ragwort I have had it with the myths

rhino said:
Let's try again

You claim that Prof Knottenbelt has categorically stated that he has research which proves that 1000 horses die per annum in the UK from Ragwort Toxicity.
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Now... i did not say thát figure of 1000, I am sure because i know he claimt much more than 1000 (but the fiure he claimt exchanged by different asking person ...

He said or wrote (i'm not sure at this moment) for example the following to the Yorkshire Post last !! year , literally a piece of quote:

"In my own practice, more than 10 per year out of a hospital population of 2,500, there are approximately one million horses in the UK -. The maths is easy."

Attention... he said this LAST year.... again !!... en yes... several people have ask him how he get this figures years ago !! and then, years ago... he admit it was not a correct figure ???
Why repeating them again years later ??
What is the reason of this ? dos he need or getting something for this misleading ? is my thouth when i see things like this (and let me tell you.. thats not only by this proffessor before you think so)

Back to what he claimt:

Yeh, ... we can also count, but something like this you can not say to a newspaper , not as a Proffessor without proper substantiated evidence.
Everyone can count ... but that makes the outcome like this one not a truth !

When I calculate...this time it come's around 4000 each year....(by this claim by this newspaper! )

But you know , I know and i think also this proff. know how newspapers react on words and figures like this one from a famous Proffessor....

They do everything to sell a paper more...so lets push up that fgure till aurond 5000.
That is posible...because its also aruond 1 miljon horses... a bit more...or les... what is the differens, it sell more by bigger figures...

Then the concurent newspaper want also sell papers... it hear somthing from sombody who has read the Yorkshire post and is speaking around 5000 till 6000 dead horses with big letters...and the famous name from a proffessor who give info about this subject...

Than it comes on internet, some people take it over and before you know... everybody that have a horse is afraid for this ragwort
Is this number inportant ?
YES it is... you see later...

Looking at the Freedom of Information law...a question was ask
They say in Liverpool University that they have only 18 horses with liverproblems in 5 years .... but those 18 they where not specifik ragwort problems.

Then the other thing were some people her have no trubble with that he claimd:

Because you don't like our forum from the Netherlands... maybe you like this one , it give you info about the poisoning by skin (and a lot more info about ragwort to) :


http://www.ragwortfacts.com/ragwort-humans.html

My last note for now

When sombody come with a claim that scare's a lot of people and have a BIG impact on the horseworld like the claims from Proff. Knottenbelt... and YES that did and still is scaring people an still have a BIG impact !! .... than you have to come with BIG and solid evidence
No matter what your name is, but if your name begin with Proffessor...then that's for sure

End to end this note...
An estimate comming from a famous person like a proffessor Knottebelt who also did very good things.... gives BIG problems...
Not by other proffessors perhaps ... but by the normal people and newspapers it do... everyone (and not only in the UK) says then that it is the truth ...becourse a famous proffessor told so....
Look around on the internet , preferably in several languages , and you must see this fact also...
 
rhino said:
Because we don't have a choice?
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You always have a choice

This is one of them...

No-one has ever said it is ideal, but the only other option is, well, NOT owning horses at all.
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In the Netherlands we say... when you don't have a pool.... you can't keep fish

When i see the problems of ragwort in the UK and then see how the horses be kept....

So, say you have just bought 5 acres of land teeming with Ragwort, and your eventual aim is to use it for grazing your horses. What steps would you take to remove the Ragwort? That would be helpful, the rest of the information posted so far is not..
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First off all i dont want to buy that land, but with no other choise ?
spray or put manure on it til its death , removal of the top layer or transfer enough seedless ground so the residual seeds can't growe and sow grass for your horse...

