust the safety of my horses to a bunch of bugs, whilst risking laminitis.

At the end of the day, I am perfectly happy with my approach, I have no ragwort where I am, but I would adopt the age old time honoured tradition of over reaction. I have heard what you have to say, I have processed it, considered it, and filed it in a draw for my amusement value. You continue with your crusade, but I suspect you will just find everyone on this forum ignorant, narrow minded, block heads who refuse to see the light:rolleyes:


I am 31... and 9 1/2 months:rolleyes:
 
I posted this earlier but it got a bit buried with all arguing.

All bull aside though there is a lot a scaremongering about Ragwort like this little Gem that's often repeated:

A horse can get ragwort poisoning without actually having any plants in their paddock! Seeds/spores from plants in neighboring fields can blow over and contaminate a paddock apparently free from plants. A horse can eat or inhale these - and cumulative poisoning can begin.



lazybee said:
I have to say one thing about Ragwort. When I moved to France I was told by quite a few people Ragwort doesn't grow in France, so when I found it growing in my fields I thought I'd take some to our Vets (the biggest in the area) for confirmation. At the vet we consulted the official French guide to toxic plants and confirmed it was Senecio jacobaea; which states 'a horse will have to eat between 5 and 25% of body weight to cause damage or death'. Ragwort is only designated as medium risk; with many more plants higher up the scale. I can't believe there's so much difference in the the stance between two countries.

I still pull it when I see though and as I cut my own hay, I make sure there's none in my bales. Old habits die hard.
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Nick Altena said:
I tink Esther is giveing you a lot answers on youre questions tomorrow.
But i have a few for you reading this post.



Do you know HOW he get his numbers ?


Agian... do you know how he get his numbers ?



Nobody say its not posible.... but not in the way HE did it prove that its passed tough the skin (but that's maybe incorrectly described by me because the languageproblem)
But on the other site...
Do you know HOW the PA's work in the body ?



Correct...
I hope you also have see that same kind of info about a personal attack on members on this site ?

To the point:
I don't write thing's that I am not sure of .... there is evidence
It's mentioned before... mail the person just like we did....and ask him your self.
(we say this because it is also not allowed to place (parts of) privat mail on the internet, but you know that also of course )

Its also not a personal vendatta , somebody is trying to tell you and the other people here about the things that do not fit because it was based on wrong research... and yes ... in thase case.....the man who did that wrong research this Proff
He also did good research, we know !! but not tis one.
But this is one you and many other people believe also... because its comming from... ?



Qoute me were one of us say you must stop doing this...
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PMSL... Nick my dear, those are not answers to rhinos questions, they are questions:rolleyes:

examples (what you have done)
Rhino: what is your name?
Nick: what is your name?

(what you should have done... answer)
Rhino: What is your name?
Nick: Nick.

You could follow this with an optional question for example 'My name is Nick. What is your name?' but that is not necessary :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
I always wear gloves when ragwort pulling - they give you better grip and protection against blisters, plus the sap stinks and the smell is resistant to soap and water. As good a reason as any I would say.
 
Nick Altena said:
But i'm not agree this one
Do you know what stressed grass is ?
I think...its better to put a laminitic horse only a very limited time at 6 cm grass and the rest of the day in a paddock with good quality hay.
Stressed grass is not good for laminitic animals....so i dont think (know/have learned) that it is not ideal for youre horses
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A horse that is put into a starvation paddock even with hay, which should not be good quality, it should be soaked to get the goodness out of it in laminitics, will gorge on the 6cm grass, eating as much in an hour as it does in a longer period, if left in the field, it will continuously graze, but with limited time it will panic eat, stuffing its face. people here know about stressed grass, that is why they turn their laminitic ponies/horses out at night when the sugar content is lower. No one in their right mind, would use the approach you have described.:eek:
 
New theory to consider - maybe our dutch friends have developed a new treatment for laminitis & are trying to maximise the market!
What will I do - carry on pulling ragwort the minute I see it in their paddock & keep on feeding them short grass along with plenty of work to keep the weight down. And quite frankly I don't see why it is anybody elses business if I chose to spend my time doing that as long as my horses are the right weight & not suffering.
I have had a horse die of suspected ragwort poisoning. We had only had him on loan for a few weeks & in my equine specialist Vet's opinion a mild infection was enough to push his body over the edge. I never, ever want to see a horse drop from a condition score 3 to a 1 in less than a week & so I will continue to obliterate ragwort whenever I see it in their field. I also don't want to see my very good doer cobs get laminitis, so lush sward is a no no. My "hysteria" is based on personal experience & the needs of the type of horses I own & absolutely nothing to do with Prof K at all. Even if you managed to prove that he was an evil shape changing alien planning to take over the earth in league with the daleks, I would still manage the ragwort I find in my horses field in the same way.
 
Guys...stop...enough!! I know what to do!

I've had enough of all this..so am off to go & find some ragwort & make it feel loved and talk nicely to it..clearly we are missing the big point ..and are not treating it as we would like to be treated which is why it HAS to resort to poisoning our animals...so surely if we are nice to it then it will feel happy & spread nothing but love...I hear they come out easier roots & all if you tickle their tummies then they just jump out of the ground!

look out for the new heart shaped flower heads that blow kisses at you!
Peace,love & liver transplants
much love

Dr Who
 
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