Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
Well, obviously im clueless as to this, so please enlighten me.
RANT. Pink and fluffy would be Parelli- ites should not be allowed to ...
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Well, obviously im clueless as to this, so please enlighten me.
unbalanced
Well-Known Member
As I understand it:
Western curb bridle applies pressure to tongue, bars of mouth, poll, curb groove, can't isolate which side of mouth, dependent on neck rein to turn. Leverage action.
Double bridle applies pressure to: tongue, bars of mouth, poll, curb groove, corners of mouth, depending on which rein is used. Leverage action on curb bit.
Snaffle bridle applies pressure to: tongue, bars of mouth, corners of mouth, can be used with a one rein stop in an emergency. No leverage action.
English hackamore applies pressure to: nose, back of jaw, poll. I've never actually used one but I imagine you can teach a horse to bend perfectly well in it. Uses leverage action.
Combination bridle (like Myler) applies pressure to: tongue, corners of mouth, bars of mouth, back of jaw, nose, poll, you can have a one rein emergency stop and more nose/mouth pressure depending on how you attach the reins to the bit according to your/your horse's preference. Leverage action.
Dr Cook type bridle: hugs whole head so applies pressure to opposite side of head to rein aid and tightens on head when reins are tightened. No leverage action.
Natural Rope hackamore applies pressure to: nose, opposite side of head. Won't tighten when reins are tightened. No leverage action.
I'm sure I've missed a few but this should get us started....
amandap
Well-Known Member
Being a numpty, fool and having no competative experience and a bit old and crumbly to ride well now I think this insurance and general reliance on bits, restraint, punishment and pain is symbolic of how we view horses. We have to control them. The fact that, as many have stated, no human is actually strong enough to hold a bolting or scared horse, then bits, sticks and other tack used for control is just deluding ourselves (humans) that this will stop an accident. 
Insurance companies are notiorius for getting out of paying and will find any chink to proove YOU were at fault.
I believe it also deludes us into taking more risks ie. perhaps riding out when a horse isn't trained enough or desensitized enough . We skip some of the foundations of training a horse and teaching him about the world outside, in our rush to get in the saddle and go...
I take the view these days that if we TRAIN horses to respond to our requests, that is the better option for safety in general. Of course the untoward will always happen and so will true accidents but I believe if we shift our thinking from having control to training, we might improve horses and our lives a bit.
I am not saying that we should dispense with tack btw. far from it. I'm no trainer and am certainly no expert, I'm just expressing my opinion. Before I make a fool of myself once again, no one has to take any notice of what I write and I don't believe I 'know best', this is just the way I see things.
Insurance companies are notiorius for getting out of paying and will find any chink to proove YOU were at fault.I believe it also deludes us into taking more risks ie. perhaps riding out when a horse isn't trained enough or desensitized enough . We skip some of the foundations of training a horse and teaching him about the world outside, in our rush to get in the saddle and go...
I take the view these days that if we TRAIN horses to respond to our requests, that is the better option for safety in general. Of course the untoward will always happen and so will true accidents but I believe if we shift our thinking from having control to training, we might improve horses and our lives a bit.
I am not saying that we should dispense with tack btw. far from it. I'm no trainer and am certainly no expert, I'm just expressing my opinion. Before I make a fool of myself once again, no one has to take any notice of what I write and I don't believe I 'know best', this is just the way I see things.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Good to hear that you're finally enlightened.
I think the purpose of equitation generally throughout the centuries has been to train horses to respond to our requests.............
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
15 years ago I would have agreed with many posters, I would not have been able to imagine how a bit wasn't the best thing to ride with, for many reasons. Since then I've dealt with bolting, rearing, bucking etc when riding in a rope halter, and found it easier really. I've also galloped through scrubland in Australia, spooked at roos, ridden through the mountains of Tuscany... all in a rope halter. I've also done some "dressidge", jumping and generally had a lot of fun. Strangely enough I felt more "in control" in unforseen circumstances than I did in my younger days riding in various bits. I think it was because I knew a lot more about how both myself and the horse had been prepared?
ironhorse
Well-Known Member
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. Although i already know how the bridles work, and most bits too. I was being a tad sarcastic earlier.
