RANT. Pink and fluffy would be Parelli- ites should not be allowed to ...

well yeah I feel that too but if I'd put extreme haters to Parelli all the traditionalists would hound me for not including the other way round! Oh bugger it I've said it now :D;)
 
Alfie&Milo said:
well yeah I feel that too but if I'd put extreme haters to Parelli all the traditionalists would hound me for not including the other way round! Oh bugger it I've said it now :D;)
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Why do you think Parellism incites such a reaction ? I would not call myself a 'traditionalist', like many posters on here, I use all sorts of techniques that work for my horses.
However, Parelli disturbs me, at worst, it downright cruel. I accept that there must be good horsemen out there who use Parelli but I have not met one that is even vaguely competent. That is why I have little respect for those who use it as a training method. The Parelli horses I've encountered are disturbed ones. I am open to having my mind changed, but so far I haven't come across one in person. They must be hiding somewhere.
 
I do think it is a shame that there seems to be so much hate. I think though that the Parelli's are largely to blame in this. They have been caught practicing some very cruel looking methods on camera, so who knows what they do off camera! I think there is a lot of good in Parelli if it is practiced compassionately and skillfully, but for the Parelli's themselves to practice methods that look cruel, even to their followers, is just plain stupid. In addition, the cost of their products is astronomical. I know people who have spent tens of thousands on their products and courses. This makes me angry.

I use a parelli rope halter and long line on any horse that is difficult to handle, and find it far better than a chiffney, and some of their methods to get horses out of your space and to desensitize horses, are excellent, so I don't think it's all bad.

But it is a great shame that people jump on others that practice Parelli and assume they are all cruel. If done correctly no horse should be hit in the face with the rope clasp, nor hit with a carrot stick. Like anything else, these things only happen if they are practiced unskillfully by people who are clueless about training horses.
 
Wagtail said:
I do think it is a shame that there seems to be so much hate. I think though that the Parelli's are largely to blame in this. They have been caught practicing some very cruel looking methods on camera, so who knows what they do off camera! I think there is a lot of good in Parelli if it is practiced compassionately and skillfully, but for the Parelli's themselves to practice methods that look cruel, even to their followers, is just plain stupid. In addition, the cost of their products is astronomical. I know people who have spent tens of thousands on their products and courses. This makes me angry.

I use a parelli rope halter and long line on any horse that is difficult to handle, and find it far better than a chiffney, and some of their methods to get horses out of your space and to desensitize horses, are excellent, so I don't think it's all bad.

But it is a great shame that people jump on others that practice Parelli and assume they are all cruel. If done correctly no horse should be hit in the face with the rope clasp, nor hit with a carrot stick. Like anything else, these things only happen if they are practiced unskillfully by people who are clueless about training horses.
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I think this is pretty spot on.
 
horserider said:
Why do you think Parellism incites such a reaction ? I would not call myself a 'traditionalist', like many posters on here, I use all sorts of techniques that work for my horses.
However, Parelli disturbs me, at worst, it downright cruel. I accept that there must be good horsemen out there who use Parelli but I have not met one that is even vaguely competent. That is why I have little respect for those who use it as a training method. The Parelli horses I've encountered are disturbed ones. I am open to having my mind changed, but so far I haven't come across one in person. They must be hiding somewhere.
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My sisters horses are full of beans and very happy and confident. They are barefoot, rugless and Parelli trained.

I am not a Parelliite myself, far from it, I dislike some of the things such as getting the horse to stand on small platforms etc, but I do think that if done well, it can be a very effective and kind training method.
 
amymay said:
I think that once you understand the principles of how a hackamore or bitted bridle works, you'll be in a better position to understand how differently they act from a headcollar.
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Well, obviously i know how a english hackamore works. But all bridles work on applying pressure to certain areas of the horse's head. Be it nose, mouth, poll, chin grove. But its all pressure. Thats what i mean. A hackamore acts on the poll and nose, a halter or headcollar acts on the nose.

If you long reined a younster from a bitless, they would learn the same cues for stopping and turning, same as if it was bitted.
 
