Raw food and camping...

ester said:
I think rara just had to PTS one as a result of its raw diet. I think having to do that with any frequency probably makes you think it isn't the 'ultimate diet' or quite as brilliant as others do.

It does seem that those that spend a lot of time in vets practices in what ever capacity are less keen, even those who previously were.

Yes I really dont think we have addressed the main issue here which is clearly err camping in February?!??
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Many vets do recommend raw, in fact some supply it and nothing else.
Many of us in the industry are open to feeding, wet, dry or raw, the key is feeding a good quality food correctly.
The fact that vets stock foods like hills, petface and royal canin says a lot to me.
The problem is that raw is so often done wrong- it's a conversation I often have at work and things are starting to change in the industry.
 
ester said:
I think the greyhounds would agree too Lev!
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I always wondered why there was the saying 'dogs are like their owners' until I met greyhounds - yep, they are JUST like me :D Lazy couch potatoes with occasional bursts of enthusiasm, and very much focussed on their warmth and comfort :)
 
twiggy2 said:
Many vets do recommend raw, in fact some supply it and nothing else.
Many of us in the industry are open to feeding, wet, dry or raw, the key is feeding a good quality food correctly.
The fact that vets stock foods like hills, petface and royal canin says a lot to me.
The problem is that raw is so often done wrong- it's a conversation I often have at work and things are starting to change in the industry.
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That is interesting twiggy2 - it is a genuine question, how do people get it wrong? There are so many ideas circulating (e.g. you must feed vegetables with raw etc. etc. ) and I suppose people (like me!) pick out some things but not others
 
I was careful to say less keen, even if they were keen to start rather than there were none that would recommend it, I'm pedantic about my language like that see ;). Just thought where Rara was coming from needed expanding on cos I still think it must be pretty **** to have to kill dogs from something, (anything not necessarily Raw) you know the owners could have avoided.

I guess like everything some people pick out the wrong bits from the internet Lev, or miss the important bits- not everyone knows enough to know the difference or when to ask for help. However there are some raw risks that I can't see are that avoidable - obviously coming at it from a microbiologists point of view but with no specialist knowledge beyond the published science - which tbf there seems to be very little on defined benefits of raw, only risks.
 
Lévrier;13482302 said:
That is interesting twiggy2 - it is a genuine question, how do people get it wrong? There are so many ideas circulating (e.g. you must feed vegetables with raw etc. etc. ) and I suppose people (like me!) pick out some things but not others
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People get the ratios of different meats and bone wrong, feed the wrong sorts of bones that splinter, feed cooked bones on a raw diet!, fed puppies and young dogs 2-3% of their current body weight rather than projected adult weight and don't feed the dog for weight according to the weight of the dog in front of them.
I suggest if people want to feed raw that they use a prepared raw food from a reputable supplier and seek advice from the on how to feed it correctly.
 
ester said:
I was careful to say less keen, even if they were keen to start rather than there were none that would recommend it, I'm pedantic about my language like that see ;). Just thought where Rara was coming from needed expanding on cos I still think it must be pretty **** to have to kill dogs from something, (anything not necessarily Raw) you know the owners could have avoided.

I guess like everything some people pick out the wrong bits from the internet Lev, or miss the important bits- not everyone knows enough to know the difference or when to ask for help. However there are some raw risks that I can't see are that avoidable - obviously coming at it from a microbiologists point of view but with no specialist knowledge beyond the published science - which tbf there seems to be very little on defined benefits of raw, only risks.
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Well 2 of us on here work in the industry and do or would promote raw.
Many many animals each year are put to sleep due to being fed incorrectly other food than raw.
Many animals are pts sleep prematurely due to the effects of obesity.
Looks at wylies vet centre Essex.
A very well respected vet I know went and worked there and before he was very much against raw feeding now he along with a growing number of others are promoting the correct feeding of raw food.
 
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twiggy2 said:
People get the ratios of different meats and bone wrong, feed the wrong sorts of bones that splinter, feed cooked bones on a raw diet!, fed puppies and young dogs 2-3% of their current body weight rather than projected adult weight and don't feed the dog for weight according to the weight of the dog in front of them.
I suggest if people want to feed raw that they use a prepared raw food from a reputable supplier and seek advice from the on how to feed it correctly.
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Oh good grief..... OK, you cannot account for blatant stupidity.........

