Realistic changes needed to "fix" top level dressage?

[MagicMelon]

Well guys, what are your suggestions for how to "fix" top level dressage?

 

[SadKen]

I’ve put some on the CDJ thread but to summarise:

1. Allow riders to talk to their horses if they want to.
2. Allow bitless bridles, minimal tack, no noseband if the rider doesn’t want one.
3. Look at collective mark standards. If the true aim of dressage is to help the horse’s fitness and suppleness, why are all the top horses spidery warmbloods? Any breed should be able to compete at the top level; overhaul collective mark standards to make this possible.
4. That overhaul can consider a mark for harmony; whether the horse and rider work well as a team. Marks off for horses showing signs of tension, swishing tail, pinned ears etc.
5. Extra marks for movements which show greater harmony with the horse - eg allow riders to complete moves with one hand.
6. At lower levels, allow riders to compete in coloured jackets and saddlecloths. As long as you look neat and tidy that should be enough.
7. An in-depth look at which exercises benefit the horse physically and help soundness/fitness would be good - then set tests to ask for more of those things and less of the things which compromise horses.

Probably a few there to start off.

 

[blitznbobs]

I don’t think the rules need to change but the judging does ….

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Agree with all of the above (bar 6. I think it's nice to look smart), I also think that flash nosebands should be banned completely. It is evident that they cannot be used without abuse, even with tack checks.

I also think that a paid, independent steward with the power to completely disqualify any competitor and with a camera at all times, should be stood at every warm up/ridden ring - anything seen such as intensely heavy hands, tight nosebands, overuse of spur or whip, rolkur or hyperflexion and any intense tension inflicted by the rider, they should be immediately photographed and sent home. No-one is allowed to approach this steward directly with concerns, it should be referred to the governing body or the show organiser to review with the panel of judges ref: any challenges to the order to go home. Much like VAR in football.

I also think we should remove piaffe from being a movement in dressage at all, it is rarely completed or trained well and seems to be the movement with the most issues related to it.

Reduction in marks for non-parallell front and back legs specifically to get rid of this stupid spider leg nonsense.

An independent judge who is looking primarily at tension, harmony, spur use, tail swishing, head position etc which does make up a portion of the final %, they do not necessarily have to be a dressage rider.

 

[ihatework]

Warm ups need to be videoed and formally stewarded with far more warnings and cards for any infringement - to be very clearly spelt out in the rules.

The FEI judging guidelines need to be reviewed but more importantly adhered to, with widespread retraining of expectations.

Tack - snaffles should be allowed at all levels, I personally don’t have an issue with doubles provided competitors penalised if used incorrectly/poorly.

 

[Nonjumper]

Dressage was my sport (back in the day) and I have to say I agree with @SadKen that the tack that is allowed, particularly for top flight dressage competition, needs to change. There really is no reason why they HAVE to wear double bridles beyond a certain point. However, I personally feel the white saddle pad looks smart, but wouldn't see an issue with black or brown being added to the mix. As for jackets, I'm afraid I'm very much of the thought that it should be black or navy unless it's unaffiliated.
Stillness of the rider needs to be part of the mark, the flailing feet of the eventers when at trot made me grimace.
Tack inspections on entering and exiting the area and disqualifications regardless of how big the name is. i.e. if the noseband (if worn) is tighter than two fingers (this could be a measurement in order to avoid issues around differing finger sizes of inspectors). Similar disqualifications would apply to bloody mouths/cut lips, and blue tongues and spur/whip marks.
Judging ... how you are going to change something that is based entirely on someone's personal opinion I have no idea. However it is because judges liking a specific way of going that means that dressage is dominated by warmbloods who all move that way, and with a specific head carriage because people deems it to show 'power'. When I was competing horse going like they do now would be described as 'broken necked' and 'behind the vertical' but that seems a given these days, and I am only talking about 25 years difference.
Tension such as teeth grinding, head tilting/shaking and tail swishing are already docked points, or at least they always used to be, because it's seen as the horse not willingly accepting the riders aids.

However while all this might change things in a competition, it won't resolve what goes on at home.

 

[Orangehorse]

Improve judging standards. Its the same old story - interpretation of the rules.

In "The Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage" there is a comparison of the illustrations from the Dressage Manuals, the first from 1987 and the second redrawn in 1997 of the piaffe, and the picture that horse and rider present. There are subtle differences between the two with the earlier one showing a horse with the poll open and at the highest point which piaffes high in front, flexes its back and lowers its haunches with its hindquarters under its body. The 1997 illustration shows a vertical head, low hands and the poll not the highest point and the haunches are not lowered, with the weight more on the shoulders.

At first it is hard to see the differences, but look carefully. So a dressage horse trained in classical dressage will not score as high as one trained to look like the one in the second illustration.

Why should a piaffe look different now compared to what it was in the past? Is it a piaffe or not a piaffe?