But before i have good land.... i don't want to have a horse...
if you buy an animal that depends on you ... than you must provide what it needs before it comes
That's MY way of thinking....
 
fatpiggy said:
I always wear gloves when ragwort pulling - they give you better grip and protection against blisters, plus the sap stinks and the smell is resistant to soap and water. As good a reason as any I would say.
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i agree, you can wear them for this reasons and and if you have allergic to ragwort.
But then you have to wear it for much more plants with the same PA's (around 6000 different species)

The only point I wanted to make is you do not need to wear gloves by pulling ragwort because it is toxic through your skin, because that's an myth
 
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touchstone said:
I'm another that hasn't had ragwort regrow after pulling, even at the rosette stage. I do use a trowel/weeder to dig out the rosettes and it seems to work fine :)
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I cannot see how a root cutting from a juvenile plant can be successful whereas one from a mature plant is not.A root cutting is a root cutting.:rolleyes:
 
EAST KENT said:
I cannot see how a root cutting from a juvenile plant can be successful whereas one from a mature plant is not.A root cutting is a root cutting.:rolleyes:
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protrude from rosettes is better because it's not as deeply rooted
But you still must be dig wide and deep enough

It's (in my opinion) just stupid to wait 2 years to bloom because then he is much more deeply rooted so greater risk of root residue remain when pulling out with hand or "special" ragfork.(the effect is the same with use of a ragfork, whe test that)

also ... if people here believe that all horses eat the plant then why wait until flowering?
Especially when you see the fields as in that video which normally appears to be under present here because there's nothing better
 
This has to be one of the most bizzare thread I have read!

Once again Alec provided one of the most rational responses on the thread:

Alec Swan said:
As you so rightly say, time to dispel a few myths! ;)

Ragwort;
is poisonous in what ever form.
It is unpalatable when green, and is generally only ingested at times of starvation. Horses can, when hard pressed, develop a liking for it.
Different animals have different tolerance levels. Sheep are high, and horses are low.
For Ragwort to work efficiently and for it to kill a horse, there needs to be a substantial intake, and over an extended period.

There are several ways of ridding land of Ragwort, so we're told, but only two actually work;
The most efficient way is to have a grazing regime, involving sheep. They seem to like the weed and it doesn't like them!
Ragwort is a bi-annual. The rosettes which grow this year will become plants next year.
Spraying works, but the timing is vital, and so are the chemicals used. MCPA and Agent 24 D with a decent glueing agent, Rhino for instance, are the best method, and they need to be applied annually, until the plants have gone.
There is a very real danger with spraying, and horses. When the plant starts to die, the stage when it's turning yellow, it puts up heavy sugar deposits in an effort to save itself, and becomes very attractive to equines. The plant needs to be thoroughly dead and rotted before horses are turned out.
Pulling Ragwort is a waist of time, in that if the plants are large and strong enough, the root segments left behind, will themselves, turn into plants.

The liver is a curious organ, in that when half of it is removed, for the purpose of donation, for instance, it recovers within about 6 weeks. When the liver becomes diseased, Ragwort, Liver Fluke, or booze in humans, it takes many years to recover, if at all.

The other major influence over the prolificacy of Ragwort, is that the plant loves arid or very close cropped ground, exactly the type of ground on which horses are generally kept. It doesn't like competing with a dense grass sward, which is rarely offered to horses.

Alec.
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OP I have read the whole thread, all links you have provided and a fair wack of the references referred to and I'm afraid I can't see your point in starting this thread.

I tried to be open minded but your posts here and links do suggest a vendetta against Prof Knottenbelt.
He made some claims based on limited data and carefully used 'estimate' and 'aproximate' before all of them as far as I can find. In scientific parlance(language) these clearly indicate a belief of the researcher but are unsubstantiated. If he was professing them as fact I would expect to see the word 'significant' in the sentence. Significant suggesting the statistical result of a trial or examination of data.
He would by no means be the first person to make cautios estimates based on limited data, scientist in all fields do it daily and it is one way of promoting further research.
It by no means creates grounds on which to publically and broadly attemt to discredit their research.

The main consencus from the references you, and others, posted is that plants of the genus Senacio (Ragwort, Fireweed etc) are toxic to most stock. They are hard to eradicate and prevention is better than cure, where possible. The main form of prevention being removal or 'cure' from areas where it does grow. And different stratergies will work better in different areas.
None of which contradicts current understaning either here or in the UK.

