Realistic changes needed to "fix" top level dressage?

splashgirl45 said:
My little horse was just a sparky girl and obviously not a dressage horse but on a more serious note (as I was joking before) I think unless a horse was being held BTV for the whole test it wouldn’t be fair to one that maybe comes behind the vertical occasionally with no force from the rider.. there are many other things that are easier , like a square, still, halt or flashy mover being marked highly while fluffing changes etc . Or uneven steps in piaffe by a flashy being marked higher when a correct piaffe from an average mover hardly gets a 6. Or extended trot with extravagant fronts and shuffling hinds , all very easy to see the wrong things or at least the things I feel are wrong… it’s in the hands of the judges and it would be good if they explained how they come to their marks
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It sounds like you are talking about coming behind the bit - an evasion.
 
1) I would love for the basic, harmless bitless bridle styles to be allowed (sidepull, crossunder, those without leverage) although it would be tricky to allow those if you wanted to ban nosebands. Perhaps saying ‘cavesson only’ might work? On a personal note I would be ecstatic if nosebands stopped being compulsory though. We don’t use them at home, and finding the right one to match the bridle every time we want to compete is such a pain 🤣!

2) Mark down signs of tension at all levels - this alone would make the biggest difference. At beginner level it already is marked down - I’ve had lots of tests with youngsters just out for the first few times marked down because of tension. Fair enough, they were high as kites on the new experiences. Top riders at the top levels should also be marked down for the same.

3) Mark down BTV.

The rare horses that do so well because they gel with their rider, find the movements relatively easy and thus look completely in harmony, should be the gold standard because of that harmony, not because of the flashy movement. No idea how you would word that for marking!
 
The manage to specify what sort of bits arena aren't allowed so it should be no issue to do the same with bitless bridles.
 
Aside from a lot of whats already been mentioned, I would like to see them raise the minimim age for GP. I believe its now 8? However, it was very unusual not all that long ago for a horse to be established at GP anything below 10, now it seems if a horse hasnt made it by 10 its not going to. Might make for more sympathetic training behind the scenes which cant be policed so easily.
 
Lois Lame said:
Spider leg? I've never heard of that 🤔
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Not the worst example I have seen but only from a quick Google - where the back legs don't match the front legs in angle on the extended trot and in other movements so they're largely just flailing about but without the related impulsion

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Oh, yes I know that. Never heard it called spider leg though. Awful business and yet so many people rave about it and it seems to get rewarded? Why? When it's so obviously incorrect and dreadful?
 
LadyGascoyne said:
What about a multi-disciplinary judging team which includes a vet and / or physio?

Not to decide soundness but to actually score comparatively and grade horses for relaxation and way of going? Someone who can speak to the physiology of the horse.
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My experience says otherwise, that they're not trained in movement patterns, and a comment on a post this morning from a vet acknowledged she had very little training that would help her to do this sort of job (it was on a post about pain face in dressage). They primary role is to find pain and fix it.

Rehab trainers, hell yes, but most of them left competitive dressage a long time ago.

splashgirl45 said:
. And if she got really excited on a hack she would passage and go behind the bit which was very scarey for me..
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Training of all sorts should help the horse seek the contact, to not do so is a serious fault in terms of the traditional dressage rules. As soon as the poll closes it has a direct effect on the ability of the hind end to work correctly and so affects the whole horse.

You won't be the only one with this issue, we see it all over, of course, but a good classical/rehab trainer who truly understands contact should be able to (mostly) fix it if you (ie. someone, not really aimed at you) really wanted to pursue upper level dressage. And improving that connection to the hand would improve all work. Interestingly many horses change how they move in the paddock depending on their training.
 
blitznbobs said:
Tbh if half of these changes suggested happened t
It would become prohibitively expensive for most normal people and make the sport even more elitist.

Some comments on some of these things

1) judges are trained and have to pass tests to become listed judges - it’s not just personal opinion.

