RANT. Pink and fluffy would be Parelli- ites should not be allowed to ...

Tinypony said:
Runtoearth, it's much harder to retrain a horse that's been ridden in a certain way for years than to start from scratch with your own youngster isn't it? The two of mine that I started were so easy, and so light and responsive because they'd never learnt to lean and pull.
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Most definitely. The show jumper I bought a while back was a lunatic when I first got on her. Needed someone strong to hold her long enough for me to get my bum in the saddle, then she'd run like something possessed all the time bracing herself waiting for the bit to be taken hold of.
She was mightily surprised when she realised she still had her head. Lovely mare,she had to learn to chill and take responsibility for her own balance before we could enjoy a new way of riding.

Andy Spooner, thanks, though any credit goes to my lot, they are just nice characters.
 
Kokopelli said:
Opps sorry should have made it clearer, yes Andy is being 'holier than thou.'

Not you DS I've agreed with pretty much everything you've posted. :D
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Haha!

and yes, all I wanted was clarification on the insurance thing, sure, I agree with AS saying training is important....but to then say those who use bits are avoiding a 'proper foundation'....looses him all credibility in what WAS a sensible debate....
 
DragonSlayer said:
Why are you slating people for enquring about insurance? I have not slated you and your technique of riding, so please don't call those who are thinking of insurance and using bits as avoiding 'proper training'....what a bloody insult!
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Could not agree with you more!

I really object to both Andy and Jenny's assumption that 'people who ride with a bit are avoiding proper training'.

EVERY good horseman/woman relies on training, whether you use a damn bit or not. Steering and brakes are NOT from a pull on the bit and anyone who uses that method with bit or without, is not a good horseman!

I also dislike Jenny's assumption that if she wanted to 'show off' she would compete her horse. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the competitive rider's partnership with his/her horse. You will not be surprised to read that I am a competition rider (BD), when I compete my horse it is NOT to show off what pretty movements she can make, I compete my horse as a test of my TRAINING! My horse competes at AM in a snaffle, she is also an extremely sensitive little being and if I were to haul on the reins as has been suggested by the ignorant, I would not stand a rats chance in hell of achieving the softness and willingness that is the result of 8 years of training.

The Aussie guy in the video was very impressive, his horse was forward and off his forehand, therefore he could perform the movements properly. Sorry Jenny, but your video was less than impressive, the horse was not nearly forward enough to achieve the movements and the canter was four time and on the forehand, if you continue to ride that horse in that way you will damage it. I realise that your horse is 'green' but you have made the classic mistake of asking for movements before getting the horse going truly forward.

I apologise if I am offending you but you have already really really offended me with your assumptions.
 
I haven't even looked at the videos, but I'll just throw in something from the sidelines. One of the downsides that I see fairly regularly from the Parelli approach is horses that are too much on the forehand. Even sometimes watching Linda P riding, I wish she would get the horse balanced better before doing some of the work. For the Parelli people... I think that there is too much time spent on "Freestyle".
 
Amaranta said:
Could not agree with you more!

I really object to both Andy and Jenny's assumption that 'people who ride with a bit are avoiding proper training'.

EVERY good horseman/woman relies on training, whether you use a damn bit or not. Steering and brakes are NOT from a pull on the bit and anyone who uses that method with bit or without, is not a good horseman!

I also dislike Jenny's assumption that if she wanted to 'show off' she would compete her horse. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the competitive rider's partnership with his/her horse. You will not be surprised to read that I am a competition rider (BD), when I compete my horse it is NOT to show off what pretty movements she can make, I compete my horse as a test of my TRAINING! My horse competes at AM in a snaffle, she is also an extremely sensitive little being and if I were to haul on the reins as has been suggested by the ignorant, I would not stand a rats chance in hell of achieving the softness and willingness that is the result of 8 years of training.