I can include a sidepull bridle. Works on nose pressure, no leverage, works on side of nose also to help steering. Also no tightening.
Headcollar. Works same way as sidepul bridle and rope halter. Nose pressure, no tightening or leverage.
Scrawbrig bridle. Nose pressure, tightens behind jaw.
Light rider bridle. Similar to above, nose pressure, tightening effect behing jaw.
To be honest, there isnt much difference between most bitless bridles or halters. All work on nose pressure. The dr cooks is most different because its a whole head hug, and tightens around the horse's head. Im not a big fan of them.
Why do people think that a bitless bridle give more control than a halter or headcollar? No one has actually explained that to me, and im not talking about liability on the roads either. At the end of the day, if your horse knows how to respond to nose pressure, it will be easy to ride bitless, either in a dr cooks or halter. But if the horse isnt trained well to respond to nose pressure, then the horse wont be easy to ride in anything bitless.
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
Exactly. If we train our horse's to repond to our requests, softly and easily, it will make a far safer horse to ride, regardless of our choice of tack.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Better late than never, as they say.
Wow, what fantastic experiences, you lucky woman.
I do think bits and tack that hurt, or are used strongly so they do hurt cause more problems and resistance in horses. So someone hauling on the reins to stop the horse may actually be making the horse 'go' faster or push against the discomfort rather than yielding to it.
unbalanced
Well-Known Member
I totally agree. The first week I started riding bitless, I had a terrible time and my horse had a party. (We stayed in an enclosed arena, on our own without any other horses or riders). I hadn't really got the groundwork good enough in the halter (I use the natural hackamore) so she had a great time taking charge and doing exactly what she liked until I got my act together, got off, sorted out the groundwork and got the communication working. Now I can stop in the halter if we are out hacking and someone gallops past us on the bridlepath (yes, did actually need to test that one!).
Personally I still find I get more refinement from a bit but I like riding in a rope hackamore to get me riding more with my body and I think it's nicer for them on long picnic hacks to go bitless. Just personal preference really.
I would really love to be able to do dressage bitless one day - I have to teach her to yield to her nose to way she yields to the bit as at the moment all the energy goes out the front door!
Natch
Well-Known Member
Sorry to perpetuate the insurance debate, but doesnt third party insurance pay out if you are negligent and someone else gets injured? Say a car driver hits a pedestrian because they were on the phone and were found to be at fault, a third party insurance policy would surely pay out wouldnt it? Im not too well up on this subject so could anyone confirm if this is right or wrong?
Im suprised at some of the contributors to this thread's apparently stubbon refusal to accept that a horse can be under the same amount of control whether they have been trained with or without a bit.
Im suprised at some of the contributors to this thread's apparently stubbon refusal to accept that a horse can be under the same amount of control whether they have been trained with or without a bit.
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
I think the real problem is that people are in too much of a rush. Instead of backing in a rope headcollar and bringing on so that the horse responds to the seat. It is easier to stick a bit in a young horses mouth and start pulling on the reins. Most trainers will tell you that the horses are no problem, its the owner/rider. All the way through this thread people have gone on and on about control and bits. They put too much reliance on a bit thinking it is a brake, and steering aid. The reason for strong bits is normally heavy handedness, causing the horse to put up with discomfort and ignore the requests. As far as people competing goes, most are running before they can crawl. If you need a strong bit, its too soon.
Their horses are poorly prepared for competition as are the riders. If they do win anything, being the best of the worse that turned up means nothing.
Their horses are poorly prepared for competition as are the riders. If they do win anything, being the best of the worse that turned up means nothing.
Kallibear
Well-Known Member
Please Amymay, do enlighten us as to how the 'control' exerted with a bit is so different to the 'control' exerted with a headcollar or bitless bridle? Most people are well aware of the difference in action between the two, but fail to see how the 'control' is different. You yourself said it's down to training.....
