Redefining how we view natives?

[Foxford]

Having just read the H&H article about the native breeds at the recent dressage championships, I felt compelled to write my own take. As a paid up "believer" in native breeds being able to thrive in almost any competitive environment, I was dismayed at some of the language used.

Some thoughts!
1. Why are we surprised that a native breed could perform and execute a series of movements in between some white boards? Do people believe the warmblood dominance excludes any other breed from the placings, or even a place at the table? People's choice of horse is there own business, but it doesn't mean you get to be dismissive of someone else's choice - if it's out there doing the job.
2. Breed characteristics. Tough, sound and mostly sensible? I'm sold! Having seen many friends and yard neighbors go through the soundness rollercoaster with all kinds of breeds, I would like to stack the odds in my favour. I can't afford a string of horses and so I'll do what I can with what I've got.
3. Rules. Having a native breed isn't against any rules. Well maybe unless you want to be a flat racer? But come on, why are we writing breeds off on the basis of some unwritten expectations? Who decides what is a dressage horse? Why do they get to dictate that idea to others?
4. Reality. Having recently done some training at an exam and competition centre, I was told by the proprietor that the majority of dressage competitors she sees are hairy/native types - all the way to medium, where the numbers start to decline. So why are we still surprised to see them achieving good results?
5. The Partnership. Obviously behind every native or non-native equine competitor, there is a rider. The rider presumably chose that horse or pony, but that choice doesn't tell us how many times a week they ride, what experience they have or what their competitive ambitions are. Why do we celebrate the native "succeeding" but kind of ignore that behind that rosette someone has put in the hard work of getting the horse to whatever level.

I'll stop now, but I probably could go on. I've felt like this for many years and I'm not sure if things are changing? Probably because I will keep choosing and working with native breeds and what other people do is up to them. But when I turn up to a competition with whatever shaped horse, I would like to be judged on how many jumps are left standing or my execution of a test and not on how much bone or hair my horse might have.

 

[mariew]

I'd love a native. They are all so small though! I would need something 15.1/2 ISH at least. Do exmoors or NFS ever go oversized? I think dressage has gone way off into showman territory rather than actual dressage really which is a shame.

 

[marmalade76]

It feels quite patronising, doesn't it? One thing to remember is warmbloods, along with TBs and probably coloured cobs are ten a penny because they are the only breeds/types that are bred in any significant number these days.

 

[Spiritedly]

I have a DHP who has competed BD in the past with an old loaner and was nearly always placed as, whilst he may not be flashy, he has a consistent frame and paces and will try anything you ask him to do. He would much rather jump though and his current loaner is looking at doing an unaffiliated ode on him this year....unfortunately at only 12.3 he can't do affiliated despite pinging his way round 90 - 100 courses ..and I've always said that it's a shame my New Forest has such a violent dislike of being ridden as his paces are amazing and I think he would have done really well between the white boards.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

These are all from about 15 - 20 years ago . I was a trailblazer - what can I say lol !
14hh Fell , BD Elementary



13.3hh Highland . BD Novice



14hh Highland , BD Area Festival , 3rd Novice . He was the only pony there , never mind the only native . I am laughing because Sir Lee Pearson had just made a rather caustic ( but very funny ) remark about Highlands as RD ponies . This pony competed up to Elementary and won most of his points at that level .




And because , technically , they're also a native breed , my 18.1hh Clydesdale who competed BD Elementary . If you think the attitude towards native ponies is bad - the leading line in this article proclaims " We've seen everything now ! Shire horses being ridden ! " . This was a long time before riding heavies became popular !

 

[sarcasm_queen]

I'd love a native. They are all so small though! I would need something 15.1/2 ISH at least. Do exmoors or NFS ever go oversized? I think dressage has gone way off into showman territory rather than actual dressage really which is a shame.

Connie’s definitely do, mine is 15.2

 

[Cloball]

I've seen a 15.2 fell recently.

I can't wait to get my fell out doing some dressage but she is definitely not sensible she has a huge walk and trot and an uphill little canter. She's taught herself changes loves going sideways and is sharp as anything off the leg.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

I've seen a 15.2 fell recently.

