ragwort I have had it with the myths

LittleWildOne said:
^^^^^THIS^^^^^ Was posted for a laugh :D.
I just wondered what our ragwort fanatics would say in reply :D
Can't believe Nick actually hunted down and posted a link which was specific to my "question" :D
Click to expand...


I was raised in this way.
When people ask questions, I answer, no mather how difficult this is for me , like on this forum ...in English.

Despite that someone writes that most of the people here are so intelligent and other people write here that you know already everything, there are still a lot of questions I perceive ;)
 
LittleWildOne said:
The risk of LAMINITIS is very high in the UK, so our grazing HAS to be managed with this as a priority. Lush, well fertilized, weed free, 5-6cm grass is NOT SAFE to graze our horses on, neither is stressed grass.
Click to expand...

May i ask what kind of grass is "normal" / regular in the UK for horses ?
 
Fellewell said:
Ragwort Poisoning - pyrrolizidine alkaloidal poisoning - seneciosis.
The senecio genera of plants is one of the largest. Not all species are poisonous but the 'common ragwort', senecio jocobea and 'groundsel', S. vulgaris ARE. The less common are the March and Oxford Ragworts.

This information is taken from The BHS Veterinary Manual - P. Stewart Hastie MRCVS

A rose by any other name?
Click to expand...

It is correct you tell dat all Jacobaea species have PA's who grow in and Europe. But also a lot of other plants, 6000 worldwide. Good you did some search about it!!! One of my co authors does a lot of research especially about this plants http://pieterpelser.blogspot.nl/
He is also a reference in the EFSA report about PA's.
 
Nick Altena said:
I was raised in this way.
When people ask questions, I answer, no mather how difficult this is for me , like on this forum ...in English.

Despite that someone writes that most of the people here are so intelligent and other people write here that you know already everything, there are still a lot of questions I perceive ;)
Click to expand...

Well then perhaps you can answer some of the questions you have so far ignored, for example:

Originally Posted by hairycob View Post
As siennamum said - what is your point?
I've read this right through a couple of times (I've got a poorly knee & am bored) and, other than as I summarised is my last post, I can't see what you are getting at. You keep coming back on here repeating the same things as if we are stubbornly refusing to see your point but we cannot for the life of us work out what your actual problem is.
So can you give us your recommendations in single sentence bullet points please. No links to other sites, papers etc because then we have to try & work out what it is you want us to pick up on - just plain straight forward facts & recommendations.
Because as far as I can make out you think that unless I can keep my horses is lush, thick grass I should get rid of them. As lush, thick grass is
1) not available to anybody around here
2) would give them laminitis
the alternative would be shooting them. Is that what you think I should do?
 
siennamum said:
Well then perhaps you can answer some of the questions you have so far ignored, for example:

what is your point?
Click to expand...

The point is in the OP. The solution for the ragwortproblem is in good care for the pasture, Not in believing myths. There are a lot of good sources about ragwort, there are a lot of world wide experts. They know the plant, they did a lot of research and they have the solution, that is pasture management. In UK they believe one source, a prof who could has ask collegae, could go to the literature, that exists worldwide. I already gave the EFSA report, European Food Safety Authority. 2007. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on contaminants in the food chain on a request from the European Commission
related to Pyrrolizidine alkaloids as undesirable substances in animal feed. The EFSA Journal 447: 1-51.

In that rapport the experts are, look at the references and the literature. Then make your own opinion. Look always to the primary source, Can they proove it, are there other scientists who controlled it.

I can understand people are confused, the papers repeated year after year wrong figures. Wrong methods to get rid of it in the pasture.
 
EstherHegt said:
The point is in the OP. The solution for the ragwortproblem is in good care for the pasture, Not in believing myths. There are a lot of good sources about ragwort, there are a lot of world wide experts. They know the plant, they did a lot of research and they have the solution, that is pasture management. In UK they believe one source, a prof who could has ask collegae, could go to the literature, that exists worldwide. I already gave the EFSA report, European Food Safety Authority. 2007. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on contaminants in the food chain on a request from the European Commission
related to Pyrrolizidine alkaloids as undesirable substances in animal feed. The EFSA Journal 447: 1-51.

In that rapport the experts are, look at the references and the literature. Then make your own opinion. Look always to the primary source, Can they proove it, are there other scientists who controlled it.

I can understand people are confused, the papers repeated year after year wrong figures. Wrong methods to get rid of it in the pasture.
Click to expand...



I don't think anybody is confused by the scientific papers, but by your apparent mission to proclaim how terrible the UK's pasture management is! And that a weed that you admit is poisonous actually isn't that poisonous:confused:

I think my method of removing ragwort has been pretty successful. When I first took on the land I pulled barrowloads of the stuff out, clearing an area at a time and of course it was cleared before putting the horse on. In time all I get now is the odd rosette springing up. Calcified seaweed was added in the first year or so.

