RANT. Pink and fluffy would be Parelli- ites should not be allowed to ...

[fburton]

p.s. I'm an ex Parelli student and yes, it does work fine when applied properly, but I do think it's a pretty harsh way to go about things.

Was it applied properly by Pat when he roped and twitched Catwalk? Was it applied properly by Linda when she kept clunking and pulling at Barney's head? If those were examples of properly applied Parelli, then then is something wrong with the method, in my opinion.

People keep telling me things have changed. Well, I was at a clinic last weekend where there was a lovely lady with her horse. They are STILL teaching people to smack their horses around the face with the clip in the Yo Yo "game".

That is so depressing to hear.

And it still hurts horses. And there are still better and fairer ways to go about things.

It isn't necessary to hurt or bully horses to train them. When will this message be universally understood. Not in my lifetime, I suspect.

 

[suejs001]

I do agree with the sentiment Tinypony I really do, perhaps I view parelli in a slightly more optimistic way trying to get a phase 1 move and never having to go to phase 4? (especially on a back up) but that is not to say in the right circumstances I wouldn't condone the use of it such as horse goes Right Brain extrovert and needs a short sharp shock to listen again - I think this is better than everyone getting hurt horse and human - however surely this is the exception and not the norm? In my limited parelli experience I have not seen many phase 4's of anything and I have an extreme Left brain extrovert cusp Right Brain Extrovert ... it is all down to body language with the intention of what you mean rather than the actual act?? Isn't that what they try to convey in the one suggest, two ask, don't make me pick up my stick, three ... im telling ya... 4 I promised I would ... (that sounds like my parents when I was a kid and I didn't need telling twice. )

I don't know about Parelli before I started, I don't know if they have sold out, all I know is that for me it has worked for my horse... its not my issue whether people believe in parelli or not, I just get sick of the bullying that is associated with it when someone practices it - I saw PINK!! yesterday because these people don't have the courage to speak to the person and just say it all behind their backs etc etc I am obviously emotive about it because of personal experience. I believe there are flaws with all methodology of training just by its very nature, you can only do what you think is best and right and everyone will take a slightly different slant on the original as with everything... its human nature. Personally I would love to win the Euro millions tonight so I could afford to go and spend a year with KFH in Denmark with my two! How wonderful to be in a bubble for a whole year but at €87,000 its a bit out of my reach for the mo!

Anyway on that cheery note I will get on with some work!

 

[Dancing Queen]

I dont know that much about Parelli - but I do know common sense. I have been around horses for long enough to produce well mannered horses without the need for fancy tools - just respect for the horse, calm and patient manner and common sense.

Is the wheel is still round ?

 

[suejs001]

I don't think it is just horses that are bullied ... I certainly wouldn't say that I bully my horse with the use of the parelli method - if I bullied him he would soon let me know I can assure you! I give him choice and respect to have a 'conversation' with me.
Its a debate as is religion and politics .. however whether you believe it or not, the fact of the matter is that people bully other ppl who practice Parelli end of. No one can argue with that and this thread proves that I think the title says it all ... it is classing all 'parelli-ites' as pink and fluffy and insinuating that we should not have horses??? That is my interpretation but yet again mmmm was it me sorting out a wild mare last night with calm compassion and respect for her and her foal without putting pressure on her and giving her the choice to do the right thing??? I believe parelli gave me the platform to understand horse psychology better ... and I thank them for that.

What ever the argument and debate will continue and you, and only you can know in your own heart if you do the right thing by your horse or not... As Pat Parelli says you take the halter off you know the truth... no strings nothing ... if your horse chooses to stay with you he chooses to stay with you.

Best wishes everyone and apologies again for stirring up the hornets nest...