The Aussie guy in the video was very impressive, his horse was forward and off his forehand, therefore he could perform the movements properly. Sorry Jenny, but your video was less than impressive, the horse was not nearly forward enough to achieve the movements and the canter was four time and on the forehand, if you continue to ride that horse in that way you will damage it. I realise that your horse is 'green' but you have made the classic mistake of asking for movements before getting the horse going truly forward.

I apologise if I am offending you but you have already really really offended me with your assumptions.
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Dont worry, i am aware that this horse i rode was not moving forward, and yes he is on the forhand. But he was only backed last year, i am not expecting anything great from him. Not yet anyway. I guess if i put a video up of myself, i have to be prepared for the slack i get when someone doesnt like what i do or how i ride. Dont worry, im not offended. When you go against the grain, you do get use to it.
 
Tinypony said:
I must correct myself, the horses and ponies eat grass, drink from time to time and wander about a bit. With the right person I suspect all of them could be ridden. :-))

QUOTE]

Tinypony said:
p.s. I've just had a think. Down the lane where I keep my 3 nags there are a total of 13 horses and ponies. Only 3 are ridden (mine). Two are too old and retired to ride. That leaves 8 horses and ponies doing nothing, and in fact they don't even do groundwork.
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Tinypony I also made the connection that you may be my neighbour but as I was not registerd last week I did not post a reply but I would say that Geri's question in response to your post would apply to me as well
Please could you PM me so I can clarify :)
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To the new members who are supposedly my neighbours - if you are you're having a joke aren't you? Just have a chat with me as you normally do, I don't bite do I? And I haven't said anything nasty.

Incidentally, the "right person" to ride a horse will vary. It might be someone who wants to, or someone who has the experience to, or someone who is the right weight, or someone who won't push the horse too hard. Having said that, riding a horse isn't important and wasn't the point of what was being said.

Pm's???
 
Don't worry, I don't really think my real neighbours would behave like this. They'd just talk to me, we do a lot of talking...!
 
Little story, when I was younger I was asked to swop horses in a lesson, I was put on a renowned hothead, beautiful mare, but really really forward. Anyways I got on and we started to do some work and she went like a doll for me. But I don't do much, have a soft giving hand and I don't fight. She would tank off for her other rider quite frequently, she is an excellent rider and teacher, but the mare didn't like to be forcibly ridden, I gave her head was quiet and she gave me her attention.

It all comes down to trust and respect at the end of the day, bit less or bitted, and we ve all in our time ridden without a bridle haven't we?

just have respect for each others outlook, we all do different things and can learn off each other, we all want the best for our horse and ponies....ridden or not :)
 
I'm going to bed now, but what about the concept of trained horses that have not been tamed.

Tamed is being convinced that they won't be hurt by their handler.

Impossible for some I'd say.
 
I've been reading this thread for a while but not commented as it was just an interesting read.

but can you let me know do you guys ride in a traditional English headcollar like this:http://www.robinsonsequestrian.com/horse-clothing/horsewear/standard-nylon-headcollar.html & then attach the rope clips to the side? Biggest surely when you pull on one side the headcollar & consequently the rope clip push into the side of the horses face :confused: pretty uncomfortable I would have thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also it's funny that some of the stuff that parelli does that people pay £££'s for fancy equipment for, I did from pure common sense/thought process. Such as teaching your horse to back from command & touching it all over.. I don't do it with a stick though can't see the point myself just something else to hold. Also I learnt to one rein stop my pony when I was about 8 when he bolted, I knew he couldn't gallop in a circle that got progressively smaller so thats what I made him do. Using the leg aid and pull back on the rein.
 
Hi Jenki13, the headcollar that most are talking about and use is the thin knotted natural hackamore. Some don't like it as they reckon it puts a lot of pressure on the soft part of the nose. However, fitted correctly it doesn't, but then folk want it lower, there is no winning on this forum.

The Parelli equipment is cheap, all you need is the stick, a couple of ropes and a headcollar.
 
