Really struggling with newly backed youngster. Where to go from here?

[Leandy]

As you are not confident to do this yourself, I would send away to a properly verified experienced trainer to ride away for you. Make sure you are then confident riding your horse at that trainer's yard before bringing her home. Alternatively, it may be cheaper to get a professional to come to you and get the horse doing what you want. It shouldn't take more than a handful of weeks either way, with a good trainer.

 

[Sparkeyboy]

Can you get a professional to come and help you with the mare at your yard? I backed my mare (a long time ago) we got so far and then when you'd mount she'd explode and bronc until you came off. I got a local, highly recommended lady who took her back to basics and we re-backed her together and ironed out the issues.

I'd be careful about putting your brave pants on and just getting on with it, if you come off again it might knock your confidence or worse, you might get hurt. Send her to someone or see if someone can come and help you, it'll help build your confidence back up with her. Good luck x

 

[Hallo2012]

actually they don't. big yard on the continent regularly sell horses to unsuspecting amateurs that turn out to in no way be safely broken, just taught to go go go with a limpet jockey hauling their head in, and when a marginally less stable or less strong jockey buys it and gets it home away from the indoor arena, all hell breaks loose.

the way i do it teaches them to go forward without needing chasing or kicking (both of which are more likely to get you bucked off)

different strokes and all that. its working for mine and its worked for some tricky badly broken re-do ones too. I'm not saying its the only way, but its a way thats worked repeatedly for me.

i don't subscribe to being rude for no reason but apparently you do

 

[Cortez]

actually they don't. big yard on the continent regularly sell horses to unsuspecting amateurs that turn out to in no way be safely broken, just taught to go go go with a limpet jockey hauling their head in, and when a marginally less stable or less strong jockey buys it and gets it home away from the indoor arena, all hell breaks loose.

the way i do it teaches them to go forward without needing chasing or kicking (both of which are more likely to get you bucked off)

different strokes and all that. its working for mine and its worked for some tricky badly broken re-do ones too. I'm not saying its the only way, but its a way thats worked repeatedly for me.

i don't subscribe to being rude for no reason but apparently you do

How kind. My experience of breaking horses on the continent differs from yours. As do my experiences of having to sort out badly- broken-at-home amateur jobs. I have never encountered a horse professionally broken on the continent that was as you describe, perhaps you are getting them from dodgy sources?

 

[Hallo2012]

How kind. My experience of breaking horses on the continent differs from yours. As do my experiences of having to sort out badly- broken-at-home amateur jobs. I have never encountered a horse professionally broken on the continent that was as you describe, perhaps you are getting them from dodgy sources?

I'm not buying them, but its all over FB, all over forums, all over every livery yard i teach at-horses bought from abroad that are basically taught to go forward at any cost and are not educated or taught to think before reacting. Fine when a 6ft+ pro rider is on board, not fine when their new petite less brave rider gets on board.

But I'm just repeating myself, you do it your way which is great if it works for you and your horses. I do it my way and all the ones I've done are good solid safe easy citizens and doing well for their amateur riders. I wouldn't do it your way an you wouldn't do it mine, as applies to many things in the horse world.

 

[Cortez]

In that case perhaps it is the riders that need better education, not the horses?

 

[Hallo2012]

In that case perhaps it is the riders that need better education, not the horses?

i really doubt that every single one of these riders is incapable, why are you SO determined that this never happens when every single pro i know, confirms it does, has see it with their own eyes. Its not just hearsay or me making it up. Albeit there is no more reason for you to believe me ,than for me to believe you


But whatever. for the last time, I will keep it doing it the way it works for me and you can keep doing it your way and all our horses will be happy.

 

[Cortez]

i really doubt that every single one of these riders is incapable, why are you SO determined that this never happens when every single pro i know, confirms it does, has see it with their own eyes. Its not just hearsay or me making it up. Albeit there is no more reason for you to believe me ,than for me to believe you


But whatever. for the last time, I will keep it doing it the way it works for me and you can keep doing it your way and all our horses will be happy.

Because I am a pro, have worked for many years on the continent, doing exactly the job that you are so heavily criticising, and have an insight into the process. The way of early training that you are describing is diametrically opposed to proven methods of educating horses to GO FORWARDS under the rider, which is the exact problem being discussed on this thread. I can see that this is not necessarily the desired result if you are training for a perhaps less adept rider, as you have described, but it IS the way to do it if you are to have a hope of producing a horse that will progress athletically. I agree, you do you, but I have no desire to ride a horse in that way.

