Really struggling with newly backed youngster. Where to go from here?

[Vekoma]

Earlier in the year I bought a 4yo direct from the breeder. She has had some basic handling done with her but that’s it and was pretty nervous.

I spent lots of time handling, introducing her to tack, doing some ‘baby’ lunging and progressed to me being legged up and laid over her and a bit of walking around. All went with no problems and she has turned out to have a lovely calm temperament.

At this point I was going away on holiday so I thought it would be best to send her to someone for backing/breaking properly who has the experience and time to lay down these foundations.

Unfortunately I feel this person ended up not having the help or time to lay down the foundations properly. She did lots of long reining but took three weeks for her to get on board only after I questioned what progress was being made. I went up there a couple weeks later and was told she was ok to have a mooch around the paddock on and that she had had a small trot following another horse on a hack the day before……..I got on and this little mare was not moving forward whatsoever and felt withdrawn and tense. Then the person on the floor got behind her to send her into trot at which point this little mare exploded broncing and deposited me on the floor. It was clear she didn’t understand a thing, either leg or gentle steering.


The trainer had her for a couple more weeks but reverted back to long reining and following another horse down the lane. At this point (after 8 weeks of being there) I brought her home as I didn’t trust the work was being done and the bill was racking up to 1200 without a lot to show for it although we did see her follow another horse around a stubble field and have a short trot around an arena.

I got her home, had a saddle professionally fitted and went back to doing some ground work and take everything back to basics as she was never lunged at the trainers place and it was clear she didn’t understand a riders aids.

she is lunging really well now and responding well to my voice in all three paces. However when I get on board (with someone on the end of the lunge line) it’s difficult to get her to move and when we do get walking it’s very stilted and not forward.

I will freely admit I have lost my confidence big time after the broncing issue so perhaps I need to be more persuasive but I’m worried she’s not happy and will explode again. I wouldn’t class myself as a novice rider after riding for 30 years and having got ridden away 4yo’s in the past and brought them on to successful eventing careers but this is the first time I have had a completely unbroken one.

I’m absolutely gutted I have wasted the summer, a lot of money and still only at the point I can manage basically a horrid walk on the end of a lunge line and that this little mare will end up with problems.

where do we go from here? Do I put my brave pants on and get the lunger to get her moving? Send her away again to someone else?

I’m aware this lunging and then me getting on routine is going to make her sour and I had really hoped to spend the winter hacking her about and doing some very baby schooling but I don’t feel safe to take her out when she doesn’t know or respond to rudimentary aids?

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

Introduce the aid for forward from the floor use a lunging whip and tickle were your leg will sit till she moves then praise when she does x

 

[bonny]

I wouldn’t get on on the lunge in your situation and I certainly wouldn’t want the handler to chase the horse forward. I think it sounds like the answer would be to get your horse out hacking providing you’ve got a steady horse to go out with. I think young horses go much better for being out, seeing the world and they go forward because they are with another horse.

 

[Vekoma]

I wouldn’t get on on the lunge in your situation and I certainly wouldn’t want the handler to chase the horse forward. I think it sounds like the answer would be to get your horse out hacking providing you’ve got a steady horse to go out with. I think young horses go much better for being out, seeing the world and they go forward because they are with another horse.

Completely understand your advice but……

Would this be sensible even though we don’t have her walking/trotting stopping/turning in an enclosed environment?

Part of me thinks get my big girl pants on and just do it….the other part of me worries that could go very wrong indeed

 

[bonny]

Completely understand your advice but……

Would this be sensible even though we don’t have her walking/trotting stopping/turning in an enclosed environment?

Part of me thinks get my big girl pants on and just do it….the other part of me worries that could go very wrong indeed

A young horse will follow another one though, do you have a steady companion to go with and somewhere quiet to hackout ? It sounds to me like your mare would be happier going in straight lines and seeing the world with a friend. I’ve always done that with newly backed horses and never had a problem.

 

[SEL]

You sound like you've got someone with you on the ground? Can they lead you?

I'm big on voice commands or sound commands (click, kiss noise) with babies. I get it established on the ground then with a rider on board. Having someone walk next to you when you're on top can help with confidence

 

[PurBee]

Completely understand your advice but……

Would this be sensible even though we don’t have her walking/trotting stopping/turning in an enclosed environment?

Part of me thinks get my big girl pants on and just do it….the other part of me worries that could go very wrong indeed

For your confidence, do you have another horse and rider to follow in an enclosed environment, for some mini sessions of the basics like turning, stop, trot, walk, before heading out for a hack?

