Reasons for horse kicking out under saddle?

[Marigold4]

Young horse, backed last summer, winter off, gently started again this spring. He's now nearly 5. Over the winter he changed shape and his treeless Solutions saddle was no longer right for him. Possibly one sign of this was him kicking out with right hind under saddle but he also was fussing with his head. Stopped and got well-regarded saddler out. New saddle with different base but same make now fitted. He seems happy in his saddle at home. We can confidently walk, trot and canter round the field.


We've now started doing arena hires. He's fine loading, travelling, ground work, being tacked up, standing at the mounting block so I don't think he's overwhelmed by his surroundings but when I get on, the first few minutes are quite hairy. He's kicking out with his right hind and occasionally threatening to bronc. Then he settles down but I'm reluctant to push trot and canter until I know why he's doing this.
Anyone else had a horse kicking out like this? With the new saddle he only does this at the arena. Is it tension or could it be that the saddle still isn't perfect and the extra tension of being somewhere new makes it harder for him to put up with it?

I should also say that I had his back, loins and withers x-rayed before I started backing him and the well-known sports vet who did them said you don't often see x-rays as good as these, so not kissing spine. I know it could develop later with wrong training but I have done lots of long lining and groundwork with him in a correct frame, so I don't think it can be.

 

[ycbm]

Was he doing this in the winter or only since spring? Right hind issues at this time of year is now recognised as often being due to an inflamed gut due to spring grass. There was a pointer to a really good article in another thread by Tiddlypom, if you search "microbiome". Do you have him on anything for gut support?
.

 

[flat3]

Was he doing this in the winter or only since spring? Right hind issues at this time of year is now recognised as often being due to an inflamed gut due to spring grass. There was a pointer to a really good article in another thread by Tiddlypom, if you search "microbiome". Do you have him on anything for gut support?
.

I'd be really interested to read this but I can't find it???‍

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think it's on this post by AdorableAlice. Well worth a read.

I read this recently, very interesting. Admittedly I am researching everything known to man about grass and intolerance in horses, as I seem to have one who has gas colic if she just looks at grass.

☆☆Spring Grass + Performance Issues☆☆
With the weather finally improving, lush spring grass is appearing in our fields. It is important to manage this new growth closely as it can not only lead to colic and laminitis but also can cause tension and reduced performance. It is this latter issue relating to performance that we will be discussing in this article.
************************************************
At this time of year a lot of the cases that I see have one thing in common…….a hind end tension. It can be displayed in many ways.
The symptoms can include:
• Lumbar muscle tension
• Stiff hind end
• Flank sensitivity
• Girthiness
• Canter issues (often left canter)
• Pushing saddle to left
• Trot to canter transition issues
• Toe dragging
• Reduced propulsion from behind
• Not “tracking up”
• Hindleg limb flight towards midline of body (medial)
• Unhappy with farrier lifting hind limbs
• Kicking out/bucking
• Overly hormonal seasons
• Tension in right side of poll
WHY IS THIS?
There are multiple factors involved in the performance issues above. Most centre around the involvement of the hind gut.
GUT ENVIRONMENT (bacteria and acid)
Horses are hind gut fermenters. They have a large hind gut that is used to break down all the fibres in their diet. The main area for this digestion is in the caecum (located on the right flank of the horse). The caecum is a 30-45 litre vat which is full of special bacteria that can digest the fibre (cellulose) in the horse’s diet and turn it into absorbable products.
The sugars in the lush grass create an acidity in the hind gut as they are digested by the bacteria. This change in acidity (lowering pH) upsets the delicate bacterial balance in the gut which can lead to bloating, upset/sensitive tummy, diarrhoea/constipation (IBS).
ORGAN-SPINE LINK
However, the issue does not stop there….importantly there is a strong neurological relationship between the spine and the organs. This neurological relationship is based on a viscero-sensoric link. The organs are supplied by nerves from certain portions of the spine. Irritation of the organs causes irritation of the related spinal cord sections which in turn leads to local muscular tension as the spinal nerves also innervate the surrounding muscles.
This relationship goes both ways. An organ issue will reduce the mobility of the section of spine linked to it but if you have reduced mobility of the spine you can have organ issues as a result. It is why people with IBS have tight backs and why people who have tight backs are more likely to have IBS.
So horses who already have back tension are far more susceptible to these changes and those with an upset gut can have tight backs…
WHY THE RIGHT HIND?
The involvement of the caecum which is located on the right flank is why there are more issues on the horse’s right hand side. It is the right hand that often has increased tension/reduced mobility and why we have the symptoms listed above.
FASCIAL TENSION
Another contributing factor is that the increased acidity (acidosis) of the hind gut causes increased contraction of the fascia. This leads to local tension and even whole body tension as it spreads. The horse feels generally tight with increased tone and reduced mobility.
This increased, often unilateral tension can put abnormal strain on certain limbs (often right hind) which can produce an unsoundness. This may present as a lameness but care should be taken as to whether that unsoundness is due to a genuine lameness on that limb or is it just a symptom of the tension due to the hindgut. It may well be that addressing the hindgut removes that unsoundness and therefore the need for veterinary investigation.
WHAT CAN BE DONE?
MANAGE THE GRASS: This may involve restricting turn out to limit the time in front of the new spring grass. Supplementing with hay is often useful.
SUPPLEMENT THE HINDGUT: Hindgut supplements can be used in conjunction with tight management of the grass. Good herbal supplements along with buffers can be given to assist the hindgut. (Hindgut buffers should not be confused with gastric/stomach supplements). I also like to give milkthistle to keep the liver tip top during the spring grass onslaught. Pro and prebiotics are helpful too.
MOBILITY: Maintaining spinal mobility is important as those horses with a tight spine are more likely to get gut issues. Mobility can be maintained through bodywork but also through correct exercises both in-hand and ridden.
TESTING: The hindgut can be monitored with faecal blood tests, checking faecal pH and also looking at the bacterial population through faecal sampling.
As ever if your horse is showing signs of performance issues it is always important to evaluate the WHOLE HORSE to ensure that all factors are considered.