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
I would not agree. No one who ever gets on my horses is allowed to use the bit in that way. There are bad riders out there who do so, but surely those riders would abuse a rope halter in the same way. Thin rope halters put a fair amount of pressure on the nose and when a heavy metal clasp for the reins (rope) is added to the equation, there is little relief from the constant pressure from the thin rope. Incorrectly fitted, the knots can cause discomfort to delicate areas of the horses head.
In insensitive hands the rope halter can cause as much discomfort as a rider hanging on to a snaffle. Wouldn't let one near my lot . If the horse is so well trained, why not use a plain headcollar? Or are there gaps in the training that require correction by discomfort ?
I do find it a little annoying that the inference is that those of us who use bits are lacking in our ability to train obedient, safe horses.
Kallibear
Well-Known Member
Horserider, you have trained your horses well to respond correctly to a bit. I have trained my horse well to respond correctly to headcollar. Which of us has less 'control'? Neither probably, it'll be the one with less correct training, if push came to shove.
My horses are also trained to respond correctly to a bit (although they prefer their headcollars and are more practised with them) and I would imagine you could quickly and easily train your horse to respond correctly to a headcollar, with the same amount of 'control'.
'Control' is about training your horse to respond correctly to a signal each and every time, not about the signal used.
My horses are also trained to respond correctly to a bit (although they prefer their headcollars and are more practised with them) and I would imagine you could quickly and easily train your horse to respond correctly to a headcollar, with the same amount of 'control'.
'Control' is about training your horse to respond correctly to a signal each and every time, not about the signal used.
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
Im afraid to say that you have no idea how a rope halter is used. Its not used to inflict pain, altho it can in heavy hands, but it should be used very lightly, to create a light, responsive horse.
Most people who use them ride mainly on a long rein, rarely needing to use the reins at all for control. If u have to 'haul' on your horse's head, either in a bit or halter, ur not training very well.
There should never be a constant pull on the horses head, by any tack, as this teaches the horse to pull back.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Yes, they can be ridden in a headcollar, nice animals that they are. Actually, one can be ridden with no head collar or rope around his neck, obliging boy that he is.
Even the four year old responds like a pro to seat and voice aids. She is definitely not ridden from her mouth, the bit is for dialogue.
Its too easy to say that riders who use bits have not trained their horses as well as those who don't.
I just don't ride on roads without a bridle.
I don't need to wear a hat but I do, just in case my horse were to stumble.
Responsibilty over ego.
ozpoz
Well-Known Member
As an example, when my horse competed with his previous rider at 3* level he wore a double bridle for the finesse and precision required in dressage, a hackamore for the jumping phases when his blood was up and a headcollar for between the stables and truck!
He is a very wise boy, who knows exactly what is going on and when and like most competition horses has a brain and isn't 'conditioned'
I think you would find out the difference in control very quickly had you ever had the opportunity to take him ( or watch him) across country in the wrong piece of kit!
Hopefully Amymay can describe this better than my example - but I thought it might help to illustrate the different requirements for control at different times/situations.
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Horserider, sounds like you have some cracking horses there.
No one, least of all me is tarring everyone with the same brush, though I will admit to using a broad brush at times, lol.
What is so disappointing, for me at least, is seeing all the threads asking about bitting youngsters, and all the subsequent threads asking about stronger bits for horses that ignore the riders requests to stop or slow down.
All the rest on this thread about roads, insurance etc is just molly, ie people thinking up any excuse to avoid putting a proper foundation on their horse, before hacking out or competing or whatever.
This is all about training, both for the horse and the rider.
No one, least of all me is tarring everyone with the same brush, though I will admit to using a broad brush at times, lol.
What is so disappointing, for me at least, is seeing all the threads asking about bitting youngsters, and all the subsequent threads asking about stronger bits for horses that ignore the riders requests to stop or slow down.