It sounds like the 1st trainer didnt do as promised, and whatever has been done has caused tension, in you both now. If you have another trusted, chilled-out horse and rider to follow in a small field/sand school - horses mimic each other easily usually, especially young unsure ones take cues from older confident horses.

When mini sessions with another relaxed horse have been a success, then try a mini session on her own, when she should have more confidence. Dont want to train a horse to be dependent on other horses being there to be a safe ride, so if the sessions solo and accompanied can be mixed, her confidence can naturally grow.

It sounds like you were backing her gently and doing well, and the trainer undid a lot of your progress. I feel for you, thats very frustrating. I’d see it as starting again, lots of praise, go slowly and i think you’ll both easily build confidence again.

I second sel’s advice, voice aids help the horse learn a common language of instruction so physical aids can remain light.

 

[TheMule]

Whilst the trainer doesn’t sound like they've done a great job, it is very possible (in my opinion, preferable) to back a horse nicely without lunging it and starting in the arena. Mine get backed and hacked, always out with a good lead horse- that’s how they learn the aids in a much more natural way because the motivation to go forwards is there.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I just felt this wave of "OMG stress" jumping out at me when I read your post OP.

You feel your youngster should be doing this, should be doing that. You are it seems beating yourself up about the whole situation.

You know what I would advise?? (and please note I am no expert).

But what I would say is to Turn Away for the Winter.

Then see how she comes back in the Spring.

Sometimes it is just TIME that is needed. Time for you both to process things, and for her to mature in both body & mind.

 

[NR88]

I think you need a good professional to send her to.

Then, not only will they build a solid foundation, you can watch her being ridden and doing as you wish then get lessons from the pro while she's still at their yard to help your confidence levels.

As The Mule has posted it is doable to start a horse with no arena and without lunging but it reads like that "pro" didn't have the necessary skills to do that. That is why they stuck to long reining and couldn't demonstrate the horse being ridden away and left you to get on.

As your confidence has had a knock I wouldn't suggest "manning up" and "getting it done". It reads like the mare didn't have a good start with the pro and they are often harder second (third, fourth) time around to start. IMO it should only be confident and capable riders getting on whilst backing horses and putting firsts into them.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

An option could be, if your worrying about the broncing, is to get some like Guido ( the chap that does horses at liberty and stunt riding etc) out to ride her. My friend had a very explosive mare who she came off badly. She could mount her but when asked to move the horse went nuts. Guido came out a couple of times and solved the issue calmly and sensitively. If your horse is lacking a huge chunk of education this perhaps isn't the answer but if your confident she has had ' enough' groundwork and a good introduction to riding it might be worth a try.

 

[millitiger]

I think, moreso from the fact you are a bit worried, I would look for another professional to get her going properly.

Whereabouts are you?
Perhaps people could recommend someone close by? Hopefully that way you could visit more often and be more of a part of the process but have the pro doing the first steps and show you before you get on.

 

[MissTyc]

Having recently witnessed my friend's sensitive youngster getting backed, I am more in awe than ever before at how good some professionals can be. In your situation, I would find a more competent professional to get the foundations in place and then turn away for a bit. You need to feel confident riding your horse, and confidence is easily killed.

My friend's horse has had the best start on the ground, yet reacts to pressure in a violent way so other than sit on and a bit of walking up and down the yard she couldn't progress as he scared her. He didn't DO anything, but she could tell he would "go nuts/bronc/whatever" is pushed. The professional working with him has within 10 days got him trotting up and down a lane looking quite chilled. Importantly,. this guy has very competent help on the ground as well as nanny horses to give equine confidence. I don't know if he will or won't be safe for her to ride any time soon, but he's gaining skills and confidence and that is key.

 

[maya2008]

You need a person on the ground to lead you. Provided your horse responds well to voice only (no whip needed) you can now transfer this to under saddle. So you get on and sit all floppy and relaxed and do NOTHING while the leader gives the ‘walk on’ command and encourages the horse forwards. Those first few steps when they have no idea how to move with a human and completely lack muscle to carry you, are a very dicey stage. Slower is better. Aim for the first day would be a couple of steps, then treat (from leader) and get off. Use treats if needed to cajole them forwards, a bucket of feed if needed - got to get a few steps so they realise they can. Then a few more steps the next day and so on, until they are walking forwards confidently. Once you have confident movement with rider, you can ask to move forward from rider’s voice, then gentle leg aids + voice. I have found horses are often happier doing this on grass (a nice firm surface they are used to, that doesn’t shift under foot).

