ragwort I have had it with the myths

Okay, so, I did a bit of snooping around on t'internet last night.
This thread was started on 6th June 2012. BY COINCIDENCE, if you take a peek at "Buglife - The Invertebrate Conservation Trust " website, guess what their "June - Bug Of The Month " is ?
DrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrUMROLLLLLLLLLLL !

It's the CINNABAR MOTH !!!!! :D

So, it appears that our Dutch "friends" have an agenda. They are trying to brainwash us with their DICTORIAL (adjective for a dictator ;)) posts into NOT pulling ragwort !

Why ?

Because they are BUNNY HUGGERS of the INSECT WORLD :D:D:D.

I actually found a thread on one forum where Esther actually stated that she LOVES ragwort. (That thread was LOCKED by a mod after 12 pages ;)).

So now people, we know EXACTLY why Esther and friends are posting AT us in the manner they do ;).

It is THEY who are HYSTERICAL, because they are scared that all of their little creepy crawlies are being put in danger by us PULLING OUR RAGWORT :D.
 
L_W_O,

that's an interesting post of yours, including the usage explanation of the English language. ;):D

The reliance upon a food supply, for any living creature, would be an indicator as to its population, I would have thought. The odd thing is, that thanks to our (with the exception of this year) recent decade of near droughted summer conditions, we have had a massive expansion in our Ragwort densities, but we haven't had a similar expansion in the occurrence of the caterpillars of the Cinnabar Moth. As a small boy, I remember just about every plant being covered in the caterpillars, but over the last 5 years, and the countless thousands of plants which I've viewed, I don't suppose that I've seen any more than half a dozen plants which are supporting caterpillars. Odd that, because you'd think that with such an abundant food supply, the moth population would thrive; apparently not, but I don't know why.

The moth concerned is not entirely reliant upon the ragwort plant, but others of the genus Senecio, so even if we managed to eradicate the evil plant, the moth would still survive. In the 1950s our Rook population nested, almost exclusively in our European Elms, along came "Dutch Elm Disease" (something else which we can thank them for), and the cry went up, "Where will our rooks nest"? The reality is that they found alternative lodgings, as will the Cinnabar moth.

Alec.
 
LWO how sad are we that we care :d ?

Alec - the answer might be:

What eats the eggs, caterpillars or adult moths?

Plenty of food, few caterpillars = more predators?

I'm not sure my life is quite so empty as to make me bother to find out :)


ps your post reminds me of sitting yelling "you idiots!" at the TV as an "expert" described how it would be perfectly safe to introduce a bug into this country that lives exclusively on Japanese knotweed. He confidently stated that tests had proved that it would die out when it had exhausted supplies of knotweed. I hope to goodness no-one takes him up on it!
 
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http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/f...ty-trouble-over-publicity-over-ragwort-2.html


If anyone wants to read, so they had a hidden agenda after all, why couldnt they be honest and say they were concerned about the decline of the Cinnabar Moth.

I agree with Alex , the Cinnabar Moth has been declining for years even though there has been an upsurge in Ragwort, I suspect its decline is because of another factor that these people have not considered.

Iam more concerned with the decline of the glo worm as I havnt seen one for years.
 
Thanks Alec :D

cptrayes, I don't think we actually DO care as such. I think the fact we are replying to this ridiculous thread is because the Dutch posters are making claims that we are being hysterical, and that we don't care or know how to maintain OUR grazing. These people are posting in a similar manner all over the internet, and have even mentioned THIS thread.
I don't know what it is, but every time I log on, I check to see if anymore has been added to this thread. My reaction every time is OMG, FFS ! Is this nonsense STILL going ? But then, I just can't help myself and HAVE to read it :D.
Am I correct in thinking though that the Cinnabar moth (and caterpillars) HAVE NO PREDATORS ? (Whispers " Oh S**t, THEY will reply again with yet more links to PROVE they know best :rolleyes: :D).