All the rest on this thread about roads, insurance etc is just molly, ie people thinking up any excuse to avoid putting a proper foundation on their horse, before hacking out or competing or whatever.
This is all about training, both for the horse and the rider.
Golf Girl
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is saying that, are they?
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
As an example, when my horse competed with his previous rider at 3* level he wore a double bridle for the finesse and precision required in dressage, a hackamore for the jumping phases when his blood was up and a headcollar for between the stables and truck!
He is a very wise boy, who knows exactly what is going on and when and like most competition horses has a brain and isn't 'conditioned'
I think you would find out the difference in control very quickly had you ever had the opportunity to take him ( or watch him) across country in the wrong piece of kit!
Hopefully Amymay can describe this better than my example - but I thought it might help to illustrate the different requirements for control at different times/situations.
I do understand what you are saying. Your horse needed this tack for this sort of work. Anyway, a bitless or halter is not permitted in dressage.
But i think that a lot of people think that you need a bit to be able to ride with finesse, which of course isnt true. Surely the whole idea of training our horse's is to train them to be light and responsive, regardless of tack used.
Ive persoannly seen, and ridden horse's in a halter that you hardly needed to touch the rein and who where so light. I reckon they would have done extremely well in dressage. The truth is, you dont need a piece of metal in a horse's mouth to create a soft and responsive horse, that is just a myth. Even for advanced dressage moves. Or even eventers out on the cross country course.
The way i see it, is the horse learns to come off pressure, in whatever tack we use. If we teach that horse to come off pressure REALLY lightly, this horse will remain light in whatever we do with it. If however, we teach the horse that he can lean into this pressure in any way, we might find ourselves reaching for another piece of tack, or a stronger bit, in order to 'control' the horse better.
But at the end of the day, its not even about control. Are we really in control of an animal that weighs more than 500kg? No piece of tack will stop a horse if he really wanted to go, so in reality, we are not.
So instead of saying we are in control, why not think of it as being in charge. We should be in charge of our horse's movements, of where his head goes, how fast his feet move, and if he decides to bugger off with us, we are in charge of getting him to stop. We cannot be in control of such a large animal, but we can be in charge of his movements. Perhaps if more people thought less about controlling their horse, and more of being in a partnership with him, we wouldnt need controlling devices, like big bits etc.
Even instead of saying in charge, we are the leader. We ask for our horse to do what we say, as a lead mare asks for her herd to obey her. Its not about control, its about leadership. Making sure the horse knows we are boss, and they should listen to us for guidance. If we are not good leaders, our horses will learn to take charge. If we do not show, or teach the horse how to behave or respond, he will figure out his own way to do it, regardless if its desirable for us or not.
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ozpoz
Well-Known Member
Actually , i was just trying to point out a british headcollar isn't designed for riding in!
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
Actually , i was just trying to point out a british headcollar isn't designed for riding in!
You are right, they're not designed for being ridden in. But you still can, if done correctly. The first pony i went bitless with was firstly long reined in a headcollar, then ridden in one. Once she learned to respond to nose pressure, the rest was simple.
This page has a sidepull on it, and its pretty similar to a headcollar.
In looks, and actions.
http://www.bitlessandbarefoot.com/bitless-shop.php
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Tinypony
Well-Known Member
It's turned into an interesting conversation hasn't it? I'm sorry to Op though, because we've gone right down a completely different discussion.
To reply to Amanda, yes, I've been very lucky in the things I've been able to experience with horses over the last 12 years or so (blimey, is it that long??). I had my comfort zones stretched, and my imagination stretched and also my experience, which has come in quite handy.
I don't think people have meant to infer that those who use bits are lacking in ability to train obedient, safe horses. It feels a bit vice versa in some cases, where people are steadfastly maintaining that the riders in halters can't train their horses to the same level of safety as those using bits. But live and let live eh?
The biggest thing I lhave learnt about being safe has been that using one rein seems to work much better in terms of safety than using two. Most of us when we're conventionally trained take up on both reins at once when things go tits up, I don't do that any more.
