ragwort I have had it with the myths

It is doubly also, they claim horses eat fresh, but then wait until , into season two before it is removed, though it is no risk?
poisounous is in all the parts of the plants, that apparently escapes the folks!

I see myself not twenty years pulling trailers full of ragwort, I would be there again for probably blonde. O so completely naturalized apparently just your horse in a pasture containing ragwort to let go and then when they only shoot something in bloom, seems so much more sense to first create a safe pasture and then a horse in it, you can’t put a goldfish in a dry bowl and put water in when you have time.

Now thought that the horse to the English truth their liver already destroy through to walk in and to sniff or very serious in to roll, dangerous stuff, but oh, two years later once the hands sleeves and masks and just draw. why ignorant!
 
cptrayes said:
Esther have you been on the advocaat?
Click to expand...

No I don't eat lawyers ;-)
Advocaat is a drink here ( made from eggs) but also laywer.

But I am very busy now, with the stallions and education about ragwort, and I won't waste my time anymore at a children's classroom who believes and repeat what they are told for years by press. Good luck with your pasture and your horses.

Maybe it is still interesting we have , and now it is European law: ragwort free hay! Use that info. Go to a lawyer when you have ragwort in hay. Then you can go to an advocaat!
 
EstherHegt said:
It is doubly also, they claim horses eat fresh, but then wait until , into season two before it is removed, though it is no risk?
poisounous is in all the parts of the plants, that apparently escapes the folks!

I see myself not twenty years pulling trailers full of ragwort, I would be there again for probably blonde. O so completely naturalized apparently just your horse in a pasture containing ragwort to let go and then when they only shoot something in bloom, seems so much more sense to first create a safe pasture and then a horse in it, you can’t put a goldfish in a dry bowl and put water in when you have time.

Now thought that the horse to the English truth their liver already destroy through to walk in and to sniff or very serious in to roll, dangerous stuff, but oh, two years later once the hands sleeves and masks and just draw. why ignorant!
Click to expand...


I will write this slowly ! We do not put our horses in fields with ragwort , we kill the ragwort first by whatever means we prefer . Stop twisting the words of posters , we are not interested in your opinions because we know what we are doing .
 
EstherHegt said:
No I don't eat lawyers ;-)
Advocaat is a drink here ( made from eggs) but also laywer.
Click to expand...

Yes, I knew that thankyou.

EstherHegt said:
Good luck with your pasture and your horses.
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Thankyou again but I do not need your luck. I have easily maintained and horse safe, ragwort free, wildflower meadow.

EstherHegt said:
Go to a lawyer when you have ragwort in hay.
Click to expand...

I don't need one. I buy ragwort free forage that I see growing in the field before it is cut.



Esther I am sorry to disabuse you, but you are not the only person in the world who knows how to manage horse pasture. We do not need any of the "advice" that you have seen fit to give us on this thread. And we certainly don't need your insults. I hope you are now too busy to post any more.
 
cptrayes said:
Can you tell me - have you or someone close to you ever had a horse treated by Professor Knottenbelt or by Leahurst Hospital, and, if so, did that horse survive?
Click to expand...


Esther can you please answer this question for me, that I asked several pages ago and you may have missed?
 
cptrayes said:
Esther can you please answer this question for me, that I asked several pages ago and you may have missed?
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In the literature there are horses described that survided, sorry I missed you question.
Some of the literature is open and public, realise that there are a lot of plants containing PA's. The link before in my last post is written by world wide leading experts from EU.

There are horses who do survive. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1476261/ Not all the literature is public, this one is.
It is nice to see in that report the mistake about wind dispersal, most seeds drop near the plant, but I understand ( maybe wrong English word) that a vet is not a bioloog.

Defra reports you can visit to check it by yourself. http://www.aht.org.uk/cms-display/disease_surveillance.html
Look at the 2004 that was a special abour liver disease http://www.aht.org.uk/skins/Default/pdfs/equine_pilot.pdf and follow that.
 
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Dolcé;10808964 said:
Thank goodness for that, please take your mate with you!