 

[sbloom]

The Classical dressage tests would be a starting point to help inform the FEI. Reverse the changes - put the "rocker" (the double rein back) back into GP, and no longer allow the horse to come to the vertical in piaffe (I mean this one's laughable, barely a horse is in front of the vertical at any point in pure or eventing dressage).

Don't allow horses to be bred from before the age of, say, 8, so we breed for SOME degree of long term soundness. Keep records of the soundness of the progeny.

Have better stewarding and judging - empower both, I don't care how, how much it costs, it has to be done. And acknowledge that fundamental faults - dropped thoracic sling, dropped poll, face on the vertical, rider unstable/overaiding - should mean serious deductions so it's no longer possible to win against a pairing that show harmonious, biomechanically correct work.

And if there are trot ups, we should not just be looking for soundness, we should be giving qualitative marks for musculature, posture and compensatory movement patterns. The latter is the start of lameness, after all.

 

[pistolpete]

I’d like clenched jaws swishy tails and other calming signals to be noted and marked accordingly. Horses can’t speak or call out in pain but we do know a lot about body language signs they’re just generally ignored sadly.

 

[Burnttoast]

Why can't we just ban nosebands? It's not as if anyone doing a dressage test needs somewhere to attach a standing martingale, and they're only there to make the face look nice ... aren't they ...? I'd love to see some of the current combinations attempting to show GP work without them.

 

[Pointless1]

Pretty sure the horses don't care what colour saddle pad or jacket is used.
More important to sort out the tack that's used.
No flash nose bands, no double bridles, instant elimination for overuse of spurs and heavy hands.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Obviously doesn't answer the thread question re: top levels but I think spurs should be ditched completely at lower levels.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

What about a multi-disciplinary judging team which includes a vet and / or physio?

Not to decide soundness but to actually score comparatively and grade horses for relaxation and way of going? Someone who can speak to the physiology of the horse.

 

[ihatework]

Ok - radical and controversial… and as yet not fully thought through …

But all FEI competing horses need to registered with a single FEI accredited vet. Medical records should be available to review with rules about the amount of medical intervention permitted in the rules.

Now these are elite athletes that do need support. However there are some that receive a volume of intervention that imo is not in their best interests. Now where that line would be drawn and how it would be managed I appreciate possibly unworkable but ….

 

[blitznbobs]

Tbh if half of these changes suggested happened t
It would become prohibitively expensive for most normal people and make the sport even more elitist.

Some comments on some of these things

1) judges are trained and have to pass tests to become listed judges - it’s not just personal opinion.

2) not breeding to passed 8 might be ok for stallions but not for mares - mares need to use their endometrium to keep it ‘youthful’ there is a lot of information on this. Yes some mares are fine later in life but fertility goes down fast after 11 and 12 and keeping a mare for 8 years and getting 3 foals is going to put
Prices up drastically — more elitist again. This might be addressed by more
Embryo transfer from older competing mares into younger mares but this reduces the lines even further.

Dress - I am not in favour of making’ anything goes dress code. This is a mark of respect to the judges to me and is part of the ceremony of competition but black and brown saddle clothes are already allowed in BD.

 

[Goldenstar]

No compulsory double bridle .

 

[Burnttoast]

A decent competition cavasson noseband costs what, £100 ish, these days? That's a nice little saving to be made right there for those struggling with the costs of competitive horse sport.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Inability to score more than a 5 if a horse is BTV during any moments in a specific movement, there is no real biomechanic benefit to being on the vertical or behind it for any movement at any time - I'm thinking that you then shape the goal to be something like this:
Then that would automatically solve the heavy hands, blue tongue, rolkur issues all in one as you rarely see any of the above with a horse that's in front of the vertical? And it has no impact on money or anything else so would not change the cost of the sport, and is black and white enough to be easily enforced/written into the rules.

 

[splashgirl45]

Inability to score more than a 5 if a horse is BTV during any moments in a specific movement, there is no real biomechanic benefit to being on the vertical or behind it for any movement at any time - I'm thinking that you then shape the goal to be something like this:
Then that would automatically solve the heavy hands, blue tongue, rolkur issues all in one as you rarely see any of the above with a horse that's in front of the vertical? And it has no impact on money or anything else so would not change the cost of the sport, and is black and white enough to be easily enforced/written into the rules.

View attachment 143752

Although that would be good in some ways, horses doing certain movements will come behind the vertical naturally , my mare used to piaffe at the gate if she wasn’t bought in first and would be behind the vertical , I never got beyond novice so it wasn’t something she had been taught and she was a failed show jumper nothing to do with dressage. And if she got really excited on a hack she would passage and go behind the bit which was very scarey for me..

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Although that would be good in some ways, horses doing certain movements will come behind the vertical naturally , my mare used to piaffe at the gate if she wasn’t bought in first and would be behind the vertical , I never got beyond novice so it wasn’t something she had been taught and she was a failed show jumper nothing to do with dressage. And if she got really excited on a hack she would passage and go behind the bit which was very scarey for me..