2) not breeding to passed 8 might be ok for stallions but not for mares - mares need to use their endometrium to keep it ‘youthful’ there is a lot of information on this. Yes some mares are fine later in life but fertility goes down fast after 11 and 12 and keeping a mare for 8 years and getting 3 foals is going to put
Prices up drastically — more elitist again. This might be addressed by more
Embryo transfer from older competing mares into younger mares but this reduces the lines even further.

Dress - I am not in favour of making’ anything goes dress code. This is a mark of respect to the judges to me and is part of the ceremony of competition but black and brown saddle clothes are already allowed in BD.
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No matter how much training and testing a person has, bias will always be a part of a scoring system which is based on a human's opinion of what they are seeing. It's highly naive to think otherwise.

No animal should bred from until it has proven itself. Breeding off potential is why there's so many mediocre horses about.
 
sbloom said:
My experience says otherwise, that they're not trained in movement patterns, and a comment on a post this morning from a vet acknowledged she had very little training that would help her to do this sort of job (it was on a post about pain face in dressage). They primary role is to find pain and fix it.

Rehab trainers, hell yes, but most of them left competitive dressage a long time ago.



Training of all sorts should help the horse seek the contact, to not do so is a serious fault in terms of the traditional dressage rules. As soon as the poll closes it has a direct effect on the ability of the hind end to work correctly and so affects the whole horse.

You won't be the only one with this issue, we see it all over, of course, but a good classical/rehab trainer who truly understands contact should be able to (mostly) fix it if you (ie. someone, not really aimed at you) really wanted to pursue upper level dressage. And improving that connection to the hand would improve all work. Interestingly many horses change how they move in the paddock depending on their training.
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My horse was not a dressage horse , she was very lively on hacks and I was trying to illustrate that passage can be natural for the horse as can coming behind the bit. As she is no longer with us and I am 78 i am unlikely to progress 😀😀
 
splashgirl45 said:
My horse was not a dressage horse , she was very lively on hacks and I was trying to illustrate that passage can be natural for the horse as can coming behind the bit. As she is no longer with us and I am 78 i am unlikely to progress 😀😀
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Oh absolutely, was just trying to address the principles and the rest of this post is absolutely not aimed at you.

CDJ, Carl et al, as an extension of the bow and string theory, have taught a version of LDR for so long that the effect of closing the poll and/or lowering the head just isn't understood.

Long and low can be useful but, if a central part of training, even with an open poll, is likely to be harmful. Sorry the sound's a bit rubbish:

 
splashgirl45 said:
My horse was not a dressage horse , she was very lively on hacks and I was trying to illustrate that passage can be natural for the horse as can coming behind the bit. As she is no longer with us and I am 78 i am unlikely to progress 😀😀
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I'm the same way as my tb in times of excitement defaults to an outline I call startled giraffe.

This is marked down in dressage and is something I try and kindly suggest to him is not ideal.

I'm both cases there is no harm if a brief reaction to a situation but something that you would avoid.

Ultimately it's about agreeing a way of training that promotes a way of going that promotes improvements to a horse's physique and long term health, not causes problems that have to managed to keep them sound.
 
sbloom said:
Interesting seeing James Cooling's (pretty well respected bit and bridle fitter and I think RWYM trainer) comments on FB that getting rid of nosebands or at least actually implementing rules on tightness would directly go a long way to preventing a lot of the other stuff.
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I have thought this would be a simple and cheap fix for a number of issues and something I think it wouldn't be possible to 'get around' at home.
 
From where I’m sitting it’s too late - at least for the Olympic dressage. The public - who are the ones buying stuff from the sponsors so their opinion is everything- see circus tricks and what they consider highly unnatural behaviour coupled with videos of entitled people doing bad things. Even if they changed dressage to zero tack people like that are likely to find ways to inflict cruelty if it means they win.
 
I haven’t seen any of the officials with the noseband measuring tool and no one seems to be checking them either . Don’t ban them just apply the rules as they stand now and no one would be able to misuse them . Allow those who don’t want to use them but also be allow those that do
 
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