Rope halters would be horrible things to use for riding if you rode with constant pressure (a contact?) on the rein. It would also make them ineffective because the horse would become desensitised to the feel. I am of the opinion that might also apply to Dr Cook's bridles and even bits as well. If you ride in a rope halter there should always be at least a slight loop in your rein, until you take it up to say something, then when the horse responds, you return to neutral. Used that way they are a light tool. (I don't use metal clips on mine by the way, I think they spoil "feel", and must be irritating when they swing about under the chin).
I notice that my supposed "neighbour" hasn't come back. My real neighbour is an intelligent and thinking horsewoman who would read what I actually said, not what she wanted me to have said to start an argument. If I upset her she'd ring me up to see if I meant to! She would also agree that:
a) The other horses down my way aren't ridden.
b) That doesn't bother me in the slightest. We've chatted about that many times and she knows that, even if a horse could be ridden, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the owner to choose not to and to keep it as a field pet if they want. I know some here would disagree with that, but if a horse is loved and well cared for then that's the most important thing I think.
To reply to Amanda, yes, I've been very lucky in the things I've been able to experience with horses over the last 12 years or so (blimey, is it that long??). I had my comfort zones stretched, and my imagination stretched and also my experience, which has come in quite handy.
I don't think people have meant to infer that those who use bits are lacking in ability to train obedient, safe horses. It feels a bit vice versa in some cases, where people are steadfastly maintaining that the riders in halters can't train their horses to the same level of safety as those using bits. But live and let live eh?
The biggest thing I lhave learnt about being safe has been that using one rein seems to work much better in terms of safety than using two. Most of us when we're conventionally trained take up on both reins at once when things go tits up, I don't do that any more.
Rope halters would be horrible things to use for riding if you rode with constant pressure (a contact?) on the rein. It would also make them ineffective because the horse would become desensitised to the feel. I am of the opinion that might also apply to Dr Cook's bridles and even bits as well. If you ride in a rope halter there should always be at least a slight loop in your rein, until you take it up to say something, then when the horse responds, you return to neutral. Used that way they are a light tool. (I don't use metal clips on mine by the way, I think they spoil "feel", and must be irritating when they swing about under the chin).
I notice that my supposed "neighbour" hasn't come back. My real neighbour is an intelligent and thinking horsewoman who would read what I actually said, not what she wanted me to have said to start an argument. If I upset her she'd ring me up to see if I meant to! She would also agree that:
a) The other horses down my way aren't ridden.
b) That doesn't bother me in the slightest. We've chatted about that many times and she knows that, even if a horse could be ridden, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the owner to choose not to and to keep it as a field pet if they want. I know some here would disagree with that, but if a horse is loved and well cared for then that's the most important thing I think.
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
I don't doubt anyone who knows anything about horses agrees the key is training, however there are a great deal of people who buy horses from previous owners who have shot the mouth to sh** so to speak.
I have gone back to basics with my coloured, the fact of the matter still remains that when he gets out hunting, he pulls like a train, because he was never trained not to do that.
Azmar
Well-Known Member
Takes two to pull!!
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Runtoearth, it's much harder to retrain a horse that's been ridden in a certain way for years than to start from scratch with your own youngster isn't it? The two of mine that I started were so easy, and so light and responsive because they'd never learnt to lean and pull.
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
Why are you slating people for enquring about insurance? I have not slated you and your technique of riding, so please don't call those who are thinking of insurance and using bits as avoiding 'proper training'....what a bloody insult!
Kokopelli
Well-Known Member
Ditto!
Wouldn't it be nice for everyone to get a clean slate of a horse who you can train from day 1 the correct way. I have only had this pleasure once though and all the other times has had to undo all the krap before I start teaching new things. That's why I hate it when people judge me on what my horse is ridden in.
Can't agree with this more AS some of your posts on this thread have come across as 'holier than thou.'
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
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