Redefining how we view natives?

[sbloom]

Interesting you say that @sbloom I assumed D was a more modern type as she's quite sporty and leggy for a fell, with actual withers and only extra wide maybe she's old fashioned. She is very hairy though like her sire.

There have been various posts on FB etc over the last few years showing typical natives from the first half of the 20th century and they're mostly lighter and less hairy. Both cobs and natives (appropriate breeds) seem to be being bred for more hair which as we all know has its significant downsides, pretty though it is for sure!

 

[catkin]

Well, if you want flashy movement you don't actually need to go much further than a Welsh cob
And Fellboy has real rock-god vibes
And if you want fancy breeding, native bloodlines go back centuries if not millenia...

What's not to like for the true connoisseur?

 

[southerncomfort]

There have been various posts on FB etc over the last few years showing typical natives from the first half of the 20th century and they're mostly lighter and less hairy. Both cobs and natives (appropriate breeds) seem to be being bred for more hair which as we all know has its significant downsides, pretty though it is for sure!

I remember their being a heated discussion on the Fell Pony FB group last year regarding feathers, and how the current trend for Shire-like feathers is against the breed standard.

 

[Cloball]

I wish mine had less hair it's so much maintenance having a look on allbreedpedigree and mines ancestors definitely got hairier in the 80s and a quite light and pony like (not heavy/cobby) in the 50s.

 

[catkin]

Is it still true that FEI ban any horse under 14.3hh from competing in their dressage comps?


Hmm, what they scared of.......

 

[malwhit]

I remember seeing a class of native ponies being shown on TV. It was probably Olympia but I can't remember as it a few years ago.

I sat watching it & thinking Crufts has come to the horse world. The leg hair and manes would have put an Afghan or Poodle to shame

 

[marmalade76]

There have been various posts on FB etc over the last few years showing typical natives from the first half of the 20th century and they're mostly lighter and less hairy. Both cobs and natives (appropriate breeds) seem to be being bred for more hair which as we all know has its significant downsides, pretty though it is for sure!

Afraid I have to disagree with the last few words there, I'd rather my ponies did not look like they're wearing flairs.

 

[P.forpony]

I've had all variety of Welsh, an exmoor, nf, Highland, and Connie. I currently have tbs and a shetty.
They were all completely different with their skills and abilities. The Welsh cobs were sharper and more reactive than anything else including the tbs!
Connie coming in a close second and having back and hock issues to boot.
Exmoor and Highland won the scarily intelligent awards but you still had to take things slowly, they refuse to be rushed and needed the time to analyse and think through anything new.
Saddle fit was difficult for everything except the nf and one of the Welsh Cs.

I think natives are underrated mostly because for some reason warmbloods are seen as more 'serious' horses and its then just down to fashion and ego.
They also seem to have taken over from the old school TB×native, it usually produced a really nice, sensible, sturdy and athletic animal that you hardly ever see now.

 

[Gloi]

I remember their being a heated discussion on the Fell Pony FB group last year regarding feathers, and how the current trend for Shire-like feathers is against the breed standard.

Very much so. It used to be that the Fells were meant to have straight silky feather and straight mane and tail hair and these days there is so much coarse curly feather about that would have once been marked down.

BTW I'm planning on going to the Fell stallion show on Saturday. It will be interesting to see how things have changed since I was last there. I competed there several times through the 80s and have been to watch a few times since but not since before covid.

 

[Widgeon]

I remember their being a heated discussion on the Fell Pony FB group last year regarding feathers, and how the current trend for Shire-like feathers is against the breed standard.

That is very interesting because I did wonder how those ponies used to cope, working and being ridden in the incessant rain and clag of a lakes winter. But it sounds like....they had a lot less hair back then! Much more practical.

 

[Widgeon]

BTW I'm planning on going to the Fell stallion show on Saturday. It will be interesting to see how things have changed since I was last there.

Do tell us what you thought of it afterwards, I'd be really interested to hear

 

[SO1]

I'd love a native. They are all so small though! I would need something 15.1/2 ISH at least. Do exmoors or NFS ever go oversized? I think dressage has gone way off into showman territory rather than actual dressage really which is a shame.

NF average height is around 13.2 bigger ones hard to find over 14h. There is no trend to breed over height. Connie's are huge now it is easier to find a 15h plus than the smaller ones.

When I was looking for another NF after I lost Homey very rarely saw anything 14h or over. Bert is a small 13.2, Homey was a large 13.3.

 

[Dave's Mam]

I'd love a native. They are all so small though! I would need something 15.1/2 ISH at least. Do exmoors or NFS ever go oversized? I think dressage has gone way off into showman territory rather than actual dressage really which is a shame.

The preferred upper height for an Exmoor 1s 12.3hh, Dave is oversized at just over 13hh, however he is built like a tank.

 

[mariew]

Im not sure they should be bred bigger either. It's a shame you don't see many native x tb anymore (not including Connie x ). I'd probably just go ID rather than an oversized Connemara.

 

[PurpleSpots]

NF average height is around 13.2 bigger ones hard to find over 14h. There is no trend to breed over height. Connie's are huge now it is easier to find a 15h plus than the smaller ones.

When I was looking for another NF after I lost Homey very rarely saw anything 14h or over. Bert is a small 13.2, Homey was a large 13.3.

On Horsequest at the moment there are quite a few NFs which are 14hh or over. I agree that over-height ones (over 14.2hh) don't come up that much.

HorseQuest UK

HorseQuest is the leading Equine Sales Website for all things equestrian

www.horsequest.co.uk

 

[palo1]

Well, if you want flashy movement you don't actually need to go much further than a Welsh cob
And Fellboy has real rock-god vibes
And if you want fancy breeding, native bloodlines go back centuries if not millenia...