 

[irishdraft]

It sounds like you have someone on the ground with you, so what I would do is get on board and have hopefully the confident helper walking by her head to reassure her & you . If she lunges to voice commands then she should understand them with you on board, this is how I've always started my young horses. I agree personally it's best to get stop, start, turn etc in the arena so you do have some semblance of control. Then venture out with another horse or same person walking & hopefully you can get over this unfortunate episode. Of course this all needs to be done carefully ,& slowly . I would then turn away for a few months .

 

[Red-1]

If you don't feel confident, then I don't think you are the person to do the job.

I would certainly use a different professional! I would expect either the horse to have progressed more or for you to have an explanation/exploration as to what the issue may be.

If you have a new pro, who is trustworthy, with a good, large, surface, then now would be OK to continue work. However, as things haven't been easy, I think I would personally turn away for now, bring her back in spring.

I was interested that a saddle was only fitted to her after the issue started, so I think I would turn away now and have a saddle fitted before re-commencing work. Then re-checked as she gets fitter with the new pro.

 

[southerncomfort]

It sounds like the backing yard let you down to be honest.

Things haven't been done as well as they could have and you and your horse have both been left feeling tense and nervous.

If it were me I'd stop riding for now and spend between now and the new year doing groundwork (not lunging), and leading her out for walks. I cannot overstress how confidence building this. When I bought my youngster I spent months walking him out in hand. He saw every scary thing their is to see out hacking and he learned to use his brain rather than his fight or flight instinct. He is the boldest hacking pony now, but more importantly we fully trust each other.

After that, backing him was simple because he knew I'd never put him in a situation where he would come to harm.

The other thing i did was find an instructor who is very experienced with newly backed horses.

If you still don't feel like you want to ride her away, their is no shame at all in paying someone to do it for you although ideally I'd have them come to you.

 

[sport horse]

I would stop riding her if you are nervous - that will transmit to the horse. Give her a break and get her booked in to someone good - perhaps in the spring. The less you do at this point the easier it will be to put right. Whereabouts are you - I can recommend someone in the Home Counties who has done several for me and a friend. They spend their life backing horses - nothing else!

 

[Cortez]

If I were you I'd be looking for a full refund from the "professional". Then I would find a REAL professional and get the poor thing properly ridden away.

 

[Palindrome]

In the short term, could the person on the lunge have treat and entice the horse to go forward? That's what I did with one of mine who was reluctant to move forward but very food orientated. She knew the cues but she wasn't willing to comply and could become fairly explosive.
Once she walked for the helper, I had him give treats only when the horse responded to my aids.

 

[tristar]

Earlier in the year I bought a 4yo direct from the breeder. She has had some basic handling done with her but that’s it and was pretty nervous.

I spent lots of time handling, introducing her to tack, doing some ‘baby’ lunging and progressed to me being legged up and laid over her and a bit of walking around. All went with no problems and she has turned out to have a lovely calm temperament.

At this point I was going away on holiday so I thought it would be best to send her to someone for backing/breaking properly who has the experience and time to lay down these foundations.

Unfortunately I feel this person ended up not having the help or time to lay down the foundations properly. She did lots of long reining but took three weeks for her to get on board only after I questioned what progress was being made. I went up there a couple weeks later and was told she was ok to have a mooch around the paddock on and that she had had a small trot following another horse on a hack the day before……..I got on and this little mare was not moving forward whatsoever and felt withdrawn and tense. Then the person on the floor got behind her to send her into trot at which point this little mare exploded broncing and deposited me on the floor. It was clear she didn’t understand a thing, either leg or gentle steering.


The trainer had her for a couple more weeks but reverted back to long reining and following another horse down the lane. At this point (after 8 weeks of being there) I brought her home as I didn’t trust the work was being done and the bill was racking up to 1200 without a lot to show for it although we did see her follow another horse around a stubble field and have a short trot around an arena.

I got her home, had a saddle professionally fitted and went back to doing some ground work and take everything back to basics as she was never lunged at the trainers place and it was clear she didn’t understand a riders aids.

she is lunging really well now and responding well to my voice in all three paces. However when I get on board (with someone on the end of the lunge line) it’s difficult to get her to move and when we do get walking it’s very stilted and not forward.

I will freely admit I have lost my confidence big time after the broncing issue so perhaps I need to be more persuasive but I’m worried she’s not happy and will explode again. I wouldn’t class myself as a novice rider after riding for 30 years and having got ridden away 4yo’s in the past and brought them on to successful eventing careers but this is the first time I have had a completely unbroken one.

I’m absolutely gutted I have wasted the summer, a lot of money and still only at the point I can manage basically a horrid walk on the end of a lunge line and that this little mare will end up with problems.

where do we go from here? Do I put my brave pants on and get the lunger to get her moving? Send her away again to someone else?