 

[Hallo2012]

Because I am a pro, have worked for many years on the continent, doing exactly the job that you are so heavily criticising, and have an insight into the process. The way of early training that you are describing is diametrically opposed to proven methods of educating horses to GO FORWARDS under the rider, which is the exact problem being discussed on this thread. I can see that this is not necessarily the desired result if you are training for a perhaps less adept rider, as you have described, but it IS the way to do it if you are to have a hope of producing a horse that will progress athletically. I agree, you do you, but I have no desire to ride a horse in that way.

less adept isnt really fair, i would just say completely and utterly normal/average (which no offence to the OP is what is being discussed here, not a superstar amazing rider on a Olympic potential horse, but just *one of us*)

the way they were started hasn't stopped either of my two progressing, one was schooling towards baby PSG before a lorry accident necessitated a year off, and the other has gone from not touched 3yo to some really solid results at BD prelim and is starting elem work at 4yo. so that seems to put to bed the idea that it MUST be done your way to progress. Both are good in the contact and good off the leg so trundling about very very quietly and learning GO as a gradual thing hasnt done them a jot of harm and id go as far as to say any form of chasing forward would have ruined the 4yo before he had even started, he needed to go one step at a time initially and before i knew it he was doing a circle at a time and now he's a very confident little chap but he would have been overwhelmed with just being told to get on forward and go.

however i don't expect you to agree there could possibly be other ways, so i am outta here before it all gets totally derailed.

 

[ycbm]

i really doubt that every single one of these riders is incapable, why are you SO determined that this never happens when every single pro i know, confirms it does, has see it with their own eyes. Its not just hearsay or me making it up. Albeit there is no more reason for you to believe me ,than for me to believe you


But whatever. for the last time, I will keep it doing it the way it works for me and you can keep doing it your way and all our horses will be happy.

There was a video posted on the forum about 3 years back of a chestnut being backed (in front of an audience) for the first time this way in Germany i think it was. Horse hassled to go forward, forward. It all looked so unnecessary when it could have been done more quietly.

I've ridden to no particular level but I've backed quite a few, always done it the way you describe above, rewarding a few steps, never been deliberately bucked off one yet and always somehow managed to produce horses which go forward willingly for an amateur rider.

I'll see if i can find the video.
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[ycbm]

Got it! Caused lots of controversy and it was 10 years ago not 3, doesn't time fly! And Dutch, not German.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/what-are-peoples-views-on-this.621311/

 

[ycbm]

Earlier in the year I bought a 4yo direct from the breeder. She has had some basic handling done with her but that’s it and was pretty nervous.

I spent lots of time handling, introducing her to tack, doing some ‘baby’ lunging and progressed to me being legged up and laid over her and a bit of walking around. All went with no problems and she has turned out to have a lovely calm temperament.

At this point I was going away on holiday so I thought it would be best to send her to someone for backing/breaking properly who has the experience and time to lay down these foundations.

Unfortunately I feel this person ended up not having the help or time to lay down the foundations properly. She did lots of long reining but took three weeks for her to get on board only after I questioned what progress was being made. I went up there a couple weeks later and was told she was ok to have a mooch around the paddock on and that she had had a small trot following another horse on a hack the day before……..I got on and this little mare was not moving forward whatsoever and felt withdrawn and tense. Then the person on the floor got behind her to send her into trot at which point this little mare exploded broncing and deposited me on the floor. It was clear she didn’t understand a thing, either leg or gentle steering.


The trainer had her for a couple more weeks but reverted back to long reining and following another horse down the lane. At this point (after 8 weeks of being there) I brought her home as I didn’t trust the work was being done and the bill was racking up to 1200 without a lot to show for it although we did see her follow another horse around a stubble field and have a short trot around an arena.

I got her home, had a saddle professionally fitted and went back to doing some ground work and take everything back to basics as she was never lunged at the trainers place and it was clear she didn’t understand a riders aids.

she is lunging really well now and responding well to my voice in all three paces. However when I get on board (with someone on the end of the lunge line) it’s difficult to get her to move and when we do get walking it’s very stilted and not forward.