I did think that when I wrote it but then the pay off is that if they go BTV naturally they just aren't top level dressage horses and will have to find alternate jobs or compete at lower levels, or invest into teaching them/changing their biomechanics/strength over time... It sounds fickle but you have to draw the line somewhere. It's much like the Hunter Jumpers in America, they must have their ears forward the whole round, especially over a jump, otherwise they will not make the top levels/big money.

 

[splashgirl45]

I did think that when I wrote it but then the pay off is that if they go BTV naturally they just aren't top level dressage horses and will have to find alternate jobs or compete at lower levels, or invest into teaching them/changing their biomechanics/strength over time... It sounds fickle but you have to draw the line somewhere. It's much like the Hunter Jumpers in America, they must have their ears forward the whole round, especially over a jump, otherwise they will not make the top levels/big money.

You are saying my little horse wasn’t a top class dressage horse good job she isn’t around as she thought she was pretty good

 

[Smitty]

I would love to see snaffle, cavesson, no spurs and no leaning back

 

[criso]

However, I personally feel the white saddle pad looks smart, but wouldn't see an issue with black or brown being added to the mix.

Pretty sure the horses don't care what colour saddle pad or jacket is used.
More important to sort out the tack that's used.
No flash nose bands, no double bridles, instant elimination for overuse of spurs and heavy hands.

You can already use a conservative colour for saddle cloths and jackets can be any dark solid colour as well as tweed for lower levels. There's been some changes for jods/breeches too.

With nosebands, in testing Flashes came out worst but Cavessons weren't far behind. Grackles cane out top followed by Drops. My last horse hated a Cavesson but loved a Drop. Current likes his Micklem better than a traditional bridle with or without a noseband.

With bitless, in theory I agree but not all bitless bridles are equal with some hackamores being very severe so you would need to do a lot of work to classify them first.
,

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

You are saying my little horse wasn’t a top class dressage horse good job she isn’t around as she thought she was pretty good

Of course not, that was not my intended sentiment at all I meant more that going forward under my hypothetical rule, she may have more difficulty than a horse that did not naturally go BTV, and yes that may be unfair on her as she is as equally fabulous as the ones who don't, but I'm sure she wouldn't mind losing a mark to save thousands of fellow horses from being trained with Rolkur

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

There's a difference though between a horse that drops BTV, perhaps momentarily in some movements, and one who is being clearly held there in an unforgiving/inflexible contact?

 

[criso]

Although that would be good in some ways, horses doing certain movements will come behind the vertical naturally , my mare used to piaffe at the gate if she wasn’t bought in first and would be behind the vertical , I never got beyond novice so it wasn’t something she had been taught and she was a failed show jumper nothing to do with dressage. And if she got really excited on a hack she would passage and go behind the bit which was very scarey for me..

I'm not saying this applies to your horse but I've known horses that come btv as an evasion or in times of stress in the same way as some throw their heads up. Different breeds, temperaments and conformation will carry themselves differently. So do we train towards an ideal and mark down both on the basis that either extreme causes the horse to move in a way that may cause problems.

 

[canteron]

I don’t know - but they are going to have to be pretty radical to bring the general public not to associate dressage with cruelty.

 

[splashgirl45]

Of course not, that was not my intended sentiment at all I meant more that going forward under my hypothetical rule, she may have more difficulty than a horse that did not naturally go BTV, and yes that may be unfair on her as she is as equally fabulous as the ones who don't, but I'm sure she wouldn't mind losing a mark to save thousands of fellow horses from being trained with Rolkur

My little horse was just a sparky girl and obviously not a dressage horse but on a more serious note (as I was joking before) I think unless a horse was being held BTV for the whole test it wouldn’t be fair to one that maybe comes behind the vertical occasionally with no force from the rider.. there are many other things that are easier , like a square, still, halt or flashy mover being marked highly while fluffing changes etc . Or uneven steps in piaffe by a flashy being marked higher when a correct piaffe from an average mover hardly gets a 6. Or extended trot with extravagant fronts and shuffling hinds , all very easy to see the wrong things or at least the things I feel are wrong… it’s in the hands of the judges and it would be good if they explained how they come to their marks

 

[little_critter]

For tests at advanced level and beyond:
Any movement that has an underlying score of 6+ can have a coefficient of 1.5 applied to it if the movement is performed with a loop in the rein.
(I add the requirement to be scoring at least 6 so riders don’t start a movement, make a pigs ear of it and chuck the reins at the horse to try to convert their likely score of 4 to a 6)
I also like the idea of a separate ‘tension’ judge who marks the overall test.

 

[GypsGal1718]

Take it back to classical dressage, harmonious riding. You so not need bits and spurs for that, not for spectator friendly flashy movement, to show harmony between horse in riding with them listening to each other