I’m aware this lunging and then me getting on routine is going to make her sour and I had really hoped to spend the winter hacking her about and doing some very baby schooling but I don’t feel safe to take her out when she doesn’t know or respond to rudimentary aids?

sounds a disaster.

i would teach her to lunge properly, so she can do actual work on the lunge, then i would do 3 sessions a week of lunging, even intro a few trotting poles, and long rein well to complete the session, all in full tack, monday wed fri.

tuesday and thursday i would take her her out for a walk in the bridle, round the farm or down the road if poss.

i would lean over her, from a block but not get on, she needs someone who does not fanny around, but who is calm and concentrating on the job in hand, basically showing her the way, i would
do all this as routine for at least a month, kind of grab her and be confident.

the main idea is to establish a pattern of work, a habit, a time together in which she knows the perimeters and looks forward with confidence to your time together, totally immerse her in all the baby horse fun and learning, including any and every little game, small jumps, going around obstacles etc. loads of voice commands and reward

then you can look to the future, and ask have you got the confidence, the time, and a plan of eventually seeing where you are going.

when you are happy with her on the ground, make a decision turn away and work twice a week, or send away for backing, and if you do send away, make sure you see her ridden by the backer before you get on yourself

under no circumstances should get on now, maning up is not a thing, its the horse that tells you when its ready to place its trust and let you ride it, and it will respect you and not play up because when you say do something it will know what to do, its learned it lunging and long reining thoroughly, and when you say oiy behave it will listen and not chuck you off

i never underestimate the time and effort put in before backing, if done right, when backed and then ridden away the horse should know how to walk forwards from day one, not need a lead and not need to follow another horse

 

[Vekoma]

Thankyou everyone for your kind and thoughtful replies.

As you can imagine I’m pretty devastated this is the point we are at at this moment in time, especially when I thought I was doing the right thing by sending her to someone else to do it. Parts of it have been done well. She came home feeling much more ‘grown up’ to handle and in the time she has been back home I have got her lunging really happily and well, including introducing some trotting poles to keep things varied.

I took some of the advice on board and got her off the yard in hand today around the fields and tracks following the route that will be the aim for her first hacks and she was a star. It sounds daft but I think we both grew in confidence with each other simply by having a ‘good day’

There is absolutely no rush for this little horse so this whole saga isn’t really about ‘she should be doing xyz by now but I’m disappointed that it’s clear as day there are important building blocks that are missing but I’m prepared to put the work in to getting everything right.

Im going to explore if I can find a really good instructor (preferably one who will also ride) to come out 2/3 times a week and go from there. If they feel they need to have her on site for a while I’ll be happy to do that. She has loads of good qualities to like about her, I just think the poor thing knows nothing and after me having a fright it’s a less than ideal situation but hopefully one that can be put right

 

[tristar]

Thankyou everyone for your kind and thoughtful replies.

As you can imagine I’m pretty devastated this is the point we are at at this moment in time, especially when I thought I was doing the right thing by sending her to someone else to do it. Parts of it have been done well. She came home feeling much more ‘grown up’ to handle and in the time she has been back home I have got her lunging really happily and well, including introducing some trotting poles to keep things varied.

I took some of the advice on board and got her off the yard in hand today around the fields and tracks following the route that will be the aim for her first hacks and she was a star. It sounds daft but I think we both grew in confidence with each other simply by having a ‘good day’

There is absolutely no rush for this little horse so this whole saga isn’t really about ‘she should be doing xyz by now but I’m disappointed that it’s clear as day there are important building blocks that are missing but I’m prepared to put the work in to getting everything right.

Im going to explore if I can find a really good instructor (preferably one who will also ride) to come out 2/3 times a week and go from there. If they feel they need to have her on site for a while I’ll be happy to do that. She has loads of good qualities to like about her, I just think the poor thing knows nothing and after me having a fright it’s a less than ideal situation but hopefully one that can be put right

so glad you had a nice day with her.

that is what i think about building blocks, placing one on top of another, a strong foundation. x

 

[Caol Ila]

Not every backing yard is useful for every horse.

My little Highland was backed and ridden away, all of twice, then stuff happened (Covid, etc.). He sat in a field for about a year. Then he was sent away to a pro yard for rebacking. By all accounts, it did not go well. I don't know what exactly went down (the horse was not my horse at the time), but his previous owner admitted he had "tantrums" at the backing yard and the trainer allegedly recommended that he seek out a career as an in-hand therapy pony or a dude string trail horse, where he could mindlessly follow other horses and not actually be ridden ridden. In fairness, he is good at in-hand and following people/horses.