I can't wait to get my fell out doing some dressage but she is definitely not sensible she has a huge walk and trot and an uphill little canter. She's taught herself changes loves going sideways and is sharp as anything off the leg.

When my Fell did her first Prelim she was so enthusiastic about it that the first comment on the mark sheet ( where I was supposed to halt at X ) said
" Piaffe not required at this level " .

 

[Kunoichi73]

I'm not experienced in dressage but I've never understood the snobbery about breeds. Surely it's about the movements and accuracy. It shouldn't be about flashy leg flinging, so theoretically any horse trained for these should be able to compete and win.

 

[Cloball]

When my Fell did her first Prelim she was so enthusiastic about it that the first comment on the mark sheet ( where I was supposed to halt at X ) said
" Piaffe not required at this level " .

Tempi changes not required. She is into screaming at the moment as well

 

[SEL]

Well Milliepops isn't on here any more but she was at PSG training level with her Welshie before injuries stopped her ridden career.

Mine is a cob - likely with a fair amount of Welsh given his paces and brain (neurotic!). It's harder for him than many of the dressage bred horses but I'm sure if we both dedicated ourselves to more flatwork there's nothing to stop him progressing (we both love blasting around the countryside too much). Bit condescending by the journalist really - dressage is supposed to be about correct training. I was chuffed to get this comment on an e-riders

 

[SpeedyPony]

I'd love a native. They are all so small though! I would need something 15.1/2 ISH at least. Do exmoors or NFS ever go oversized? I think dressage has gone way off into showman territory rather than actual dressage really which is a shame.

As said above, Connies can make that height, as can Welsh sec Ds (some studs, like Maesmynach, even breed 16hh+ welshies). Highlands and Dales can be 14/14.2, but will generally take up the leg well compared to a finer breed.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

I'd love a native. They are all so small though! I would need something 15.1/2 ISH at least. Do exmoors or NFS ever go oversized? I think dressage has gone way off into showman territory rather than actual dressage really which is a shame.

I'm 5' 8" .

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

Tempi changes not required. She is into screaming at the moment as well
[/QUOTE]

Dressage to her own music !

 

[Burnttoast]

I'm not experienced in dressage but I've never understood the snobbery about breeds. Surely it's about the movements and accuracy. It shouldn't be about flashy leg flinging, so theoretically any horse trained for these should be able to compete and win.

This. I don't understand why judges, who are supposed to be experienced horse people, forgot what correct training looked like as soon as they saw an ankle flashed (rather like the Victorians?!). Just subsumed into the system I suppose.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

All my horses bar two have been natives or native crosses. Needless to say the two that werent natives were the ones I spent the most money on and were in a sick note more often

My native of choice are welshies or their crosses, can’t beat them in my book although if I had my own land a Connie might sneak its way into my herd of welshies

 

[Dales]

My Dales was 15.1hh. I don't think that sort of height is particularly unusual. All things being equal I'd have preferred him a hand shorter!

 

[Foxford]

Isn't it interesting that we think of natives as exclusively the kind of ponies you'd find in an M&M class. Sadly I grew out of most of them a long time ago. At 5'10"! I'm not particularly heavy, but I find I don't feel "balanced" on anything under 15hh and have since had many happy years with a NF x TB who was 16.2, a chunky RID also at 16.2 and now an Irish Cob who'll likely get to 15.3. Kudos to the heavy horse riders, as I do think they get the most raised eyebrows!

I think there is some truth in the saying, "if you can't see it, you can't be it". But at the lower levels there is plenty of it to see - and now with social media we can find examples of different breeds getting to PSG and above. But the media coverage seems to focus on how unusual this is or how we should be shocked/amused?! I just think I'm seeing a disconnect with our grass roots and the central purpose of the discipline vs the industrialization of dressage as a sport. Are natives seen as plucky underdogs, throwing a spanner in the PR of the dressage breeding machine?! An anachronistic throw back to half a century ago?