 

[suejs001]

At my last yard I was bullied and to the point that some kind person stabbed my green ball 4 times with a knife just to make sure I was unable to re-pair it and my experience of this type of behavior over the years has left me a little 'sour' of those who kick off about people who practice this training method...sigh

 

[Golf Girl]

At my last yard I was bullied and to the point that some kind person stabbed my green ball 4 times with a knife just to make sure I was unable to re-pair it and my experience of this type of behavior over the years has left me a little 'sour' of those who kick off about people who practice this training method...sigh

Unbelievable! I guess that is indicative of the mentality of the typical 'Parelli hater' ....

 

[fburton]

At my last yard I was bullied and to the point that some kind person stabbed my green ball 4 times with a knife just to make sure I was unable to re-pair it and my experience of this type of behavior over the years has left me a little 'sour' of those who kick off about people who practice this training method...sigh

No one should be subjected to such nasty treatment. That it happened merely because you were into Parelli is truly appalling.

However, please don't assume that everyone who dislikes aspects of PNH and the Parelli machine, even as strongly as I do, also hates those who practice it. I know several 'Parelli people' who I like and respect. The fact you disagrees with someone else's views shouldn't be a barrier to friendship. I might seek to change people's views through argument and/or by showing alternative approaches, but that's quite normal, isn't it? I wouldn't dream of doing anything as petty and vindictive as what you described.

 

[suejs001]

Thank you fburton I believe in health debate! and I firmly believe that you never stop learning ... I think its nice when friends can support each other despite the different opinions! )

 

[DragonSlayer]

Unbelievable! I guess that is indicative of the mentality of the typical 'Parelli hater' ....

A bit of a generalising statement, don't you think?

I'm not a fan of Parelli, but it doesn't make me a knife-wielding maniac. The person who stabbed the ball has no doubt....other problems, to make them as vicious as that.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I am now going out on my barefoot, Parelli trained chestnut mare, which I will ride at all paces in a headcollar and lead rope. We will be covering about ten miles this morning, moorland, lanes, tracks and quite a lot of road work.

Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.

Be careful of this, it might invalidate your insurance, as it could be considered that you need a saddle and bridle to be "in control", not me, just insurance perception.
I think the "non riding" referred to the fact that many people spend such a lot of time on ground work that they forget the idea was to ride, not to spend ages learning a training technique. I think there are enough examples of "parelli abuse", if one wants to call it that, to put people off this particular system.
From my experience, with youngsters one has to be quick to sort out any "challenge", I spent ages with my [one and only foal] after I managed to get hold of it [six months old!], and it only "had a go" at me twice, the first time I was surprised, it tried the same trick the next day [a wee rear and a flash of teeth], got a skelp on the neck with the rope [no carrot stick involved], and never tried again.

 

[amandap]

No one should be subjected to such nasty treatment. That it happened merely because you were into Parelli is truly appalling.

However, please don't assume that everyone who dislikes aspects of PNH and the Parelli machine, even as strongly as I do, also hates those who practice it.

Disgraceful behaviour but reflects in action what I have observed verbally and in writing by the more zealous of the anti NH lot. Hating the person may not be said to be in the agenda but dismissing, and insulting definitely is...

A general (certainly not applied to fburton) observation that has prompted me to post when I decided to keep off these threads on horse behaviour and training... I find it interesting that trashing an object arouses such emotion when trashing a person or their confidence by derision and insult is accepted or even applauded. Go figure us humans, I can't, no wonder horses have problems with us.

 

[Tinypony]

Oh Mrs D, that invalidating insurance thing has been done many times before. There are plenty of insurance companies that insure people to ride bitless, and long debates have been had about "what is a bridle"? Anyone with any worries can insure themselves with The Good Horsemanship Society (cringe at the name...) and be certain.
Fburton... I think that Linda "clunking" with the clip is Parelli applied as they teach it because it's on a level 1 instructional DVD. Until the Parellis issue some sort of retraction of the phase 1-4 in the Yo Yo "game" then that's how it's done.
I think in the Catwalk incident Pat completely lost his marbles! Why he didn't at leasst use some sensible approach and retreate (probably would have been called Friendly Game with bridle) to deal with Catwalk, why he weighed in with his ropes and gumline so quickly is anybody's guess. We can only speculate about how much easier the horse might have appeared if he hadn't backed Catwalk into a corner so quickly.