Manure is cleared twice daily, sheep graze the excess grass and gently fertilise as they go, injurous weeds are removed and my horse can enjoy 24/7 turnout instead of being stuck in a stable to avoid the rich over fertilised grass (or well managed, dense sward) that could potentially kill her.
 
EstherHegt said:
The point is in the OP. The solution for the ragwortproblem is in good care for the pasture, Not in believing myths. There are a lot of good sources about ragwort, there are a lot of world wide experts. They know the plant, they did a lot of research and they have the solution, that is pasture management. In UK they believe one source, a prof who could has ask collegae, could go to the literature, that exists worldwide. I already gave the EFSA report, European Food Safety Authority. 2007. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on contaminants in the food chain on a request from the European Commission
related to Pyrrolizidine alkaloids as undesirable substances in animal feed. The EFSA Journal 447: 1-51.

In that rapport the experts are, look at the references and the literature. Then make your own opinion. Look always to the primary source, Can they proove it, are there other scientists who controlled it.

I can understand people are confused, the papers repeated year after year wrong figures. Wrong methods to get rid of it in the pasture.
Click to expand...

Ester, in the UK good pasture management is to remove noxious & prolific weeds. On government advice; this includes Ragwort. It gets removed by responsible people who find it on their land.

What is the problem in us people in the UK in following direct official advice? :confused:
 
I would like to know what the OP has a problem with, our terrible pastures that we do not look after or the fact that we are killing this poor plant to extinction? I have only read part of this post as it is so long and a lot of it makes very little sense to me but what is the harm in pulling this plant if we want to. I too have a Welsh cob and a Welsh cob/TB who would not benefit from a 'good pasture', they would both be obese and totally depressed if they were only allowed out for short periods of time to stop them gorging themselves on rich pasture. I never fertilize as it would be to rich for them so I have to pull the weeds and plants I do not want, that way I have two happy horses who live out 24/7 summer and winter only coming in in extreme wet or if there is snow on the ground or if it is very hot. They are happy, I am happy to PULL RAGWORT so there!:D
 
Please answer my question in the simple format I have asked for. Referring back to the OP is pointless as it is perfectly apparent from the responses that you are getting that you have not explained yourselves clearly.
The Brits are quite rightly criticised for thinking that repeating themsleves loudly & slowly will make themselves understood abroad & quite frankly that is what you are doing here. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the reason you can't get your argument across is because you are wrong?
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
Ester, in the UK good pasture management is to remove noxious & prolific weeds. On government advice; this includes Ragwort. It gets removed by responsible people who find it on their land.

What is the problem in us people in the UK in following direct official advice? :confused:
Click to expand...


AHH now is see the problem of the confusion. When you have ragwort at the pasture, you have to responsible and remove it, but it is much better to do that with good pasture manegament than to be afraid. In UK is not a law you have to remove it everywehere. A responsible horse owner, and I think there are a lot in UK, make a good management plan, with good management you can solve the problem without fear. There are not 6500 dead horses a year in England a year. Horses don't like ragwort, if they eat it, then they are starvibg to death, or it is in hay. Now we have a European law, food has to be safe. The problem is still in UK a lot of people don't know how to get rid of ragwort in their pasture, that is the point. Seeds don't blow miles away, seeds need a good place to germinate, then is it the question for that seeds if the ground is suitable to make a big population of ragwort. When I look in the English magazines en papers, I see always bad managed pasture. Bad managed pasture is suitable for ragwort. ( but also for laminitis and grass sickness!)
 
Last edited:
cptrayes said:
And yet again, because you do not know the nuances of colloquial English you have insulted me by suggesting that I am wilfully refusing to accept what you are writing.

This is not the case, Nick. I understand what you are saying and I disagree with you.
Click to expand...

That's great, at least ONE is understand what i am saying... perhaps you can explain it to the others ?

I am sorry when i have insulted you personaly by suggesting you are not wilfully accept what i am writing.
But read this line again and then maiby you understand better why and what i'm writing....

A lot of you have comment about my English... you where just one of them with that comment...
So it was not personal to you but for all in this tread that have comment about my English.
It seems it was not that bad as they here say it is ....


Another important point which I think many misunderstand me:

Its not that you or any other person on this forum MUST accept what i am writing.

I only hope there are some people here thinking about whát we write , reading the info whát we give in the links.... and think it over.

And than i hope they can make the decision independently for their own, if that which tells to you all these years in the United Kingdom....is right or wrong.

But WHEN you read al the info, you find out that a lot of the info in England about ragwort is nót correct and that there IS arise panic by this incorrect info. (comming from... i can't help thát !! He did some verry good work...i know.... but not this one and he personaly himself admitted that.)

my thoughts... the proff. , the media and all the sellers from ragwort stuff like the ragwort fork... brought scary stories for a simple reason
Its not a story for your horse or child or you're own life ...its all about the money they earn with it.
It has nothing to do with the reality....a lot of there story's are myths... no facts....

but no worries ... I leave you .... for the time being ...
Think what ever you want of us... but think for your self , think, read and learn.