Shortcut said:
One thing I can't stand in a horse is bad manners and they definatly need to learn from a young age what is wrong and right. Firm but kind is the way I go about with my youngsters.

There is a lady who rides past my yard with a thin rope head collar with the carrot stick thing. I'm not one for gadgets but I don't think its safe riding on the road with just a head collar... I think natural horsemanship is a great way to work with horses and I admire Monty Roberts in the way he has changed people's thoughts on horses. But I think parelli is almost a money making scheme... :S It's so expensive for one of those kits and I don't think playing games and all this "alpha" thing is that productive, although I don't pretend to know anything about parrelli.

If she has asked you to trim the horse she should have it ready for you in the stable! Bit cheeky asking you to trim it then you have to get it in from the field!
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Before i learnt about riding in a halter, i would have thought the same as you. But luckily i have been priveleged to have ridden some very well schooled horses in halters, so perhaps you yourself might change your view if you had this same opportunity? After all, its not the tools we use, its how we use them. If we teach a horse to respond well to a bit, we will have plenty of control. Same for the halter, if the horse is taught to be soft and responsive, you would have plenty of control too.

But i guess, until you ride a well trained bitless horse, you are perfectly intitled to thinking its unsafe.
 
AndySpooner said:
To start a post 'I don't know anything about NH or Parelli, but my opinion is.'

Firstly makes me laugh at the arrogance, and stupidity.

Secondly makes me so disappointed that someone may read and be taken in by a silly post like that.

I am now going out on my barefoot, Parelli trained chestnut mare, which I will ride at all paces in a headcollar and lead rope. We will be covering about ten miles this morning, moorland, lanes, tracks and quite a lot of road work.

Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.
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This does worry me. I have nothing against Parelli, but I do have close friends who have gone down that route with their horses. They too choose to hack on roads with little more than a head collar. Their horses are well trained and 9 times out of 10 behave well, but when it goes wrong it goes very wrong and the total instant loss of control is scary. One of the people in question ended up in hospital after getting trampled on the yard and the other horse is quite capable of shooting off in another direction with the rider out of control. I think in the rocky mountains where there are no roads this is a lovely idea, but on Uk roads the possible consequences are dire, and threatening to other road users. Riding in normal tack is not cruel, just responsible. It would be very interesting to look at how this affects insurance.

I have an ex racer, he was quite nervous when I first got him. I have never used any fancy techniques, never shouted, never smacked and never lost my temper with him. I simply handle and ride him quietly and with the confidence he needs to feel secure in all situations. I now feel there is no situation that could phase us and he is recognised as being one of the quietest, calmest horses on the yard.

OP good luck with your situation. I hope the other owner finds someone capable to show them how to help their horse trust people again. Thank goodness you are such a good yard owner, I'm sure there are people out there who would have reacted far worse :)
 
If someone has taken the time to train their horse in such a way that it can be ridden in just a headcollar, then good on them - I'm sure the horse is very happy with that.

The point is; that's fair enough when it is being ridden on private land where the rider's only responsibilities are to themself and the horse. When riding in public, one has a responsibility to others and, personally, I don't think riding in a headcollar (I'm not talking about a bitless bridle here) fulfills that brief.

If nothing else, us riders get bad enough press from i.e. certain motorists without the perception that a rider is recklessly (and that may just be a perception) ridden in just a headcollar.

We should also be thinking about the message which could be given out to children/less experienced riders who might be tempted to copy this with a horse who isn't so well schooled.
 
Horses can get away from you whatever they have on their head or in their mouths. I have seen friends get into terrible situations while riding in bits, and myself had a cob who could be stopped by nothing if he really decided to leave. It's scarey, but we're dealing with large animals that are perfectly able to take over from us if they really want to. Fortunately, even though they get scared sometimes, the training they get from a young age, and hopefully the trust they develop in their riders, means that we can normally have the last say.
Could riding in a bit, or a strong bit, give some a false sense of security? The good bitless riders I know give a lot of attention to their horses remaining soft and responsive, having good lateral flexion, a good stop and backup. It may be just the people I know, but I don't see the same attention to those details in my friends who ride with bits.
Again I say - this isn't criticism, it's observation.
Anyway, back to work. My plans didn't work out because I got held up on the phone as I was leaving (escaping!) so I only had time for a 10 minute sit on. Er, I worked on flexion and soft backup.
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Oh, and it didn't rain, just dribbled a bit.
 