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Also more on here.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/has-anyone-had-the-equibiome-test-done.796673/

 

[Marigold4]

Was he doing this in the winter or only since spring? Right hind issues at this time of year is now recognised as often being due to an inflamed gut due to spring grass. There was a pointer to a really good article in another thread by Tiddlypom, if you search "microbiome". Do you have him on anything for gut support?
.

Thanks for replying. That could be relevant. I started having that thought too about hind gut as I typed RIGHT hind into the post.

Not ridden during winter, rebacked in spring. I did have him on equisure hindgut supplement last autumn as recommended by Tom Beech, but then I discovered he recommends it to most clients so I wondered if I was being "had" and stopped. I'll give it another go and see if makes a difference.

 

[ycbm]

Equishure, last time I looked, was sodium bicarbonate buffered in oil. I think quite a few people just feed sodium bicarbonate/calcium carbonate. Personally I feed brewers yeast or yeasacc for its proven anti inflammatory effects. And aloe vera if I think a horse is at all girthy.
.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Equishure, last time I looked, was sodium bicarbonate buffered in oil. I think quite a few people just feed sodium bicarbonate/calcium carbonate. Personally I feed brewers yeast or yeasacc for its proven anti inflammatory effects. And aloe vera if I think a horse is at all girthy.
.

I think it’s a bit more than that. But expensive for what it is. And think are some threads re trying to replicate it.

i don’t think Tom Beech recommends equisure for all horses.

 

[milliepops]

yeah i would expect that just feeding bicarb, it would be dissolved in the stomach. KER say that the encapsulation they use means it is supposed to get to the hindgut.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think that both equisure and succeed can make a very positive difference to some horses, but the horse then needs to stay on them long term. As soon as you stop feeding either, the horse reverts.

My mare is on succeed, which was a life saver at the time (recommended by vet). What I'm hoping for with the equibiome approach is that my horse's hind gut flora can be reset to within healthy parameters, and she should then not need such supplements, although I expect to continue to be careful with her diet.

We'll see. Very early on so far, but looking good.

 

[ycbm]

yeah i would expect that just feeding bicarb, it would be dissolved in the stomach. KER say that the encapsulation they use means it is supposed to get to the hindgut.

I think this is true but there are also a wealth of other stomach/gut settlers that are just powders, mostly made of calcium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate and tricalcium phosphate (?) that also claim good results. I guess if you reduce acidity in the stomach it's going to be reduced right through the gut?

I never had much success with Settlex, but I have seen great results with yeast, or rather I've seen bad things happen to feet very quickly when I got a batch they wouldn't eat.

 

[Melody Grey]

A bit non- science but I used to replicate the action of Equishure by shaking bicarb in oil and then syringing it. I can’t say how effective it is compared to the real thing, but it does have some positive effect on hindgut acidosis (I was pH testing poo!).

 

[Iznurgle]

Following on with the hindgut suggestions, I've had great experiences with the Keyflow Pink Mash. It's low energy, 5 min soak, seems to be very palatable (even the dog loves it), and anecdotally I've had it sort out persistent upset stomachs. It's beetroot based, with pre- and pro-biotics, and I'd really rate it.