I will freely admit I have lost my confidence big time after the broncing issue so perhaps I need to be more persuasive but I’m worried she’s not happy and will explode again. I wouldn’t class myself as a novice rider after riding for 30 years and having got ridden away 4yo’s in the past and brought them on to successful eventing careers but this is the first time I have had a completely unbroken one.

I’m absolutely gutted I have wasted the summer, a lot of money and still only at the point I can manage basically a horrid walk on the end of a lunge line and that this little mare will end up with problems.

where do we go from here? Do I put my brave pants on and get the lunger to get her moving? Send her away again to someone else?

I’m aware this lunging and then me getting on routine is going to make her sour and I had really hoped to spend the winter hacking her about and doing some very baby schooling but I don’t feel safe to take her out when she doesn’t know or respond to rudimentary aids?

Whilst it's very likely that your filly has just been backed badly by people you paid to do it, the surgeon who operated on mine said he sees them at 4 when they won't accept a rider, having been born with kissing spines. A friend's horse was similar at backing, without the bucking, and was later diagnosed with kissing spines.

Whatever else you do with the good advice above, I would now have her back x rayed before I was prepared to sit on her again myself (which I wouldn't at my age and I completely understand why you wouldn't either). I hope she can be resolved and you start enjoying her soon.

ETA I would also bear in mind that there may be something else physical going on and that the yard who backed her did not so much get the job wrong as sense that she would explode if they pushed her. My own horse that was barely taught to trot by the person I paid to back him exploded when I got him home. He had PSSM. A friend's horse went to a pro and six weeks later she had not sat on him, saying he "wasn't ready". He was turned away and went to another later and was backed successfully, but there was always something tense in his behaviour. Two dealers refused to sell him because he wouldn't go forward. He wasn't noticeably lame, but when investigated he had a stifle so badly damaged that he was PTS at 6.

I hope there is absolutely nothing wrong with your mare, but I would want to consider the possibility that the first backing yard were reacting subconsciously to things they were picking up.
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[Palindrome]

Got it! Caused lots of controversy and it was 10 years ago not 3, doesn't time fly! And Dutch, not German.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/what-are-peoples-views-on-this.621311/

From what the guy is wearing (western full chaps and jeans), the horse's appearance (sway back, worried chewing, very high head carriage), it doesn't look like the backing of a young horse by a conventional trainer. It looks more like a "natural horsemanship"/western type retraining demo. There are trainers in the UK that train like that too (Jason something if I remember well?).

In any case, you can't derive an all trainers do that on the continent from 1 video or a few horses. The continent is in fact made of different countries, which have has much differences between them than between the UK and other European countries. It's bit like if I'd say, "oh, they do it like that on the northern islands" and i would include the UK, the Republic of Ireland and Iceland.

 

[ycbm]

Nevertheless, approval was expressed of the method on that thread which was, I thought, very relevant to the discussion about sending forward which was going on on this one.

Sending forward a newly sat on horse is not used by every successful backer.
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[Goldenstar]

I just to added one of my homebreds was a little difficult to ride away we took time and all was fine a little down the line I noticed a few things a slight feeling of reluctance to walk down hill the inflexibility in the length of the canter stride and long story short she had KS .It was found on PM it was before they could X-ray a horses back .
I have a vet who does alot of KS surgery and he says they are coming round more and more to thinking that far more horses start out with it than they used to think .

 

[ihatework]

Hi OP - what a pain the pro messed up, costly for you and not great for the horse either. It happens, pro’s are just people who do it for a living, doesn’t necessarily mean they are good at their job.

My take on this is when backing horses I have seen different approaches work just fine. From my experience breakers have their system that works for them and some will scoff others! The good ones will rein in their ego ?

I would be inclined not to turn this horse away until you have undone the ‘wrongs’. I also wouldn’t be trying to do the work yourself I’m afraid if you have any nerves/doubt - which it sounds like you do.

In your shoes I’d find another pro. Get the horse back on track. Ride the horse a bit from the pro yard yourself. Then if you want to give horse a break that would be the time to do it.

Another thing is to use a pro that understands your level of riding, and what you want to do. The horse has to be produced for you!

If you give an idea of where you are maybe someone on here can provide suggestions

 

[maya2008]

Very much as above, the pro needs to produce the type of horse you want. I’ve produced two steady, novice-proof ponies, and I went about the process very differently for them. They had to be confident in themselves in their environment, with changes, with the rider. I taught them to make their own (safe) decisions where needed, and gave them the time and space to develop their own confidence. Both now look after their novice riders and can be trusted to help and make sensible decisions to keep their rider safe. The backing/riding away process was much longer for them.