The dear stuff is probably the dvd sets. In one lump a couple of hundred quid is a lot, but there is a lot of information on these discs. About ten averaged priced riding lessons works out similar, depending, but I think the discs are better value.

The good think about Parelli is that if you don't like it, don't do it.
 
I agree with the post that stated...level 1 is about hitting your horse around the head with a rope, and smacking in the face with a carrot stick in preparation for level 2.

I also find that the horses are always 'upside down' their headcollar, halter thing is always be tugged on so their head is in the air and their backs hollow.

I have never dealt with a nice parelli horse - i either find that they are rude beyond belief...heaven forbid they step back when you open a stable door or the fit into the switched off category...you know how some riding school horses look like are here in body but not in mind...i think quite a few look like that as well as looking utterly confused

I'm sure that there are some horses that are very well trained/competed to a high level but I’m pretty sure that 99.9% of competition horses/horses that are competing to a decent level do not do parelli. and the same with legendry riders

Again i agree that a lot of the people that do it are terrified to get on their backs but instead of having an instructor that is calm and patient and hepls them get back on the horse parelli instructors have them poking the horse on the shoulder with a carrot stick and making it walk backwards....fast forward 12 months, the nervous owner still hasn't got on, the horse is switched off and looks confused at the end of a rope

But the DVD sales are going well ££££
 
AndySpooner said:
Hi Jenki13, the headcollar that most are talking about and use is the thin knotted natural hackamore. Some don't like it as they reckon it puts a lot of pressure on the soft part of the nose. However, fitted correctly it doesn't, but then folk want it lower, there is no winning on this forum.

The Parelli equipment is cheap, all you need is the stick, a couple of ropes and a headcollar.
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Oh ok, that makes more sense. I've never come across one so I won't comment on the fit, although any tack incorrectly fitted is painful for the horse so...

I can just remember going to HOYS (i think) & looking at the parelli stand & they wanted a whole shed load of money for their stuff.. But as you said it was probably the DVDs :/ . I'll just stick to reading some good old fashioned books & making up my own mind lol.
 
Jennyharvey said:
The way i see it, is the horse learns to come off pressure, in whatever tack we use. If we teach that horse to come off pressure REALLY lightly, this horse will remain light in whatever we do with it. If however, we teach the horse that he can lean into this pressure in any way, we might find ourselves reaching for another piece of tack, or a stronger bit, in order to 'control' the horse better.

But at the end of the day, its not even about control. Are we really in control of an animal that weighs more than 500kg? No piece of tack will stop a horse if he really wanted to go, so in reality, we are not.
So instead of saying we are in control, why not think of it as being in charge. We should be in charge of our horse's movements, of where his head goes, how fast his feet move, and if he decides to bugger off with us, we are in charge of getting him to stop. We cannot be in control of such a large animal, but we can be in charge of his movements. Perhaps if more people thought less about controlling their horse, and more of being in a partnership with him, we wouldnt need controlling devices, like big bits etc.
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I agree with all of the above, and I like the distinction you make between "in control" and "in charge".

Even instead of saying in charge, we are the leader. We ask for our horse to do what we say, as a lead mare asks for her herd to obey her. Its not about control, its about leadership. Making sure the horse knows we are boss, and they should listen to us for guidance. If we are not good leaders, our horses will learn to take charge. If we do not show, or teach the horse how to behave or respond, he will figure out his own way to do it, regardless if its desirable for us or not.
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This is where we diverge (perhaps). You say the "lead mare asks for her herd to obey her". That's not really what I see and understand happening in horse herds - but maybe we need to be clear about what you mean by "obey". What orders/requests does the lead mare give that the others obey?
 
BMA, level 1 is nothing like you describe, but there you go.