That's all.....and thank you for patience and your hospitality ;)
(yes, I meant that very deliberately cryptic for some of you )
 
I'm not panicked, I think for myself and read articles which still say that ragwort is poisonous, I remove ragwort and look after my pasture.

As I've said before, short, possibly stressed grass is better for my horse as she can't consume the quantity she would be able to with dense long grazing.
 
misterjay said:
Can you tell us what your pasture management routine is like in Holland, please? Are most of your horses out all the time? And do you have a problem with laminitis?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Laminitis is a world wide problem. What we do is horsesw ho are prone to laminitis ( I have one a horse with PPID , before they called it Cushing) limit their grazing, and we choose warm season grasses. A very good grass website about the fructan problem is the website safer grass from Kathy Watts.
This is also a very good website about that problem, these researches are very nice and wil help you also with questions. http://www.ahf-laminitis.org/ and they have videos about the laminitis problems.

PS I have Icelandic horses, they are always outside.
 
Last edited:
So to summarise

1) Ragwort is poisonous.
2) If you have it in your pasture you should get rid of it.
3) Ragwort is less likely to spread where there is a lush, thick sward.

So nothing the vast majority of us did not know already. And to be frank, the people who don't remove ragwort from their pasture are unlikely to be coming on this forum.

So what is it you are getting your knickers in a twist about?

And will you please just say what you think & not just continually refer to links. If you have a recommendation state it clearly & succinctly & back up with a link to support if necessary. In the UK people find it ill mannered to just say if you want to know what to do read this.
 
Last edited:
EstherHegt said:
We never told ragwort is not poisonous. We don't like the myths.
Click to expand...

And we don't like your myths that we panic about ragwort and that we do not know how to manage it in our own pastures.

The UK is not full of grazing like you see in magazine articles about ragwort Esther, they pick those photos for shock value.

You are completely incorrect in your advice that ragwort will not grow in dense grass sward in Britain, by the way.

If the farmers around your hay fields have a lot of ragwort uncontrolled then no matter how dense your hay crop ragwort can and does grow in it.

I watch my neighbours pull ragwort from their hay fields every year before cutting and it is reseeded in different places by their neighbours to grow the the next year. Their hayfields are established meadows with a very dense sward of a large variety of grasses.
 
Last edited:
cptrayes said:
And we don't like your myths that we panic about ragwort and that we do not know how to manage it in our own pastures.

The UK is not full of grazing like you see in magazine articles Esther, they pick those photos for shock value.
Click to expand...

This is very true. UK media, especially horse magazines, go overboard on ragwort. Most of us just carry on as we have been - no panic, no fear.
 
EstherHegt said:
The myths Watson, the myths.
Click to expand...

As cptrayes says: we do not panic about ragwort here.

We KNOW how to cope with it.

I honestly feel sad that you're wasting so much time and energy on a problem which doesn't exist, except in your (and Nick's) head!

How about focussing your attention on something that really matters, where you could make a difference? You're obviously someone who campaigns with a passion, so why not do the same for live horse transport for slaughter, or something similar?
 
Last edited:
EstherHegt,

Did you mean to be that rude & patronising? Because that is what you & you colleague are. You obviously have no idea how people in the UK look after thier horses & even if occasionally we are less than perfect I'm sure there are many things that we could criticise about the way horses are kept in Holland. Except we are too polite. My next door neighbour has a Dutch horse - it was clearly rapped before it was imported, maybe on the basis of that I should go on a Dutch forum & tell you the proper way to teach horses to jump. But no, because I have the common sense to realise that not all Dutch horses are trained that way. The same way that you should have the sense to realise that a photo showing how horses should not be kept does not mean that the majority horses over here are kept that way. In the UK we like to have room for our horses to move about & that is why we limit the calorific value of grazing by using poorer pasture & go to the effort of removing ragwort.
 
EstherHegt said:
I hope you all also have done with the myths and are going to the press and tell them!
Click to expand...

No, I wouldnt think anyone here will be going to the press about it, since we arent hysterical enough to bother.
You feel free to, though, since youre clearly quite hysterical about it all.
 
Anyone going over to the Netherlands, do take a good look at pasture management as a whole.
We regularly go over - and tho much is lovely (think of going through Lambourn just for example) there is also weed infested land too - badly managed and unkempt.

Ester m'dear, go & find something/somewhere where your links & postings may be read with interest.

There will always be someone/somewhere that does their 'own thing' & not conform to the ideal. On this forum I feel you really are muddying waters and findng yourself in too deep.
 
How strange Esther that you present yourself as educated and are rather patronising about the ignorance of people in the UK BUT you haven't made any effort to educate yourself about the way British people keep their horses. That hasn't stopped you roundly denouncing us, which is fairly bigoted and ignorant to be honest.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top