 

[MagicMelon]

The person who had her sounds like they had this issue too which is why they seemed to be following another horse so much. For me, I would probably stop going on the lunge - ride round the edge of the arena and introduce little fun things like cones to steer round and even the odd pole on the ground (introduce this without rider on lunge / free schooling first) then it might perk up a bit and it'll take the pressure off you worrying about the cruddy walk. However if you're at all nervous, and you're scared of asking for any forwardness because it might explode well thats not going to help the situation at all. You could consider getting one of those crazy guys out - you know, theres usually one in each area who has no fear and can get on and encourage forward then sit the explosion and work through it. Get him to come to you rather than sending away, then you can keep an eye on the whole thing. But ensure you get the right person who is really praising and kind, not someone that will boot it in the ribs etc. Horse obviously needs confidence, I think its the most important thing early on.

Also I found having a smaller area to work in to begin with gave me more confidence when I had a horse I was backing that also exploded once when I got on her early on. It means they havent the space to get up any speed for example, yes they can still buck you off but I felt it was a bit more secure. Like if you can section off half your arena for example. If you have another horse then great, ride behind it nown and again but also break off and rejoin behind it again in the school. Loads of people say hack, personally Id never ride a horse outwith a secure area until I knew I could fully control it in all paces and knew it wouldnt freak out. I think being backed is exciting enough, without the need for experiencing vehicles, flapping plastic bags etc. and the risk you could fall off and horse goes awol - no thanks!

 

[Vekoma]

Small update…..we’re out on the lunge now with me on board and getting a nice forward walk and today felt she was striding forward confidently enough to ask for trot and we got it successfully!

much of the forward input was ‘quietly’ encouraged by the person on the ground with the lunge whip as it seems she still doesn’t quite compute that legs mean ‘go’ but it’s a start, and hopefully with repetition and patience the penny will drop.

as my only experience of trotting this horse previously resulted in me being decked before we even got into trot it’s a big step and just by having her moving forward has made me feel a whole lot better and a lot more confident. Hopefully we can continue this work and once the basics are there, get her out of the arena and fingers crossed the rest will follow

I’ve enlisted a friend with a quiet horse who is also going to come into the arena with us next time to follow about with the aim of that person being our first hacking buddy in the near future.

I *think* she’s just slow on the uptake and a lot of the work done at the backing yard has relied on the use of other horses rather than understanding the riders aids which is where the problem currently lies.

I know others have mentioned the possibility a physical issue and certainly if we struggle on, or we experience any more explosive resistance then I’ll certainly go down that route.

So far so good. It’s slow progress but it’s progress and that’s okay

 

[Barton Bounty]

Small update…..we’re out on the lunge now with me on board and getting a nice forward walk and today felt she was striding forward confidently enough to ask for trot and we got it successfully!

much of the forward input was ‘quietly’ encouraged by the person on the ground with the lunge whip as it seems she still doesn’t quite compute that legs mean ‘go’ but it’s a start, and hopefully with repetition and patience the penny will drop.

as my only experience of trotting this horse previously resulted in me being decked before we even got into trot it’s a big step and just by having her moving forward has made me feel a whole lot better and a lot more confident. Hopefully we can continue this work and once the basics are there, get her out of the arena and fingers crossed the rest

I’ve enlisted a friend with a quiet horse who is also going to come into the arena with us next time to follow about with the aim of that person being our first hacking buddy in the near future.

I *think* she’s just slow on the uptake and a lot of the work done at the backing yard has relied on the use of other horses rather than understanding the riders aids which is where the problem currently lies.

I know others have mentioned the possibility a physical issue and certainly if we struggle on, or we experience any more explosive resistance then I’ll certainly go down that route.

So far so good. It’s slow progress but it’s progress and that’s okay

I always say take it nice and slowly and that way no mistakes are made ? sounds like your moving positively forward! Very pleased for you

 

[ycbm]

Excellent news, so pleased for you both

 

[Cortez]

Well done, onward (and forward...).

 

[KittyH]

Long rein on all your hacking routes. That should give you the basic aids and get her going forwards happily, then hop on and have someone hack with you the first few times. If your confidence is shot then rotate solo long reining with hacking with a companion for a winter. I'm a massive fan of long reining out and about and hacking.