I know that most people make hash of most training methods, hardly anyone can train a dog so what chance with horses. Lol.
 
jenki13 said:
but can you let me know do you guys ride in a traditional English headcollar like this:http://www.robinsonsequestrian.com/horse-clothing/horsewear/standard-nylon-headcollar.html & then attach the rope clips to the side? Biggest surely when you pull on one side the headcollar & consequently the rope clip push into the side of the horses face :confused: pretty uncomfortable I would have thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Yes I use a traditional english headcollar similar to the one in your link (reins can be attached either at the sides or at the back). I have never found it to twist, but I ride mainly with my seat, not my hands. The lead rope clips when attached at the back are not in any contact with the horse, when attaching at the side I tend to use reins but have used lead-ropes in the past and have never found them to press against my horses face (One is very sensitive and I would know instantly if he was experiencing even the mildest form of discomfort!)

I don't use a knotted rope halter as regardless of fit they still cause discomfort, one of the great myths about them is that they are a kinder option to a conventional headcollar. They are a severe training aid and exert tremendous pressure, not nice at all.
 
fburton said:
This is where we diverge (perhaps). You say the "lead mare asks for her herd to obey her". That's not really what I see and understand happening in horse herds - but maybe we need to be clear about what you mean by "obey". What orders/requests does the lead mare give that the others obey?
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I watched a clip of a feral group once. A colt of two years old was creating havoc with the brood mares and babies. The lead mare kicked it and bit it a couple of times to tell it to behave. It didn't. So she got really violent with it and drove it right out of the group, so that it was forced to stand all by itself out in the open. If any predator had come along it would have been the one to get eaten. She kept it out there for a long time, until it was licking and chewing and dropping its head in total subserviance, begging her to let it back in to the safety of the herd. When she did, it behaved itself completely, it obeyed the orders that the lead mare gave it.

I makes me laugh when people say we should never hit horses - that mare beat seven bells out of that youngster to stop it endangering the herd and there are people who really seriously think it's wrong to slap a horse to get its attention focussed where you need it for safety.


I'm no fan of Parelli though!
 
i agree with cptrayers ,my mare was quite tough on her foal and now at 3 years old it has impecable manners, i put it down to strict parenting, it made my job easier.
 
cptrayes said:
I watched a clip of a feral group once. A colt of two years old was creating havoc with the brood mares and babies. The lead mare kicked it and bit it a couple of times to tell it to behave. It didn't. So she got really violent with it and drove it right out of the group, so that it was forced to stand all by itself out in the open. If any predator had come along it would have been the one to get eaten. She kept it out there for a long time, until it was licking and chewing and dropping its head in total subserviance, begging her to let it back in to the safety of the herd.
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Very interesting - this is said to be the rationale for Join Up. Do you remember where the clip was from? I'd love to see it myself.

When she did, it behaved itself completely, it obeyed the orders that the lead mare gave it.
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What kind of orders did she give it?

I makes me laugh when people say we should never hit horses - that mare beat seven bells out of that youngster to stop it endangering the herd and there are people who really seriously think it's wrong to slap a horse to get its attention focussed where you need it for safety.
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Yes, but that doesn't mean that we have to use violent and/or aggressive methods if there are alternatives that work just as well or better - as there almost always are. Horses do all kinds of things to each other which we wouldn't dream of doing ourselves - because we aren't horses. The argument that it's fine for us to do these things simply because horses do is a bit spurious, in my opinion.
 
She ordered it not to bite and kick people by threatening it, biting it or kicking it when it did. When it did not obey her, she banished it, which is a death sentence to a herd preyed-upon animal.

No-one said we "have" to use violent methods, but I laugh myself silly at the people who believe that it is never right to hit a horse. The have obviously never had to handle a highly strung horse who is, for example, swinging its head about and risking knocking you out because it is so excited by something going on around it. The safest thing to do in that situation is to get the attention focussed on the handler, and fast, and a slap is very often the best, safest and fastest way to achieve that. I'm not suggesting that it should be routine but it's completely ridiculous, in my opinion, to declare, as some people do, that it is never right to hit a horse.

The TV program on the feral herd was donkey's years ago. It was a David Attenborough, that's all I remember.
 
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