Dobiegirl, I didn't see that thread when I checked on WAB. I logged in (member - I enjoy birdwatching :o), then did a search for "ragwort".
I found this thread http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/f...ts-and-tree-forums/14973-ragwort-illegal.html amongst others. (Esther appears about halfway through). :)
 
I can remember pulling the stalks of ragwort plants consumned by these caterpillars when I was a child I wonder what really happened to them all ?
 
LittleWildOne said:
So, it appears that our Dutch "friends" have an agenda. They are trying to brainwash us with their DICTORIAL (adjective for a dictator ;)) posts into NOT pulling ragwort !
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I don't know, I think their agenda is multifaceted, and part of the vendetta seems to be with this very forum. HHO is mentioned an unbelievable number times on the ragwort hysteria blog (yes, with all of its 9 members :D). Still, it makes a nice change from the ASA ruling, which seems to make up the vast majority of the other posts. What have we constantly been told, if you say something often enough people will believe it? Or is it just a case of there being very little else worth mentioning, so the same 2 or 3 points are repeated ad nauseum. Hysterical much?

Nice try though!

Since we seem to be lacking in 'facts' on this thread, here is some information that may or may not be helpful. If anyone has anything extra or that succeeds it please post!

Weeds act 1959

Natural England: Enforcing the Weeds Act 1959

Natural England Weeds Act 1959 Complaint form

Defra code of practice on how to prevent the spread of ragwort (has an identification key for some of the related species)

Ragwort Trust (set up to help fund research into an early test for ragwort poisoning)

Farmer type people - any help with recognising the Ragwort plant or other poisonous species in forage? Any tips you could give?

Any information on how the ragwort free hay system was set up in the Netherlands?
 
pootleperkin said:
Rhino, I noticed the blog has only 9 members! So much effort for such a large audience......one of whom is our friend Nick.
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Small group but they're rather vocal! Just been looking at RagwortFacts' twitter account - bless him he's managed 40 or so followers on there!

And yes, HHO gets a mention there too :D
http://twitter.com/#!/ragwortfacts
 
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Nick Altena said:
A strange way of reacting here....Why do you still believe what ONE proffessor is saying about this plant... and do you not believe a lot of other proffessors , named on the refference list we have given ?
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I believe what my vet (and thousands of others in the UK - and other places) says . . . and I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'm pretty sure I'm not depriving my horse by not letting him eat ragwort.

P
 
Nick Altena said:
Why do you still believe what ONE proffessor is saying about this plant... and do you not believe a lot of other proffessors , named on the refference list we have given ?
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Maybe because this ONE professor is one of the most skilled and dedicated Veterinary Surgeons in the UK, who is internationally recognised for his research and treatment - not just of horses affected by ragwort, but also sarcoids, EMS and any number of other conditions! When you've dealt with Professor Derek Knottenbelt for more than 15 years and he has successfully treated and cured a number of horses with challenging and serious conditions in that time - as I have - then of COURSE I'm going to believe him over some totally unknown (to me) professors from another country!

What I can't understand is why you people are sticking your nose in the UK's business with regards to the way we manage our horses, our pasture and our ragwort! :rolleyes: We don't tell YOU how to stick your finger in a dyke!
 
*quietly opens a book with self to take bets on whether Alec will be able to resist a comment when/if he reads the last line of JG's post... :D*
 
I'm not sure: trouble is, if we shout the odds and the 'runners and riders' on this thread, it rather gives the game away to Mr Swan... :D
 