 

[SEL]

This. I don't understand why judges, who are supposed to be experienced horse people, forgot what correct training looked like as soon as they saw an ankle flashed (rather like the Victorians?!). Just subsumed into the system I suppose.

One of our instructors at camp was a list 4 judge and told me it's hugely frustrating to see flashy warmbloods marked above correct riding on "normal" horses. It seems expression draws the judges eye far more than it should.

 

[eahotson]

These are all from about 15 - 20 years ago . I was a trailblazer - what can I say lol !
14hh Fell , BD Elementary

View attachment 159488

13.3hh Highland . BD Novice

View attachment 159489

14hh Highland , BD Area Festival , 3rd Novice . He was the only pony there , never mind the only native . I am laughing because Sir Lee Pearson had just made a rather caustic ( but very funny ) remark about Highlands as RD ponies . This pony competed up to Elementary and won most of his points at that level .


View attachment 159492

And because , technically , they're also a native breed , my 18.1hh Clydesdale who competed BD Elementary . If you think the attitude towards native ponies is bad - the leading line in this article proclaims " We've seen everything now ! Shire horses being ridden ! " . This was a long time before riding heavies became popular !
View attachment 159493

And Lee Pearson should think before he opens his mouth.

 

[Burnttoast]

One of our instructors at camp was a list 4 judge and told me it's hugely frustrating to see flashy warmbloods marked above correct riding on "normal" horses. It seems expression draws the judges eye far more than it should.

It's depressing, as they're the very people we expect to see past that stuff.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

And Lee Pearson should think before he opens his mouth.

He wasn't being rude at all , perhaps I just worded that badly . What he was basically saying was that Highlands were popular at RDA ( steady weight carriers etc ) but that they're not always the saints they're made out to be . And also , for himself , he likes something sharper/more sensitive . It was just an observation about Highland personality , but it was the way he said it that was very funny ( won't repeat it on here ) , I completely understood what he meant and I totally agreed with him !

 

[MuddyMonster]

@SEL I was just thinking to myself, I've always had better judge feedback with my native through on-line dressage than I have in person. Online I've been rewarded much more for correct training and accuracy than in real life. Although @Cloball mine too enjoys putting in his own flying changes and squeels in canter

Absolute kudos to anyone taking a native up through the levels

My native is epic as he's tenacious & fun - he can be a little sharp sometimes but nothing most semi-decent riders would worry about - with a huge amount of self preservation. He's tried his hoof at everything from dressage, showing to jumping, EGB rides and Trec (the last 3 much more his style) which play to his strengths of living his best life bombing around the countryside. He's brave and forward enough to take out for hours over difficult terrain but will still prance (low level) around the school but is sensible enough to take to the pub or picnic ride etc.

If I had transport, I have no doubt he'd hold his own at endurance as have friends that do ensurance and they love him.

He does has a very strong no & doesn't get so much upset but gets offended, which has made being on part livery sometimes hard in the past as generally people think he's 'easy' and then try to 'make' him do something and all of a sudden they have a clever 13.3hh fluffy legged pony showing them up with no intention of giving them a let up as he's having a hoot, unless they grovel profusely.

I do wonder if the teaching of handling native breeds is much less & so people seem less clued up to deal with one now? So they stay slightly siphoned off from other horses.

I will say, the one's I know seem to thrive on more work, rather than less. Which I wonder is less helpful for some people too?

There is just some out and out snobbery though of bigger = better, though. I've been told twice on my current yard X mares (of I have to say always fairly average looks and movement) is far too posh for him if he's gone to say hello. My stock answer is 'Oh cool, so is yours from the top 10 performance stallions of their breed in the UK too? No? Never mind, come on pony, they aren't posh enough for you', walk off laughing & enjoy their shocked/miffed expression

I have zero intentions of ever owning another horse, natives all the way for me.