When I first tried the horse, he did not steer and he was petrified of being in the arena. Despite these things, he did not actually try to kill me or chuck me off his back, so I reckoned there had to be something there that could be trained, whatever the pro trainer said. I bought him.

A little over a year later, he steers, he goes sweetly in the outdoor arena (we won't talk about the indoor), and hacking alone is an improving picture.

When I'm working with him or with my (still, lol) unbacked four-year old, I make sure that they are cool with each step for progressing to the next. They might pick up something quickly, which is nice, but until they are totally relaxed with whatever it is, I don't push them onwards. I repeat and repeat until they are completely chilled. I had to reverse and repeat steps with my four-year old because she's smart, acquired new stuff quickly, so I fired on to the next thing before she got comfortable with the previous thing. Whoops. Learned not to do that. I wonder if your trainer made the same mistake with your youngster and asked her for too much too fast. I think the pro who trained (using that word loosely) my Highland did. These pros feel like they have to do the training within 30 or 60 or 90 days or whatever, and that may not be the horse's timescale.

 

[maya2008]

Perhaps if you posted your rough location, someone on here might be able to recommend a good trainer?

 

[throwawayaccount]

Personally I’d turn away for the winter & then restart end of march, at a competent and well recommended yard x

 

[Wonderling]

Mine went away to a trainer, the same trainer everyone else I know uses for backing and I continue with lessons from them. I did do the first bit as I wanted to be the first one to do the milestones but I knew the consistent getting go was better off with a pro.

This situation you are in just wouldn't have happened with a decent trainer, find someone capable, get plenty of recommendations, if they are booked up and busy and you need to wait, do that and stick in your comfort zone until you can get in there, its so important now that the next bit goes well.

2/3 times a week for initial back isn't enough, its a small amount every single day for a few weeks, then it can be lessened.

I do feel for you, its stressful when your confidence isn't quite there and you dont have the right help, which is all you need, the RIGHT help. Someone that has backed tonnes of horses over many years, not someone who thinks they can do it.

 

[Hallo2012]

i have never ever been a fan of chasing them forward (with a rider) on the lunge. i know it works for a lot of big yards on the continent but.........

once she is happy with you being on board i use tiny circles to bump start them, so dont try and lead her forward instead lead her round to the side on a tight circle so her balance forces her to move, just 2/3 steps then praise like mad.

rinse and repeat until leader can make the circle a bit bigger. i never normally have a leader so just end up doing crooked snakes all over the school and every time they stop i use a turn to get going again.

one i can very roughly walk where i want i go out hacking and have a trot behind a very sensible horse up a hill. that gets the GO aids more ingrained and then you are away

i rarely have anyone to do more than hold them when i first lean over in he stable, after the initial sit i am usually flying solo. I have done mine, plus 4 others this year and ferreting round in tiny wobbly circles hasnt failed me OR got me bucked off.

 

[NSD]

An option could be, if your worrying about the broncing, is to get some like Guido ( the chap that does horses at liberty and stunt riding etc) out to ride her. My friend had a very explosive mare who she came off badly. She could mount her but when asked to move the horse went nuts. Guido came out a couple of times and solved the issue calmly and sensitively. If your horse is lacking a huge chunk of education this perhaps isn't the answer but if your confident she has had ' enough' groundwork and a good introduction to riding it might be worth a try.

Id recommend Guido too, he was the only one that could deal with a very explosive gelding of mine

 

[Cortez]

i have never ever been a fan of chasing them forward (with a rider) on the lunge. i know it works for a lot of big yards on the continent but.........But what? Big yards on the continent seem to be able to turn out horses doing the job alright-ish (tongue firmly in cheek).

once she is happy with you being on board i use tiny circles to bump start them, so dont try and lead her forward instead lead her round to the side on a tight circle so her balance forces her to move, just 2/3 steps then praise like mad. So, not a fan of "Ride them forwards, and ride them straight" then, eh? Wonder what Podhajsky was on about.....

rinse and repeat until leader can make the circle a bit bigger. i never normally have a leader so just end up doing crooked snakes all over the school and every time they stop i use a turn to get going again. Or, train them how to go, stop and steer BEFORE you climb on board: works for me.

one i can very roughly walk where i want i go out hacking and have a trot behind a very sensible horse up a hill. that gets the GO aids more ingrained and then you are away

i rarely have anyone to do more than hold them when i first lean over in he stable, after the initial sit i am usually flying solo. I have done mine, plus 4 others this year and ferreting round in tiny wobbly circles hasnt failed me OR got me bucked off. I used to break horses for a living, I prefer to back without people on the ground, and I've never had a breaker buck, EVER. I don't subscribe to your methods and wouldn't recommend that anyone follow them.