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just out if curiosity, for those that think a bitted horse is safer than a bitless horse, why? Is it personal experience? Bad experience? Or is it something u have been taught to believe?

Would u be happy to ride a horse in a bit, that has never been ridden in one before, and still feel in control?
 
Jennyharvey said:
just out if curiosity, for those that think a bitted horse is safer than a bitless horse, why? Is it personal experience? Bad experience? Or is it something u have been taught to believe?

Would u be happy to ride a horse in a bit, that has never been ridden in one before, and still feel in control?
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It's not a case of bitted or bitless - but bridle or bridleless. Massive difference.
 
Well, we are back home, unscathed, again. Stayed out longer than anticipated as the sun came out, and I just couldn't bring myself to head for home.

Been quite busy in the thread I notice. Responsibility, that's the key word, or so it seems.
I think it is totally irresponsible for people to cart about in the countryside putting their faith in a bit, or worse a strong bit. When the thing you all fear and the horse has a massive panic, do you really think you can hold it with a bit. Or do you really think , hurting it in the mouth or whipping it will save you. You will make things far worse. Training is the key, training, training and more training.
 
Jennyharvey said:
just out if curiosity, for those that think a bitted horse is safer than a bitless horse, why? Is it personal experience? Bad experience? Or is it something u have been taught to believe?

Would u be happy to ride a horse in a bit, that has never been ridden in one before, and still feel in control?
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Are we talking about riding in a headcollar or a hackamore when referring to bitless ? And when you refer to headcollar, do you mean a regular leather/webbing one or one of those nasty cord, knotted things, often wrongly fitted and very unkind ? (I'd like to chuck everyone on a very large bonfire.)

I'd be happy to ride a horse in a bit that has never been ridden in one before as I've done it several times with youngsters. Every horse has a first time and its not an issue. Correctly used bits are for communication, not torture.

Riding in a regular headcollar does not give as much control or safety as a bridle when riding on roads.
 
CalllyH said:
If it's your paddock tell her to do one. I once saw some parrelli it's trying to teach a horse to load by waving a stick at it. Poor horse looked so con fussed. A good pat on the bum and feed in the trailer would have been better
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ditto someone I knew had a youngster who loaded perfectly until he came back from a Parelli course. Loading after that was a stressed, panicky affair with the horse being encouraged to load by banging the carrot stick on his neck, back and rump. Horse regularly fell of the ramp and now has a problem loading.
 
So Andy if your horse has a major panic and I mean full blown head for the hills we're all going to die bolt, that your head collar will stop him? No? So guess the whole subject is utterly senseless?

Maybe we should all stop riding on the roads in whatever form of tack we decided on because in reality we are never going to be able to stop a hulking great horse from mowing down little girls and old ladies so lets all stop being so irresponsible and stay at home shall we?;)
 
My how things have escalated, old ladies, little girls, mown down all round the place. If you are fearful of riding out don't. If you want to use a bit, use one. I don't, so I won't.
 
AndySpooner said:
My how things have escalated, old ladies, little girls, mown down all round the place. If you are fearful of riding out don't. If you want to use a bit, use one. I don't, so I won't.
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So do you ride on the road in a bitless bridle (Hackamore/Dr.Cooks/Bosal - or whatever is called..or rope halter..) OR a bog-standard headcollar the majority of people use to lead horses and ponies about?

Also, what insurance company do you use if it's just the headcollar or rope halter?
 
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2010/06/03/bhs-clarifies-bitless-bridle-insurance-policy

Interesting reading, especially the bit where it says -

On the issue of insurance cover, Mr Cory said: “As regards your question about the BHS insurance cover, in the event that a rider should ever be called to account for an accident, one can see that s/he might find it difficult to avoid the charge of negligence if it were shown that s/he had chosen to use tack which did not achieve the fullest measure of control. Nevertheless, the £10m of Public Liability cover provided to all Gold Members does not exclude the wearing of bitless bridles, and any indemnity provided by the policy in respect of legal liability to provide compensation (including claimants’ costs and expenses) would operate.”