But then people still feed Bakers and the like so I guess that proves my point!
 
ester said:
I guess like everything some people pick out the wrong bits from the internet Lev, or miss the important bits- not everyone knows enough to know the difference or when to ask for help. However there are some raw risks that I can't see are that avoidable - obviously coming at it from a microbiologists point of view but with no specialist knowledge beyond the published science - which tbf there seems to be very little on defined benefits of raw, only risks.
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I refer you to pictures of Islay, my 13 1/2 year old greyhound :) OK I haven't actually put them on HHO, so you can't really do that lol, but she looks 100% fantastic on raw - plump, shiny, the picture of health - whereas on kibble she looks underweight, dull coated and awful. Those are all the defined benefits I need as an owner :)

My other comments I have deleted for fear of offending someone
 
I think there is plenty of evidence for stupidity in the world right now!

twiggy I am curious what the PTS reasons are for direct effects of food other than raw? What sort of issues are we talking there?
As I said previously I don't think we can lump all non raw in together and blame the obesity crisis on everything but raw.

I'm sure plenty do recommend raw it will be interesting to see when the science catches up, I guess those with commercial interests must be making enough without funding any as it stands hence the lack of.
 
ester said:
I think there is plenty of evidence for stupidity in the world right now!

twiggy I am curious what the PTS reasons are for direct effects of food other than raw? What sort of issues are we talking there?
As I said previously I don't think we can lump all non raw in together and blame the obesity crisis on everything but raw.

I'm sure plenty do recommend raw it will be interesting to see when the science catches up, I guess those with commercial interests must be making enough without funding any as it stands hence the lack of.
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How about Bakers containing known carcinogens?
 
ester said:
I was careful to say less keen, even if they were keen to start rather than there were none that would recommend it, I'm pedantic about my language like that see ;). Just thought where Rara was coming from needed expanding on cos I still think it must be pretty **** to have to kill dogs from something, (anything not necessarily Raw) you know the owners could have avoided.

I guess like everything some people pick out the wrong bits from the internet Lev, or miss the important bits- not everyone knows enough to know the difference or when to ask for help. However there are some raw risks that I can't see are that avoidable - obviously coming at it from a microbiologists point of view but with no specialist knowledge beyond the published science - which tbf there seems to be very little on defined benefits of raw, only risks.
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Lévrier;13482325 said:
How about Bakers containing known carcinogens?
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Bakers is not the only food, many dog foods contain carcinogens.
Dental disease and associated problems, diabetes is pretty much unknown in raw fed animals, soft tissue and joint injuries are less common- this is thought to be because the raw cartilage they eat is easily utilised by the body as it is in a form that is natural, bloat is very rare, pancreatitis is very rare as are other conditions if raw is fed correctly.
 
And lets not forget behaviour. Mine is absolutley crazed on anything like Bakers. Completely unmanageable. Hes fine on raw food.

How did Rara was it? dog get PTS as a direct result of feeding raw food?
 
Bakers isn't the only alternative ;) thank goodness. This forum and the dog food index would have me believe there are many arguably good options that aren't raw.
That's why I asked what issues we were talking that could easily be attributed to none raw compared to raw - maybe I should have clarified 'good none raw'?. Is it possible to feed as good as raw without the microbiological risks which other than your dogs digestion would seem tricky to totally mitigate to me?

Its a shame the research seems so far behind if it is the case that nutritionally nothing can rival it.
 
Personally I do not simply rely on research to assist my decisions about what I feed my dogs - I rely on my own observations (as outlined above) about the benefits of a raw diet.

I fully appreciate that every individual has a right to choose the evidence/opinion they rely on.
 
Thats the only thing I could come up with.

I'm surprised given how strongly a lot of people feel about fibre based diets for horses that anyone could think raw wasnt the best option for dogs. Surely its exactly the same principle?
 
Anecdotally and from personal experience, lots of allergies, skin and ear problems, growth rate issues, dental issues and bloat/torsion have been linked to feeding dry.
Long term problems rather than sudden deaths although the latter two are of course killers.
 
Feed a horse just hay and you won't do him any hsrm. Raw seems a minefield, starting off with buying and running an additional freezer and going on to either paying a lot for prepared raw or calculating percentages of everything.
Too complex, costly and space greedy for me..
 
Lévrier;13482470 said:
That's what I thought until I did it Clodagh - then I did it & found it is actually incredibly simple.
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I am not going there, mine look well on good kibble. I can understand the benefits of it but not enough to do it.
 