"Unbelievable! I guess that is indicative of the mentality of the typical 'Parelli hater' .... "

Golfgirl, I think that's an incredibly daft statement.

 

[Tinypony]

I do agree with the sentiment Tinypony I really do, perhaps I view parelli in a slightly more optimistic way trying to get a phase 1 move and never having to go to phase 4? (especially on a back up) but that is not to say in the right circumstances I wouldn't condone the use of it such as horse goes Right Brain extrovert and needs a short sharp shock to listen again - I think this is better than everyone getting hurt horse and human - however surely this is the exception and not the norm? In my limited parelli experience I have not seen many phase 4's of anything and I have an extreme Left brain extrovert cusp Right Brain Extrovert ... it is all down to body language with the intention of what you mean rather than the actual act?? Isn't that what they try to convey in the one suggest, two ask, don't make me pick up my stick, three ... im telling ya... 4 I promised I would ... (that sounds like my parents when I was a kid and I didn't need telling twice. )

I think the RBE, LBI etc is a handy marketing gimmick that enabled Parelli to sell a load more stuff. Read the horse in front of you, they change all the time. Nobody should need to do a chart to work out if a horse has a tendency to shut down a bit, or leap around, or like playing... whatever... and bear it in mind when working with them. I worry about applying labels to the horse because I think it makes people slow to recognise when the horse is out of that box.

I think intent is very important, but the act is just as important. So for example if I was to do something that caused a metal clip to smack my horse on the jaw, it doesn't matter what intent or emotion I was trying to project, it hurts the horse a lot and it's wrong. Sue, your description is how I was taught and how many other Parelli students are still taught to feel that this way of dealing with horses is OK. In other words - We've given them fair warning and they've ignored our intent so the "phase 4" is fair and they understand it. They understand alright, but it's just not necessary. I put my hand up to what I have done in the past, thinking it was fair, but once I'd seen better trainers in action I realised how unfair I'd been on my horses. And that was that.

Oh, I've got Parelli friends as well, we don't hate each other, we agree to differ.

 

[Golf Girl]

"Unbelievable! I guess that is indicative of the mentality of the typical 'Parelli hater' .... "

Golfgirl, I think that's an incredibly daft statement.

I think you misunderstand me TP. I am not saying that everyone who does not endorse Parelli and his methods is like that. What I am suggesting is that the typical 'hater' is - do you see the difference?

 

[Scheherezade]

QR

I just don't see the point in it, simple as. My horse is very much a people person - we got him as a 2 year old and he LOVES humans, is always fussing for attention. However he knows "no" "back up" "over" "turn around" and "stand" voice commands. I used to ride him to and from the field bareback in a headcollar with two leadropes attached to either side. When he's out of work he's not shod. This is the same way I treat all my horses - just common horsey sense. My YO is extremely old fashioned, hunting type - if anyone is caught hitting or physically punishing the horses they are thrown off the yard. He 'talks' to them when in the stable, so he now has 18hh £100K horses who understand "excuse me" and are very gentle - a bonus as I am 4 weeks away from giving birth, and would never risk getting pushed about.

WTF is the point in spending hundreds of pounds on ropes and DVDs - when simply treating horses how they should be - common sense and understanding, gets a better result?!

 

[team barney]

QR

I just don't see the point in it, simple as. My horse is very much a people person - we got him as a 2 year old and he LOVES humans, is always fussing for attention. However he knows "no" "back up" "over" "turn around" and "stand" voice commands. I used to ride him to and from the field bareback in a headcollar with two leadropes attached to either side. When he's out of work he's not shod. This is the same way I treat all my horses - just common horsey sense. My YO is extremely old fashioned, hunting type - if anyone is caught hitting or physically punishing the horses they are thrown off the yard. He 'talks' to them when in the stable, so he now has 18hh £100K horses who understand "excuse me" and are very gentle - a bonus as I am 4 weeks away from giving birth, and would never risk getting pushed about.