EstherHegt said:
I did answer questions, We gave links with the answer, but didn't answer speculations. There was one question I refused to answer, that was about the dead of my horse with liverfailure, every dead from liverfailure is very nasty.
I gave a lot of reference to scientific literature, I gave the link to the FOI and the cases at Liverpool university. There where NO cases.
The problem in this discussion is, somebody got angry, other readers repeat that anger or fear and didn't look what whe wrote.
In my OP I also told a bit how we solved the problem in the Netherlands and did a suggestion how you can do that also. And I can tell some more, we did really went to the government, I think in UK it is called house of commons. We did asked them to help for ragwort free hay, it is European law now. We also got a lot of help from experts from different university's and the EU panel did investigation about the ragwort problem on facts. The EU panel are specialits and worlwide leading authority's in toxicology. We didn't told anybody ragwort isn't poisonous, we did told not every method is good if you want your pasture free of ragwort. Angry people, and people who are afraid can't believe that.
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The death of your horse is entirely relevant to this discussion.
You volunteered this information in your first post and your somewhat emotional response to my question belies the scientific bias you claim to have towards research on this subject.
Is this crusade of yours driven by some misplaced guilt on your part because of the death, from liver failure, of your six year old mare?
Is this an attempt to somehow exonerate yourself from blame in a very public way?
All I can say is that if blood test/biopsy results on your mare were inconclusive then you really have no right to come on here and lecture us on pasture management. Get your own house in order first.
 
Fellewell said:
Is this crusade of yours driven by some misplaced guilt on your part because of the death, from liver failure, of your six year old mare?
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I've been guessing the same Fellewell. My guess is that there was some live ragwort in Esther's grazing when her mare died. And in order to tell herself that she was not to blame for that death, she has blamed her hay and crusaded to have hay certificated in her country (which is very laudable) and also to persuade the world that live ragwort in grazing is not unsafe unless the horse has no grass and eats it from starvation.

Either that, or she genuinely does love the cinnabar moth.
 
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Does anyone think hay certification would actually be any use? It does not really guarantee you that there is no ragwort at all in your hay, it just means that if you can prove your horse suffered from ragwort poisoning from certificated hay you could sue the seller. That proof would be almost impossible to obtain.

In this country we have two ways of obtaining guaranteed ragwort free hay - see it growing just before it is cut, if late cut, or in ragwort flowering season the year before. This is what I do.

Buy bagged commercial forage grown specifically for horses. Extremely unlikely to contain ragwort, but very expensive.

Would many people buy "certificated" hay if it cost more? With the huge proportion of people in this country who keep their horses in a livery stable and have to feed the forage with which they are provided, would it make much of a real difference in this country?

Is this some thing we should try to set up in this country, or not?
 
cptrayes said:
Does anyone think hay certification would actually be any use? It does not really guarantee you that there is no ragwort at all in your hay, it just means that if you can prove your horse suffered from ragwort poisoning from certificated hay you could sue the seller. That proof would be almost impossible to obtain.

Is this some thing we should try to set up in this country, or not?
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Having looked into it, I don't think so. It is already illegal to sell food for animals which contains the toxic alkaloids found in ragwort, so it is surely a case of better identification and strict penalties for anyone caught selling it.

Feeding Stuffs (Scotland) Regulations 2000

Feeding Stuffs (England) Regulations 2005
 
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Intresting Rhino. So we already have more than the protection that Esther has set up in Holland, but we didn't realise it (or I didn't anyway). Thanks for that.
 
cptrayes said:
I've been guessing the same Fellewell. My guess is that there was some live ragwort in Esther's grazing when her mare died. And in order to tell herself that she was not to blame for that death, she has blamed her hay and crusaded to have hay certificated in her country (which is very laudable) and also to persuade the world that live ragwort in grazing is not unsafe unless the horse has no grass and eats it from starvation.

Either that, or she genuinely does love the cinnabar moth.
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Whatever it is I'm getting tired of trying to read her mind, not to mention all the spurious 'evidence'.
 
Sorry to add to this, but i keep coming back to this thread to find out what its all about, ie what it is exactly about and after fifty pages, i still have no idea what they want us to do, that we arent already? :o Am i just being thick?:confused:
 
jakkibag said:
Sorry to add to this, but i keep coming back to this thread to find out what its all about, ie what it is exactly about and after fifty pages, i still have no idea what they want us to do, that we arent already? :o Am i just being thick?:confused:
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Sorry to tell you you're just being thick :p Join the 'thickos' bench with the rest of us :cool:

Actually, in order to investigate HHO's hysteria involving ragwort poisoning, I did a little search earlier. In the last 3 months, and over 20000 threads, ragwort poisoning has been mentioned 10 times.