F_F, she is on her way to an OZ forum and it is all your fault for admitting you have ragwort over there!!!
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Oh I hope she is, I really hope she is - it will be brilliant! :D ;)

Do you think suggesting a forum would be taking it too far? :cool:
 
Festive_Felicitations said:
Oh I hope she is, I really hope she is - it will be brilliant! :D ;)

Do you think suggesting a forum would be taking it too far? :cool:
Click to expand...

LOL, I was considering posting earlier to say I'd spent the afternoon pulling out ragwort, ( while wearing gloves :eek: ) from my horses paddock.
YO is a meanie and wouldn't let me set fire to it :mad::)
If I see the OP on one of the forums here with their nonsense, I'll know who to blame :D
Kx
 
Esther I find it hard to believe after everything else that you have written that your English is so poor that you did not understand my question. Will you answer it please? Third time of asking.


Can you tell me - have you or someone close to you ever had a horse treated by Professor Knottenbelt or by Leahurst Hospital (edit - for any reason), and, if so, did that horse survive?
Click to expand...
 
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Festive_Felicitations said:
There is no hard evidence to say that Ragwort does or does not casue liver damage or other health problems through skin contact.
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Yes there is.
The PA's in this plant is not a special one.
There are around 6000 plants that have the same PA's
These PA's shout pas your digestion / stomach to be poison and damage you're liver.

And thát's simply not possible when comming in you're body by your skin...



------------

On sheep and ragwort - Merinos and Merino x Dorper will graze ragwort (or the local species Fireweed (Senacio madagascencis)) when it is green and a have the some of the high capacity (among sheep) to deal with the toxins, and in some parts are a suggested control measure.

However it is also recommended that they not be grazed on infested pastures for more than 3 years as the likelihood of the suffering serious liver damage increases.
Click to expand...

Yehhh..that's also a way in order to get rid of Ragwort...
But is this the way whe , horse-owners , think ?.
Sacrifice the sheeps ...to save the horses....

Oh one control method not regularly mentioned is 'a 10 year drought' ;) ...ok ok so nothing else grows but a least you dont have any Ragwort ;)
Click to expand...

Don't look good to me... the seeds will survive and love the first drop of rain...

but because this answers come from a Dutchman, I think that in your eyes al i wrote is nonsens again
 
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cptrayes said:
Esther can you please answer this question for me, that I asked several pages ago and you may have missed?
Click to expand...

I answer it for Esther

No... and why should we ?
We are not crazy even though I get the impression you here on this forum think so.
We do not send a horse with "ragwort" poisoning to the UK for various reasons.
1:
By the time it becomes visible, the horse is already well sick and you do not turn on a trip to the UK
2:
Additionally useless ... because as I wrote earlier ... there is no test that can specifically indicate that a liver problem of ragwort comes!
3:
We have also verry good specialist in the Netherlands about ragwort and there problemes.
4:
She has no horse with "ragwort" problems.

So tell me one good reason why we would do send a sick horse so far if we have one.
 
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As far as I can make out you believe there are only 2 choices -

1)have "perfect" pasture & own horses, even though the pasture that you describe would probably kill many of our cobs & native ponies through laminitis.

2) Don't have horses.

The thing is there is a 3rd choice - have less than "perfect" pasture, pull the ragwort & own horses.


i really cannot see why you are getting so excited about choice 3. It is absolutely none of your business. And as I said before even if you managed to prove that Prof Knottenbelt is an evil shapeshifting alien it makes NO difference at all. It is completely irrelevant - we know that ragwort is poisonous to horses, that is why we pull it & if anyone chooses to wear gloves that is their business & not yours.
 
Nick Altena said:
I answer it for Esther

No... and why should we ?
We are not crazy even though I get the impression you here on this forum think so.
We do not send a horse with "ragwort" poisoning to the UK for various reasons.
.
Click to expand...

Nick I'm sorry but your English is not good enough to engage in a debate of this seriousness on a foreign language forum, where you are routinely insulting the British people by poor use of our language without even realising it.

My question had nothing to do with ragwort poisoning whatsoever.

I admire how much English you know, it is more than I know of any other language, but you really need a better grasp of our language if you expect to be able to come on one of our forums and lecture us in the way that you have and not have it taken as badly as it has been.


Nick Altena said:
The PA's in this plant is not a special one.
There are around 6000 plants that have the same PA's
These PA's shout pas your digestion / stomach to be poison and damage you're liver.