What's not to like for the true connoisseur?

This! I have a Welshie who is every bit as capable as more fashionable horses. She is15.3. I think she has a very beautiful baroque look, she jumps, does lateral work and keeps up with the big, smart horses when we are drag and trail hunting. I refer to her as Celtic bloodstock! It's just snobbery and a strange belief in the warmblood that prevails though each to their own of course! I love a decent TB too and of course wonderful Arabs.

 

[ycbm]

snobbery and a strange belief in the warmblood

The strangest thing of all being that the warmbloods are all mongrels with open stud books and can be any mix of breeds at all! There's an Arab stallion registered as KWPN, for example.
.

 

[palo1]

The strangest thing of all being that the warmbloods are all mongrels with open stud books and can be any mix of breeds at all! There's an Arab stallion registered as KWPN, for example.
.

Quite! We have 2 warmbloods here - one we bred from a superb Arab stallion and he is an exceptional horse. The other is a bit of a discipline specialist and also wonderful so I have no problem at all with acknowledging the potential of warmblood breeding at all. However, even the fancy KWPNs and so on are a very mixed bag and because of the arms race in dressage and showjumping in particular, there is all manner of horses being produced in the hope of talent getting passed on. As with all breeding there are good studs and bad but at least much of our native breeding has historical consistency on its side.

 

[ycbm]

There are probably people with KWPN registered Arab crossed with Hanoverian registered TB riding the hottest of hotbloods and calling it a warmblood.
.

 

[Widgeon]

The preferred upper height for an Exmoor 1s 12.3hh, Dave is oversized at just over 13hh, however he is built like a tank.

I often find that people who ride horses don't comprehend the width and depth of a native. I'm 5'8" and am absolutely fine height and weight wise on a 13.3hh Highland and a 13hh ish Exmoor (although I have to say the Exmoor had a disturbing lack of neck). Then you see posts from people saying "looking for a safe hack, I am 5'7" so I must have something at least 16.1hh"

 

[eahotson]

I often find that people who ride horses don't comprehend the width and depth of a native. I'm 5'8" and am absolutely fine height and weight wise on a 13.3hh Highland and a 13hh ish Exmoor (although I have to say the Exmoor had a disturbing lack of neck). Then you see posts from people saying "looking for a safe hack, I am 5'7" so I must have something at least 16.1hh"

That's the other thing .People think you aren't riding a "proper" horse unless it is at least 16hh.

 

[Gloi]

I often find that people who ride horses don't comprehend the width and depth of a native. I'm 5'8" and am absolutely fine height and weight wise on a 13.3hh Highland and a 13hh ish Exmoor (although I have to say the Exmoor had a disturbing lack of neck). Then you see posts from people saying "looking for a safe hack, I am 5'7" so I must have something at least 16.1hh"

If you are used to riding big horses it can take a while to adjust. I rode a 13h icelandic for 20+ years and though he never felt big and I used to rub him on the face while i was riding, he was tireless and fearless. Great guy. My boy now is 14h and he still feels massive .

 

[eahotson]

If you are used to riding big horses it can take a while to adjust. I rode a 13h icelandic for 20+ years and though he never felt big and I used to rub him on the face while i was riding, he was tireless and fearless. Great guy. My boy now is 14h and he still feels massive .

Icelandic are awesome.

 

[Gloi]

.

 

[Gloi]

Icelandic are awesome.

I won't disagree

 

[SEL]

If you are used to riding big horses it can take a while to adjust. I rode a 13h icelandic for 20+ years and though he never felt big and I used to rub him on the face while i was riding, he was tireless and fearless. Great guy. My boy now is 14h and he still feels massive .

I can get off a 16h warmblood onto my 13h native and she's just as wide!

 

[reynold]

Natiive fan here - Welsh mainly (A up to D) plus Connies.

The thing that is worrying me now is the specific intention with some of the breeds to aim to breed them up in height beyond the norm.

It won't be in my lifetime, but I think that these height enhanced versions will prove to be weaker models of the original. Height often comes from longer cannon bones and the short, dense cannon bones (and pasterns) of traditional natives are part of what contributes to their soundness.

As above, the breadth of barrel of the native takes up the length of leg of the rider and (within reason) natives can carry a higher rider weight than their heights would suggest. It is not that many decades ago that Shetlands and the small Welsh A/B ponies would have been ridden by men rounding up sheep in hilly terrain. My farrier in the 80s grew up on a welsh hill farm and used to do that in his 20s on a smaller welsh mountain pony.

Humans have tinkered with warmblood breeding over the last few decades and we are now in the situation of them almost universally lacking soundness and longevity. I really dread that the same happens to our natives (especially Welsh, Connies, Fells and Dales and New Forests).

Traditionally the way to get a larger but good quality 15.2 ish native temperament competition/riding horse in the era before warmbloods was to cross with a TB. A Connie or Welsh x TB was typical, along with the option of the TBxArab (Anglo-Arab such as Tamarillo).

I'm old now but the competition ponies I used to breed in the 90s/00s were all Welsh or Connie x TB/Arab (no more than 25% non-native). All were graded and went on to turn their hooves to anything from dressage to pony racing.

 

[Cloball]

@Gloi do report back re stallions with pictures please maybe D needs a boyfriend. I like her flares, they are very silky and do their job well in winter. Her tail on the other hand is a separate beast I could do without about 60%.

 

[Cloball]

I have pics of some of the stallions in her breeding and they are sooo hairy.

 

[Gloi]

I have pics of some of the stallions in her breeding and they are sooo hairy.

This was one of mine I showed in the 80s.