WTF is the point in spending hundreds of pounds on ropes and DVDs - when simply treating horses how they should be - common sense and understanding, gets a better result?!

Excellent post, your YO's method also sounds kind unlike Parelli (Parelli utilises physical punishment despite their claims to the contrary, they just name it "levels" instead)

I use the "excuse me" on my boys too, it works very well when I ask them to move over I also ask them to "be polite" or "be a gentleman" when they get too excitable, they understand some unusual requests! I talk to my boys virtually non stop, I am sure a non-horsey people would think me mad if the overhead me nattering away

Understand horses is the key, not understand well marketed regimes.

 

[fburton]

I think you misunderstand me TP. I am not saying that everyone who does not endorse Parelli and his methods is like that. What I am suggesting is that the typical 'hater' is - do you see the difference?

Are there many 'typical Parelli haters' on this board, and are you really suggesting that they would bully someone who did Parelli to the extent of vindictively destroying something that belonged to them and represented their enthusiasm and joy for the system of horsemanship which they followed? I don't think you are - and I imagine that what TP is getting at.

 

[team barney]

Are there many 'typical Parelli haters' on this board, and are you really suggesting that they would bully someone who did Parelli to the extent of vindictively destroying something that belonged to them and represented their enthusiasm and joy for the system of horsemanship which they followed? I don't think you are - and I imagine that what TP is getting at.

I suspect I am classed as one of those "typical Parelli haters", but I can assure you that I would never dream of damaging anyones property. I will have a reasoned debate with anyone willing to engage in one, I will express my opinions on Parelli but I would never damage someones carrot stick and more than I'd damage someones draw reins, I hate both gadgets but unless they were mine to destroy I wouldn't touch them. I don't borrow anyones tack, equipment of horses unless I have specifically asked permission, and I don't expect anyone to use my stuff. Sadly it does happen, I have had equipment stolen (once off of my horse's back), I have had my gear used and damaged, I have had stuff mysteriously (most likely deliberately) broken, but I don't practise Parelli. What I am trying to say is people are destructive bullies regardless of your equine faith.

 

[amandap]

Are there many 'typical Parelli haters' on this board, and are you really suggesting that they would bully someone who did Parelli to the extent of vindictively destroying something that belonged to them and represented their enthusiasm and joy for the system of horsemanship which they followed? I don't think you are - and I imagine that what TP is getting at.

Surely this applies to insulting, horrid, derogatory comments (of which I have read many on various boards) about a person that represents your joy and enthusiasm for horsemanship?
This is one aspect of these threads when they get nasty that has always perplexed me...

 

[fburton]

Surely this applies to insulting, horrid, derogatory comments (of which I have read many on various boards) about a person that represents your joy and enthusiasm for horsemanship?
This is one aspect of these threads when they get nasty that has always perplexed me...

Yes, I see your point Amandap. Is it possible to criticize a religion (or religion itself) without blaspheming against the Singular Being or reviling the official conductors of its rites? Can it be done in a way that isn't rude or cruel or insulting to its followers? Okay, I'm not really saying Parelli is a religion (though some might try to claim that!) - I'm searching for an analogy that might be helpful to define what is acceptable or not in the way of criticism. Sticking to discussing "what" rather than "who", scrupulously avoiding ad hominem remarks - that has to be okay, I think - even if there is almost always someone doing the "what" which you dislike and are arguing against. Hating an act or idea doesn't mean you hate the person who does or has it.

 

[fburton]

Just wanted to add... Some respect for context is appropriate too. For example, in my opinion it would be rude and possibly hurtful to launch into a criticism of PNH in a thread which was started with the clear intention of Parelli people celebrating something they had done, or an event they had attended. Also, I wouldn't boo loudly or badmouth methods at a Parelli convention (though I might walk out of a demo if it was horrid to watch).