Not sure how other insurance companies look at it...but one can only assume that if you were on the public highway, and your horse was only wearing a bog-standard headcollar or bit of rope, and your horse bolted, causing an accident, you might end up in serious bother...
 
DragonSlayer said:
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2010/06/03/bhs-clarifies-bitless-bridle-insurance-policy

Interesting reading, especially the bit where it says -

On the issue of insurance cover, Mr Cory said: “As regards your question about the BHS insurance cover, in the event that a rider should ever be called to account for an accident, one can see that s/he might find it difficult to avoid the charge of negligence if it were shown that s/he had chosen to use tack which did not achieve the fullest measure of control. Nevertheless, the £10m of Public Liability cover provided to all Gold Members does not exclude the wearing of bitless bridles, and any indemnity provided by the policy in respect of legal liability to provide compensation (including claimants’ costs and expenses) would operate.”

Not sure how other insurance companies look at it...but one can only assume that if you were on the public highway, and your horse was only wearing a bog-standard headcollar or bit of rope, and your horse bolted, causing an accident, you might end up in serious bother...
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But it wouldn't exclude bitless bridless - because they are just that bridles.

Whereas a headcollar is not a bitless bridle - it is a headcollar.
 
AndySpooner said:
My how things have escalated, old ladies, little girls, mown down all round the place. If you are fearful of riding out don't. If you want to use a bit, use one. I don't, so I won't.
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But you haven't answered my question. Do you think you can hold your horse in a blind bolt with a head collar? You are obvioulsy missing my point, because if you say you can you are a liar..or lucky enough to never have experienced a REAL bolt, and if you say you can't then you've proved my point that nothing is 100% safe so why the whole conversation about bits or no bits?

BTW I'm not fearful of riding out, do it everyday (just don't bleat on and on about it) but I don't pretend I'm riding a perfect animal who's under my control and every wish is his command. :rolleyes:
 
jsr said:
But you haven't answered my question. Do you think you can hold your horse in a blind bolt with a head collar?

BTW I'm not fearful of riding out, do it everyday (just don't bleat on and on about it) but I don't pretend I'm riding a perfect animal who's under my control and every wish is his command. :rolleyes:
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He must be hell of a guy to stop over half a ton of horse if he can....
 
jsr said:
But you haven't answered my question. Do you think you can hold your horse in a blind bolt with a head collar? You are obvioulsy missing my point, because if you say you can you are a liar..or lucky enough to never have experienced a REAL bolt, and if you say you can't then you've proved my point that nothing is 100% safe so why the whole conversation about bits or no bits?

BTW I'm not fearful of riding out, do it everyday (just don't bleat on and on about it) but I don't pretend I'm riding a perfect animal who's under my control and every wish is his command. :rolleyes:
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Unfortunately even the strongest bit wont hold a horse who is genuinely bolting. When a horse bolts putting barbed wire in it's mouth couldn't stop it (not that I've tried).

Have to say though a knotted rope halter does give quiet a lot of control, I rode a strong pony in one once after a recommendation, it didn't suit us (pony hated it) but I had better brakes in the rope halter than in in an english hackamore (r-eschooling fixed all issues and pony now goes happily in an english hackamore, lozenge snaffle or headcollar).
 
Jennyharvey said:
Before i learnt about riding in a halter, i would have thought the same as you. But luckily i have been priveleged to have ridden some very well schooled horses in halters, so perhaps you yourself might change your view if you had this same opportunity? After all, its not the tools we use, its how we use them. If we teach a horse to respond well to a bit, we will have plenty of control. Same for the halter, if the horse is taught to be soft and responsive, you would have plenty of control too.

But i guess, until you ride a well trained bitless horse, you are perfectly intitled to thinking its unsafe.
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I would probably change my view if I did get the opportunity to ride a horse that is trained correctly in a halter. Horses can be unpredictable animals and if your horse decided to really bolt you couldn't stop it bitted or in a head collar. When I had ponies I used to ride a lot bareback with just a head collar but now I have competition horses I wouldn't do the same.
 
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