There is no hard evidence to say that Ragwort does or does not casue liver damage or other health problems through skin contact. So people adopt the precautionary principal and choose to use gloves when handling the plant.
Untill someone did the reseach the broad environmental concequences of the use of DDT were 'suspected' and 'estimated'.

------------

On sheep and ragwort - Merinos and Merino x Dorper will graze ragwort (or the local species Fireweed (Senacio madagascencis)) when it is green and a have the some of the high capacity (among sheep) to deal with the toxins, and in some parts are a suggested control measure. However it is also recommended that they not be grazed on infested pastures for more than 3 years as the likelihood of the suffering serious liver damage increases.

Oh one control method not regularly mentioned is 'a 10 year drought' ;) ...ok ok so nothing else grows but a least you dont have any Ragwort ;)
 
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EAST KENT said:
I cannot see how a root cutting from a juvenile plant can be successful whereas one from a mature plant is not.A root cutting is a root cutting.:rolleyes:
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I suspect it is true of weeds as well as grass that the first growth is much more vigorous than older growth, which is why farmers reseed their forage crops on a 3 or 5 year rotation. It strikes me that a root from an immature plants will therefore be far more likely to take than one from a mature plant, as it is likely to contain far more plant growth hormones.
 
Festive_Felicitations said:
This has to be one of the most bizzare thread I have read!

Once again Alec provided one of the most rational responses on the thread:



-----------

OP I have read the whole thread, all links you have provided and a fair wack of the references referred to and I'm afraid I can't see your point in starting this thread.

I tried to be open minded but your posts here and links do suggest a vendetta against Prof Knottenbelt.
He made some claims based on limited data and carefully used 'estimate' and 'aproximate' before all of them as far as I can find. In scientific parlance(language) these clearly indicate a belief of the researcher but are unsubstantiated. If he was professing them as fact I would expect to see the word 'significant' in the sentence. Significant suggesting the statistical result of a trial or examination of data.
He would by no means be the first person to make cautios estimates based on limited data, scientist in all fields do it daily and it is one way of promoting further research.
It by no means creates grounds on which to publically and broadly attemt to discredit their research.

The main consencus from the references you, and others, posted is that plants of the genus Senacio (Ragwort, Fireweed etc) are toxic to most stock. They are hard to eradicate and prevention is better than cure, where possible. The main form of prevention being removal or 'cure' from areas where it does grow. And different stratergies will work better in different areas.
None of which contradicts current understaning either here or in the UK.

There is no hard evidence to say that Ragwort does or does not casue liver damage or other health problems through skin contact. So people adopt the precautionary principal and choose to use gloves when handling the plant.
Untill someone did the reseach the broad environmental concequences of the use of DDT were 'suspected' and 'estimated'.

------------

On sheep and ragwort - Merinos and Merino x Dorper will graze ragwort (or the local species Fireweed (Senacio madagascencis)) when it is green and a have the some of the high capacity (among sheep) to deal with the toxins, and in some parts are a suggested control measure. However it is also recommended that they not be grazed on infested pastures for more than 3 years as the likelihood of the suffering serious liver damage increases.

Oh one control method not regularly mentioned is 'a 10 year drought' ;) ...ok ok so nothing else grows but a least you dont have any Ragwort ;)
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Be careful, they will be targetting Oz next and filling up your forums with this fanatical claptrap!
 
*wanders in to see if ANY questions have been answered and ANY evidence provided for the claims*


Apparently not

Oh, wait, yes I shouldn't keep horses, even though I have never had a problem with ensuring they don't have access to ragwort as I am able to deal with it effectively.

*wanders back out, finding it slightly sad that a thread which purported to be about FACTS has failed to provide anything that anyone didn't already know, but instead made some very spurious claims which cannot be backed up*
 
Seems anyone can get a web page and be an expert on the internet these days.

Fact, truth and knowledge not necessary. Someone will believe you if you keep shouting long and hard enough.
 
touchstone said:
Ithink someone's been on it ;)
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Yep, it's perfectly legal to 'expand your mind' over there, but not, it seems, your vocabulary.

Nobody talks in a high-pitched voice in our local Starbucks, that's for sure.

Wonder if I could download that clip from Blazing Saddles?
 
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