 

[amandap]

Yes, I see your point Amandap. Is it possible to criticize a religion (or religion itself) without blaspheming against the Singular Being or reviling the official conductors of its rites? Can it be done in a way that isn't rude or cruel or insulting to its followers? Okay, I'm not really saying Parelli is a religion (though some might try to claim that!) - I'm searching for an analogy that might be helpful to define what is acceptable or not in the way of criticism. Sticking to discussing "what" rather than "who", scrupulously avoiding ad hominem remarks - that has to be okay, I think - even if there is almost always someone doing the "what" which you dislike and are arguing against. Hating an act or idea doesn't mean you hate the person who does or has it.

I lost my post. lol

I do believe it is possible to criticize a belief/religion/method without reviling the 'leaders' or those who subscribe to similar thinking. Revile to me means criticize in an abusive and insulting manner.
Of course the 'followers' may see any criticism this way but generally I believe people see criticism as just that and insult and contempt within or disguised as criticism, differently. Perhaps I'm wrong but I definitely do not believe reviling is a necessary or integral part of disagreement or criticism.

To me reviling implies contempt and mockery and involves a lot of hatred, anger and frustration similar emotions that no doubt prompted the slashing of the ball...

I don't think a method can be discussed in this context without discussing the 'who'.
Saying, for example, someone is 'putting too much pressure on' or shouldn't hit is a bit different to saying someone is a bully or a cruel idiot etc. etc.
I don't know if this example is any help in making my feeling/thinking clearer but along with using words like idiot and bully comes the implication that anyone subscribing to this is also thought of as a bully and idiot.
It could be argued it's the readers/hearers perception that is the problem and I do agree perception can be a big problem in discussions.

I certainly do not believe we shouldn't question and criticize or that we should believe what we are told without question and careful thought but I do believe we can question, criticize and disagree without being intentionally or unthinkingly hurtful.

Being nasty and insulting also makes people switch off and polarizes people making discussion difficult if not impossible.

Anyway, I've babbled enough the only difference to me is doing the actual act and thankfully I'm physically safe and secure behind my keyboard... my feelings are ok too now.

 

[Tinypony]

Are there many 'typical Parelli haters' on this board, and are you really suggesting that they would bully someone who did Parelli to the extent of vindictively destroying something that belonged to them and represented their enthusiasm and joy for the system of horsemanship which they followed? I don't think you are - and I imagine that what TP is getting at.

Yes, it was, thanks Fburton. The context being that Golfgirl said that someone damaging the poster's property was a "typical Parell hater" and I think that's probably not the case. Teambarney has confirmed that she wouldn't dream of destroying a Parelli Person's Poperty. (Note the thoughtful use of 3 P's...).

 

[team barney]

Teambarney has confirmed that she wouldn't dream of destroying a Parelli Person's Poperty. (Note the thoughtful use of 3 P's...).

Perhaps I am being extremely dense but I don't understand this ^^^ does 3 P's mean something? If it does I am completely lost...

p.s I wouldn't dream of destroy anyones property, so it isn't only Parelli practitioners who are safe to leave their gear in my sight

 

[Tinypony]

Parelli folk like P's Teambarney (how did you manage to miss this?)... you'll particularly like this one:
"Punishment doesn't work for Prey animals, a Programme of Prevention does".

However, top marks must surely go to:

"Pat Parelli 45 P's

Pat Parelli Proudly Presents his Provocative Programs and the Proclamation that Prior and Proper Preparation Prevents P-Poor Performance, Particularly if Polite and Passive Persistence is Practised in the Proper Position. This Perspective is Patience from Process to Product, Principle to Purpose. The Promise that Pat Plans to Prove is that Practice does not make Perfect, only Perfect Practice makes Perfect and, it is Peculiar how Prey animals Percieve People as Predators."

Copyright ParelliNaturalHorsemanship, inc.