Reintroducing predators into the wild.

[Ownedby4horses]

I noticed a news article in the DailyFail about conservationists wanting to reintroduce Lynx into the UK (the articles also mentions reintroducing wolves).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...in-ask-permission-reintroduce-lynx-WEEKS.html

https://lynxuk.org/

In Denmark, we have grey wolves that have arrived from Germany, we have Racoon dogs and Golden Jackals. Whilst numbers are still relatively low for Wolves, there has been a sighting not far from our property. Wolves are protected in the EU and theres been a big case running over here for a guy who shot a wolf crossing open farmland, he was facing some serious repercussions but if memory served correctly, hes has a hefty fine and his hunting licence taken away (so many people hunt over here and 90% of the houses we viewed were filled with stuffed heads and skulls as trophies!). I nearly fell down the staircase in one house when my hubby exclaimed "good god look up at that" (im terrifed of spiders so my immediate thought was of that but no, the biggest boar head youve ever seen was looking right at me! ?, i digress!

Anyway, cases over here of wolf attacks on humans are seemingly pretty low, the Government has a fund which pays out to farmers for loss of stock and theres a subsidy available to them for wolf proof fencing. Friends of ours recently had an evening where all of the village went out with pots and pans and noisy things, to go through the plantation nearby, to scare off a wolf that had been sighted. The general advice seems to be don't approach, make yourself big and loud and dont turn your back on them and children are at risk as they tend to be the ones who will approach them, thinking they are dogs. I read a rather scary news article about a woman being attacked in her home after a wolf followed her dog through a doggy door!

I thought it would be an interesting debate, to see what everyone's views are on re-releasing predators into countries. I don't see really how they can compare the UK to other countries, as the UK is far more densely populated. This topic is at the forefront of my mind as obviously I have three tiny ponies and a little cat. For my own peace of mind, I just keep everyone in until the sun has risen and everyone is in before sunset.

What are your thoughts on releasing into the wild?

 

[oldie48]

Totally agree with it, brilliant idea however, only condition is that we turn the countryside back to what it was like when these predators roamed free and we would have to vote via a referendum. Might mean knocking down every housing estate and replanting with woodland, digging up every road and relying on shank's pony etc but how lovely to look out from our shacks at night straight into the eyes of a lynx or wolf. (allegedly) We have a local "black cat" which tootles past every couple of months, takes a sheep which is usually found up a tree and is seen, from time to time, lurking in quiet places. Did we keep sheep when the lynx and wolf was native. No, so they'll have to go too.

 

[Goldenstar]

I actually have no problem with reintroducing natives animals as long as there’s going to be enough for them to eat and that’s the tricky bit .

 

[Keith_Beef]

Did we keep sheep when the lynx and wolf was native. No, so they'll have to go too.

Yes, sheep and cattle were kept in the British Isles when the lynx, bear and wolf were around.
From Wikipedia:

• Eurasian brown bear (Ursus arctos arctos) went extinct c. AD 1000
• Eurasian lynx (Lynx lynx) went extinct c. A.D. 400
• Eurasian wolf (Canis lupus lupus) went extinct AD 1786

 

[scruffyponies]

Should keep the local cat population down a bit.

 

[twiggy2]

I actually have no problem with reintroducing natives animals as long as there’s going to be enough for them to eat and that’s the tricky bit .

Of course there will be enough for them to eat in places they are talking about doing it, at least until the farmers give up and remove the sheep that are easy prey from the hills.
They talk about Re introducing wolves in the Highlands to keep the deer in check, why anyone thinks wolves will take the risk of trying to bring down red deer when sheep are so much easier to catch I don't know.
People want access to the hills, the hills are awash with tick that carry life changing and life ending disease, the tick are to some extent kept in check by the sheep that are on the hills being treated to kill them.
In areas where grouse are shot the hills are managed to support them, that means keeping a large insect population on the go and making the hill a good environment, in some areas predators are over persecuted and that needs watching but in turn the hill is well cared for.
No sheep on the hill will also mean that certain plants take over and that will have a detrimental effect on wildlife as not all plants grow at the same rate.

 

[MagicMelon]

There's several locations near me which are marked as lynx reintroduction sites which I believe is likely to go ahead. We've already got lynx around here, people and farmers have seen them so its not really anything new. My biggest concern is where I live and where they have marked as good sites aren't ideal food-wise. Yes, we have deer and pheasants etc. up here but we also have a lot of hunting of them. We're not rural enough IMO for them and I feel they'll wonder onto farmers land and nab sheep so then the farmers will kill them... pretty pointless then. They should be released further north where its more rural / rough terrain.

 

[Shilasdair]

There are already a number of big cats living wild in the UK.
I know of (have seen) a black panther in Fife, and of pumas (a population) near Lochgilphead.

Bring it on.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Should keep the local cat population down a bit.

Would probably attack and kill peoples domestic pet cats and dogs too.

 

[meleeka]

I just wish we’d stop interfering in everything. Humans have a lot to answer for as far as wildlife goes.