 

[Cloball]

@MuddyMonster oh I've had a similar issue on part livery I can tell who has been leading her last and by her manners she lulls you by being angelic the first time and then slowly pushes the boundaries. Sometimes I do feel a bit silly at 5ft 6 with my tiny 13.2 but once I'm on and we leave them for dust it's fine

 

[sbloom]

I've saddle fitted a LOT of natives, they're super versatile (though as a response to a comment Exmoors might be the least likely to go overheight and can be the trickiest breed to handle and ride, though can be absolute super stars!)

I do think we face conflict within this though, that the breeding is moving away from type, especially with the emphasis on height and athleticism. I know most breed societies have "camps" within them, one on each side of the debate and probably more besides! For instance look at pics of Fells from years ago and you see a lot more length of leg and a more all round pony, compared to the more compact/chunky proportioned and hairier modern type (broad generalisation of course, there will be exceptions).

It can be challenging not only to sit well on a wide shape, and to find a saddle that can fit you correctly (especially to be able to sit over your feet) and be short enough for the pony's back.

 

[Cloball]

Interesting you say that @sbloom I assumed D was a more modern type as she's quite sporty and leggy for a fell, with actual withers and only extra wide maybe she's old fashioned. She is very hairy though like her sire.

 

[First Frost]

I adore natives and have been involved with Highlands and Connemaras my whole life. I have also owned, ridden and competed TB's and warmbloods. Now I am a bit older I am quite happy to stick with my native ponies. At the moment I have a Connemara and a Connemra XTB. Both fabulous versatile ponies. The Connie is now 21 and has been with me since a 4 year old, he is of very traditional type. He has competed to BD elementary and BE100 being very successful. He is still going strong. He is the most fabulous ride, fun, brave, always happy to have a go at anything. He usually got a 7 for his paces in dressage.
My sister used to breed highlands. Properly trained they were always forward going and had great paces. I used to hunt a highland in Cotwold country. He was often asked to give other horses a lead over tricky fences. He was great fun but no plod!

Our native breeds should be celebrated. Correctly educated, they make fabulous allrounders with much more ability than many people think. They are also clever and have great self preservation, which I love especially when covering difficult ground.

 

[Celtic Fringe]

This. I don't understand why judges, who are supposed to be experienced horse people, forgot what correct training looked like as soon as they saw an ankle flashed (rather like the Victorians?!). Just subsumed into the system I suppose.

My 14.3 ID /cob successfully completes at PSG with a gold rider. Some of the comments from judges and stewards are hilarious - 'are you in the correct arena ?' etc. Judges often seem flummoxed by seeing something that is not a flashy warmblood and either score him mid- 60s all the way through or more rarely understand that he is very correct in his training and way of going and score him fairly with a wider range of marks. He has competed at regionals more than once but will not get to nationals as the competition is very fierce and a huge moving warmblood will also score more even if not as consistent. His work needs to be incredibly varied (eating, hacking alone, hacking in company, leading other horses, eating, nanny to youngsters, in-hand, pole work, eating, TREC-style obstacles, demos) to keep him happy so we keep relaxed about occasional dressage competitions so that horse and humans can just enjoy the outing.

 

[Caol Ila]

Didn't read the HHO article, but in my experience, natives are popular and well-liked. And there should be more. I think one issue is that they are rare breeds and not easy to find, so if you are buying horses on a limited budget, finding something like an already-backed Highland is incredibly difficult. When I bought Fin, I already had one unbacked youngster to my name and needed another one like a hole in the head (oh...wait...I also had that). I just wanted something to ride. I got very lucky, finding a Highland at all, even if he was an ex-feral of dubious breeding and more dubious training. Most people wouldn't take that messs on at all, but he looked like a f*()ckin dream horse compared to the unhandled pregnant 2yo filly. My standards may have been very low at the time.

For people who have, you know, standards....the breeds are so rare that it isn't easy.

I also know a lot of people who want a taller, leggier horse. That seems to be a thing.

 

[winnie]

I'd love a native. They are all so small though! I would need something 15.1/2 ISH at least. Do exmoors or NFS ever go oversized? I think dressage has gone way off into showman territory rather than actual dressage really which is a shame.

I've had 3 Dales Ponies all over 15hh, still got one of them. Not uncommon with this breed.