Now parelli, rugging, or keeping horses barefoot would be a different story :p

I'm thinking that none of them actually understand what the word 'hysteria' means anyway :confused: :rolleyes:
 
jakkibag said:
Sorry to add to this, but i keep coming back to this thread to find out what its all about, ie what it is exactly about and after fifty pages, i still have no idea what they want us to do, that we arent already? :o Am i just being thick?:confused:
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I think and I may be wrong they want us to use our paddocks as ragwort sancutarys , and I think the might like us to do something nasty to poor professor Knottenbent.
 
Goldenstar said:
I think and I may be wrong they want us to use our paddocks as ragwort sancutarys , and I think the might like us to do something nasty to poor professor Knottenbent.
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We don't need to turn our paddocks into ragwort sancturies....The Highways department have already done that with the motorways.
 
Lord knows why, I suppose it's an alternative to self flagellation, but I'm still trying to make some sense of what is going on here.

From Esther's site

1) Paragraph 4.1.1 in a report from the World Health Organization in 1988 (4).

Which can be found here and states:

Brauchli et al. (1982) compared the
oral and percutaneous absorption in rats of a crude alkaloid
mixture obtained from comfrey. A dose of 194 mg/kg was
either given by gavage, or was applied to the shaved skin and left
for 44 h. After the dermal application, the excreted N-oxides in
urine (up to 48 h) amounted to 0.1 - 0.4% of the dose. After oral
dosage the excreted level of N-oxides and alkaloid bases was quoted
as being 20 - 50 times greater.

Regarding absorption of pyrrolizidine alkaloids through the skin this report refers to an article written by Brauchli and colleagues (5).

A summary of which is found here and states:

The percutaneous absorption of these alkaloids was investigated in rats, using a crude alcoholic extract of the plant corresponding to a dose of 194 mg alkaloid-N-oxides/kg b.wt. The excretion of N-oxides in the urine during 2 days was in the range of 0.1–0.4% of the dose. The dermally absorbed N-oxides are not or only to a small extent converted to the free alkaloids in the organism. The oral application led to a 20–50 times higher excretion of N-oxides and free alkaloids in the urine.

Note the 'or only to a small extent'

These scientists state that toxicological research on rats has proved that the pyrrolizidine alkaloids from the roots of comfrey (Symphytum officinale, Borganinaceae) can be absorbed through the skin. However, the amount of absorbed pyrrolizidine alkaloids appears to be much lower than when they where administered orally. The amount of pyrrolizidine alkaloids found in the urine of the rats was 20 to 50 times less than was measured when it was given orally. As long as the plant has not been eaten the pyrrolizidine alkaloids are in a N-oxide form and are not poisonous. How do you make that decisive conclusion with the caveat added to the above 'or only to a small extent' When the plant is eaten they are transformed, mostly in the small intestine, into free alkaloids that are poisonous and that will damage the liver. The treatise of Brauchli and colleagues (1984) Which is where? It is not apparent upon literature search, and really demonstrates the lack of coherency of referencing on your site states that pyrrolizidine alkaloids that are absorbed through the skin are rarely, if ever, transformed into free alkaloids. We have not been able to find any more recent scientific studies on this subject.

So how did you get from this, to the following?

Through our research about the sources of the reports on the danger of touching ragwort, we conclude that there is no substantial evidence that there is a health risk for people. The amount of pyrrolizidine alkaloids that might be absorbed through the skin is very low and there is no proof that these alkaloids are being changed into a toxic form.
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Where is your research then? Why is it not included in your references? :confused: Surely if there had been any studies which back up your opinion, you would be happy to list them on your site? Haven't there been any further studies?

This is such a non event, scientifically :confused: One study, carried out in 1982 on a few rats...
 
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