 

[ycbm]

A bit non- science but I used to replicate the action of Equishure by shaking bicarb in oil and then syringing it. I can’t say how effective it is compared to the real thing, but it does have some positive effect on hindgut acidosis (I was pH testing poo!).

I did the same. I remember it working, or at least the horse reduced his spiky reaction to my right leg aid.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Following on with the hindgut suggestions, I've had great experiences with the Keyflow Pink Mash. It's low energy, 5 min soak, seems to be very palatable (even the dog loves it), and anecdotally I've had it sort out persistent upset stomachs. It's beetroot based, with pre- and pro-biotics, and I'd really rate it.

Whereas pink mash aggravates my mare's hind gut. It took me a while to realise this. Don't know which ingredient(s) caused the trouble, the soya hulls, the linseed, the beetroot or whatever, but she was much better when I eventually stopped feeding it. And then the other two also did better when I stopped giving it to them.

 

[Marigold4]

I'm picking up some equishure tomorrow, bu another thought could be the girth. I'm much more relaxed at home than at the arena hire where anything could happen - today a barking dog rushed in to the arena from seemingly out of nowhere! I wonder if I do my girth up tighter at the arena because he's more unpredictable there - and he's not comfortable with the tighter feel. Going back next week, so I'll experiment.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

A bit non- science but I used to replicate the action of Equishure by shaking bicarb in oil and then syringing it. I can’t say how effective it is compared to the real thing, but it does have some positive effect on hindgut acidosis (I was pH testing poo!).

What oil did you use please and what quantities of both do you mix

 

[Melody Grey]

What oil did you use please and what quantities of both do you mix

It was quite a few years ago to be honest, so I don’t remember exactly. I used to do the shaking in an old jam jar and put it into a large syringe. I did post on here about it at the time, so try searching?

I added peppermint oil to try to appease the horse a little. Corn oil would be appropriate- I feed this now for ulcer horses. There are some oils (sunflower I think?) that irritate the gut though so do a little research first- you don’t want to use something counter productive!! There are also plenty of more expensive, refined oils that would work too if I remember correctly.

 

[sbloom]

I guess if you reduce acidity in the stomach it's going to be reduced right through the gut?

There's an argument at the moment that reducing acidity in human stomachs is the wrong thing to do for ulcers, reflux etc, that antacids don't fix anything and in fact make it worse. As the stomach is supposed to be acidic and the hind gut not, I would not look at it as reducing the acidity in the system, I want the acidity to stay IN the stomach and treat the hind gut for its issues. I think. Not an expert, just my (dare I say it) gut instinct from reading around human digestive issues. I think we have much to learn.

 

[ycbm]

If you've got acid on the stomach, though, that's squirting out into the gut. I guess what all the Settlex type powders are trying to do is start it off lower going into the first part of the gut in the hope that it will be lower when it reaches the hind gut? I never found them very helpful.

Omeprazole is still the drug of choice for stomach ulcers in horses, I wonder if that's going to change in future, and what to. I swear by aloe vera for mild ulcery symptoms.
.

 

[sbloom]

Surely fixing the acid escaping would be the preferred way, especially if there are possible issues with reducing the acidity in the stomach? I'm talking in abstract terms here...

An antacid is trying to lower the stomach acidity and, to my knowledge, is absolutely not intended to be for fixing small intestine issues.

I think fixing the hind gut is more likely to fix ulcers, than lowering stomach acidity is likely to fix hind gut issues.

 

[Marigold4]

UPDATE thanks to all who have replied. Put this young horse on Equishure hind gut supplement and no kicking out when ridden this week. So those who guessed that he may be uncomfortable right side due to digestion issues could well be right! Also doing girth a little looser. And he's had his teeth done again. Anyway, just thought I'd update in case anyone else has same issue and to thank those who put me on to this.

 

[stormox]

Mine does it in some arenas- I think its due to mites in her heels

 

[Spanny]

Surely fixing the acid escaping would be the preferred way, especially if there are possible issues with reducing the acidity in the stomach? I'm talking in abstract terms here...

An antacid is trying to lower the stomach acidity and, to my knowledge, is absolutely not intended to be for fixing small intestine issues.

I think fixing the hind gut is more likely to fix ulcers, than lowering stomach acidity is likely to fix hind gut issues.

I read something along these lines recently - they were looking at PPI drugs in humans, which reduce stomach acidity. Apparently it can lead to microbiome changes elsewhere in the gut. There's an article here if you want to read more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6580352/