And thát's simply not possible when comming in you're body by your skin...
Click to expand...


You are also no scientist if you think that knowing one way how a poison works means that it cannot possibly work in any other way. You have to disprove the other way before you can say that it cannot happen. Until then, it may well be possible, you just don't know about it.
 
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LittleWildOne said:
If I eat Sheep liver, and that sheep has eaten (tonnes of) ragwort, will I get ragwort poisoning ? :D
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Generally our lambs are killed by the time that they're 6 months, and it would be unlikely that they would have eaten enough of the weed, by that time.

Does a functioning liver have the capacity to actually store the poison? I've never thought about it, to be honest!

Alec.
 
cptrayes said:
Nick I'm sorry but your English is not good enough to engage in a debate of this seriousness on a foreign language forum, where you are routinely insulting the British people by poor use of our language without even realising it.
Click to expand...

pfffff...again the complain about my English ??

I ask different people i know in England if my English writing here is realy that poor that you can't read or understand it, as several say on this forum.
They tolt me... as they are realy that intelligent as they say... they can read AND understand what i am writing.
The question is more if you will....

My question had nothing to do with ragwort poisoning whatsoever.
Click to expand...

You did not appointed ANY desease , BUT...we are writing in a line about ragwort.... so its explicable that i answer in this form.

No problem for me...tell me then why i schould send a horse from the Netherlands to England, to that professor or hospital , with any disease or healthy ?

I admire how much English you know, it is more than I know of any other language, but you really need a better grasp of our language if you expect to be able to come on one of our forums and lecture us in the way that you have and not have it taken as badly as it has been.
Click to expand...

Again
There was no line in the rules when i register here that say i must can write perfect English.
Make it a closed forum than you don't have this problem anymore....

You are ,by the way , welkom on every Dutch forum, despite you don't speak Dutch you can write in English and get your answers without any comment....even if you tried in Dutch ;)


You are also no scientist if you think that knowing one way how a poison works means that it cannot possibly work in any other way. You have to disprove the other way before you can say that it cannot happen. Until then, it may well be possible, you just don't know about it.
Click to expand...

I am not scientis and I have also written nowhere that I am
There a other people with much much more knowledge who investigate this.
But i can search and read , combinate and learn....

Some References :

(1)Brauchli J., J. Luthy, U. Zweifel & C. Schlatter. 1982. Pyrrolizidine alkaloids from Symphytum officinale L. and their percutaneous absorption in rats. Experientia (Basel) 38: 1085-1087.
(2) Gordon, L. A. 1999. Compositae dermatitis. Australas. J. Dermatol. 40: 123-128.
(3) Warshaw, E. M. & K. A Zug. 1996. Sesquiterpene lactone allergy. Am. J. Contact. Dermat. 7: 1-23


I quote from a English site for you that used that reference:

Concern has been expressed in some quarters of the risk of handling Ragwort. The concern being that the toxins could be absorbed through the skin and poisoning occur. However, alkaloids which are absorbed through the skin are in the N-Oxide form having not passed through the digestive system(1) and are therefore non-toxic. These are excreted from the system within 24-48 hours (1)

You can read it here :
http://www.ragwortfacts.com/ragwort-humans.html
 
As siennamum said - what is your point?
I've read this right through a couple of times (I've got a poorly knee & am bored) and, other than as I summarised is my last post, I can't see what you are getting at. You keep coming back on here repeating the same things as if we are stubbornly refusing to see your point but we cannot for the life of us work out what your actual problem is.
So can you give us your recommendations in single sentence bullet points please. No links to other sites, papers etc because then we have to try & work out what it is you want us to pick up on - just plain straight forward facts & recommendations.
Because as far as I can make out you think that unless I can keep my horses is lush, thick grass I should get rid of them. As lush, thick grass is
1) not available to anybody around here
2) would give them laminitis
the alternative would be shooting them. Is that what you think I should do?
 
LittleWildOne said:
If I eat Sheep liver, and that sheep has eaten (tonnes of) ragwort, will I get ragwort poisoning ? :D
Click to expand...