Lévrier;13482372 said:
Personally I do not simply rely on research to assist my decisions about what I feed my dogs - I rely on my own observations (as outlined above) about the benefits of a raw diet.

I fully appreciate that every individual has a right to choose the evidence/opinion they rely on.
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I don't have any dogs so I am not making any decisions, just interested in the arguments and you will have to forgive me but as a scientist the data for both would be of interest to me if it exists, you yourself said earlier the stats would be interesting but now we seemed to have moved on from that. I've been knocking around this forum long enough to know that a lot of people rate it from their personal experience.

Leo Walker said:
What risks?
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Salmonella, listeria, E.coli, toxoplasmosis
I don't think it is appropriate for me to go into what was wrong with the dog that Rara dealt with yesterday but it was microbiological and I don't think down to owner error beyond feeding raw. Obviously I did my PhD in meat microbiology so this is somewhat a special interest of mine ;).

CorvusCorax said:
Anecdotally and from personal experience, lots of allergies, skin and ear problems, growth rate issues, dental issues and bloat/torsion have been linked to feeding dry.
Long term problems rather than sudden deaths although the latter two are of course killers.
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Thanks CC, I was genuinely wondering if there was something I didn't know about which could cause an acute issue leading to fairly rapid death (bloat not withstanding).

I guess my thoughts regarding clarification on the issues of feeding NOT raw were that not raw doesn't automatically mean dry which I am aware has risks of bloat etc particularly in some breeds. It also doesn't have to mean feeding something like bakers, or something full of fillers anymore? Therefore does not raw automatically mean a substandard diet that means it is worth people taking a chance on some of the risks or have we not yet got to the stage when someone has manufactured a good quality not raw (wet/dry/combined) diet that has the benefits of raw but without those risks. Obviously people do feel that the condition of their dogs/potentially avoiding the longer term problems you mention (for which I was aware of the anecdotal evidence) on raw is worth that risk and that is of course fair enough, it is an owners decision, but again some data on the benefits would be nice then and to know that all owners that are feeding as such have the salient information to make that decision which would appear not to necessarily be the case.


I'm all for naturalling, I've been busy barefooting again today but unless I'm feeding my horse haylage there really is no microbiological risk to their health from feeding them a forage based diet. That doesn't seem the same to me as feeding animals raw.
 
I absolutely think that raw feeding is the best way to go...I still do feed partially raw but it isn't conducive to obedience or tracking training. I used to use Duck (a frozen raw complete) for obedience, really made my pockets stink lol.
I went tracking with a friend in the states who threw down huge lumps of raw mince in a dirt field because by the time she came to do it, the ants had carried most of it away.
 
ester said:
Salmonella, listeria, E.coli, toxoplasmosis
I don't think it is appropriate for me to go into what was wrong with the dog that Rara dealt with yesterday but it was microbiological and I don't think down to owner error beyond feeding raw. Obviously I did my PhD in meat microbiology so this is somewhat a special interest of mine ;)
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My understanding is that a reasonable percentage of dogs have salmonella but at a sub clinical level regardless of what they are fed. There have been recalls of "normal"dog food as salmonella has been found. I dont think that any dog food can be considered sterile and bacteria free.

Dogs have a short digestive tract and a highly acidic stomach. They are designed to eat raw meat and deal with the associated bacteria.
 
ester said:
I'm all for naturalling, I've been busy barefooting again today but unless I'm feeding my horse haylage there really is no microbiological risk to their health from feeding them a forage based diet. That doesn't seem the same to me as feeding animals raw.
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My point is you and lots of others feed a fibre based diet as you deem it better for your horse than a processed diet. I do the same for my dogs. You say about a microbiological risk, but is there actually one? If there is it must be absolutely minuscule.
 
Although not enough (when is there enough!) there is enough to form a critical review paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/

And the FDA did a comparison:

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm373757.htm

I find the fact that the risks are not even known by some (or many?) of those choosing to feed the diet quite alarming really! Absolutely people have the right to make an informed choice for each individual animal, but the key is informed. I am not going to get into the details of individual cases for obvious confidentiality reasons.
 
A friend was feeding raw and changed her supplier to a home delivery one but they left out the delivery on the doorstep and it had started to thaw out. It smelt ok so she used the meat they ended up with food poisoning and at the vets because of the meat. You do have to be very careful with it.
 
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