^^^^^THIS^^^^^ Was posted for a laugh :D.
I just wondered what our ragwort fanatics would say in reply :D
Can't believe Nick actually hunted down and posted a link which was specific to my "question" :D
I enjoy eating lamb, liver included, although chicken liver tastes MUCH better ;).
Nick and Esther, none of us can really understand what exactly you are trying to say :confused:.
Everything you are telling us (from repeated links to other sites :rolleyes:), we already KNOW.
We are NOT hysterical about ragwort. We KNOW about the risks, but also have to take into account the type of grazing which is SAFE for our equines.
The risk of LAMINITIS is very high in the UK, so our grazing HAS to be managed with this as a priority. Lush, well fertilized, weed free, 5-6cm grass is NOT SAFE to graze our horses on, neither is stressed grass.
Your only point appears to be your personal vendetta against Professor Knottenbelt. Please go and "look up" the laws concerning libel and defamation of character before you make stataments about a world reknowned Professor.
This is a PUBLIC forum which ANYONE can access. Anyone "googling" Professor Knottenbelt (including himself) will be able to open a direct link to this thread, and read your defamatory remarks with their own eyes :rolleyes:.
p.s. We don't need the trillion links to information on ragwort :rolleyes:
Please go away and annoy someone else :rolleyes:.
 
Nick Altena said:
pfffff...again the complain about my English ??

I ask different people i know in England if my English writing here is realy that poor that you can't read or understand it, as several say on this forum.
They tolt me... as they are realy that intelligent as they say... they can read AND understand what i am writing.
The question is more if you will....
Click to expand...

And yet again, because you do not know the nuances of colloquial English you have insulted me by suggesting that I am wilfully refusing to accept what you are writing.

This is not the case, Nick. I understand what you are saying and I disagree with you.

Your English is good but it is not good enough to come onto an English language forum and tell people that they are not managing their horses or grazing properly, without routinely - unknowingly - insulting the native speakers.

It is excusable when it is unknowing, but I have now told you several times that you are insulting me and other people by your lack of full understanding of our language and yet you persist in doing it. That, I'm afraid, is just sheer bad manners.

Regarding your invitation to post on a Dutch site I can tell you that even if I was fluent in the language I would not dream of doing as you have done and posting on a foreign site lecturing people in another country how they should behave both emotionally and with regard to how they manage their pasture and keep their horses. It is downright rude that you have done it and that you persist in doing it.
 
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hairycob said:
As siennamum said - what is your point?
I've read this right through a couple of times (I've got a poorly knee & am bored) and, other than as I summarised is my last post, I can't see what you are getting at. You keep coming back on here repeating the same things as if we are stubbornly refusing to see your point but we cannot for the life of us work out what your actual problem is.
So can you give us your recommendations in single sentence bullet points please. No links to other sites, papers etc because then we have to try & work out what it is you want us to pick up on - just plain straight forward facts & recommendations.
Because as far as I can make out you think that unless I can keep my horses is lush, thick grass I should get rid of them. As lush, thick grass is
1) not available to anybody around here
2) would give them laminitis
the alternative would be shooting them. Is that what you think I should do?
Click to expand...

This, x 1000......:-D

Please understand that we do understand the points you are trying to make, we just dont agree with them and also believe you are focusing on how to make pasture ragwort free without considering the other risks that the pasture you advocate brings to horses in the UK.
 
No one likes being put to shame.

Here in the UK at this time of year we go up hill and down dale to the point of exhaustion, in search of Senecio Vulgaris L.

If they can't be bothered to put in some graft - even though The Netherlands is as flat as a pancake - then the least they could do is to stop coming up with lame excuses for their - dare I say it - laziness:p
 
EstherHegt said:
S vulgaris = groundsel
Before ragwort was called Senecio Jacobaea, after DNA research the new name is Jacobaea vulgaris.
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Ragwort Poisoning - pyrrolizidine alkaloidal poisoning - seneciosis.
The senecio genera of plants is one of the largest. Not all species are poisonous but the 'common ragwort', senecio jocobea and 'groundsel', S. vulgaris ARE. The less common are the March and Oxford Ragworts.

This information is taken from The BHS Veterinary Manual - P. Stewart Hastie MRCVS

A rose by any other name?
 
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