 

[Caol Ila]

Of course there will be enough for them to eat in places they are talking about doing it, at least until the farmers give up and remove the sheep that are easy prey from the hills.
They talk about Re introducing wolves in the Highlands to keep the deer in check, why anyone thinks wolves will take the risk of trying to bring down red deer when sheep are so much easier to catch I don't know.
People want access to the hills, the hills are awash with tick that carry life changing and life ending disease, the tick are to some extent kept in check by the sheep that are on the hills being treated to kill them.
In areas where grouse are shot the hills are managed to support them, that means keeping a large insect population on the go and making the hill a good environment, in some areas predators are over persecuted and that needs watching but in turn the hill is well cared for.
No sheep on the hill will also mean that certain plants take over and that will have a detrimental effect on wildlife as not all plants grow at the same rate.

Um, hill sheep and grouse moor management are terrible for ecology. In both cases, the hills become vast monocultures and have lost a great deal of their biodiversity. Sheep eat everything, so young, indigenous plant species never gain a foothold, and that curtails the insects that live there, and then the birds, and on up the food chain you go. And grouse moors are an ecological mess. Anything that eats grouse is killed. That includes ravens, stoats, raptors (even though it is illegal), foxes, etc. etc. Heather is burnt so young grouse can find more food, and if you have ever hiked on one, it's plain that the biodiversity of plant life is non-existent. The burning gets ridof bracken, which is an invasive species, so that's not a bad thing, but it wipes out everything else as well. Also, the grouse don't require a large, diverse insect population because gamekeepers feed them. You see patches of burnt out heather where they've left grain (much of which is medicated, so that enters the food chain as well). And there are thousands of grouse, far more than you would encounter if the estates weren't heavily managed in order to have thousands of grouse.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/artic...oors_-_benign_tradition_or_eco_disaster-12522
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/09/scottish-grouse-moors-climate-report
https://www.britishecologicalsociety.org/mountain-hares-scottish-grouse-moors/
https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/ws/f...t_review_group_report_scottish_government.pdf

The hill sheep are not keeping people safe from Lyme disease. If anything, incidences of Lyme disease are increasing in Scotland: "Lyme disease is of growing importance in Scotland as the number of people in Scotland affected by Lyme disease is continuing to increase. This is reflected in the results from Scotland’s National Lyme borreliosis testing laboratory in Inverness in Figure 22. Similar statistics are also produced by Health Protection Scotland, the national surveillance centre for communicable diseases and health problems associated with environmental hazards." (https://www.gov.scot/publications/management-wild-deer-scotland/pages/14/).

The report in question focuses on deer, but it points out that an increase in deer population leads to an increase in tick population. More hosts = more ticks. Tick populations have been rising significantly for the past few years. A lot of it has to do with the prevalence of warmer, wetter weather. Yay climate change.

https://scottishwildlifetrust.org.uk/2019/10/ticks-and-lyme-disease-what-you-need-to-know/
https://www.invernesscampus.co.uk/n...volvement-in-research-on-tick-borne-diseases/



Also, we should definitely reintroduce wolves.

 

[Inda]

I have no problem with reintroduction of native predators. As long as the farmers are subsidised for any possible loses.

The wolves stabilised the ecology in parks they were reintroduced to in the states, so suspect would help with that here.

I’ve seen a big black cat too, in inverclyde. I had heard about them there in the past and laughed it off. I was up at the yard late alone when the night were still bright. Big black thing, long tail, loped like a cat. Farmers report mauled lambs on a regular basis.

 

[PurBee]

There are already a number of big cats living wild in the UK.
I know of (have seen) a black panther in Fife, and of pumas (a population) near Lochgilphead.

Bring it on.

The uk big cat sightings are starting to be believed.

I saw a large black panther when i was working on a house in very rural northants. I arrived around 7.30am very quiet peaceful morning, it had snowed heavily the previous days. I was standing on the front step having a coffee and admiring the white landscape of fields and trees, when in the distance of the field next to the house, about 50m away, i saw what at first i thought was a black cat. Then i suddenly realised its a huuuge black cat! It’s belly was visible above the 10inch snow carpet, and the top thigh of legs were visible....and its tail extremely long!
It was walking away from me, and i walked closer to look longer at it. The way it moved was incredible and not a house moggy trudging through deep snow!
It’s tail was held horizontal and curled up at the end as it traversed the field. A real prowling movement. It was heading toward the woods, and went out of view beyond the ridge of the hill. I decided it was wise not to get too close as i was the only living viable prey out there!
I didnt tell the owners as i thought it unlikely theyll believe me anyway, i could barely believe what i’d seen....as is the case when witnessing something rarely seen .....but i do wonder if they ever spotted it when they moved in and lived there...

As for reintroducing extincts back into the wild - i love the idea....but the reality is we can’t just turn back the clock. Humans are vastly densely populated now compared to when these breeds were wild. The landscape numbers of other species have changed, so their diet isnt abundant as it used to be, the plant life is different so prey animal numbers have changed. Humans and farming will be effected hugely if wolves and bears especially were re-introduced.

Either stop farming the deeper rural areas and give back to wildnerness, or keep things as they are.

The lynx stands a good chance as mice, rabbits etc are plentiful for them....and the farm attacks wouldnt be as great or often as there would be from wolves and bears.

The uk rural wild area isnt large enough anymore to fully support the larger extinct species.

We cant ‘undo’ easily what has been done. The only way as mentioned would be drastic change and sacrifice for humans, and humans have always seen themselves as superior to all species, hence extinction in the first place.

 

[PurBee]

Um, hill sheep and grouse moor management are terrible for ecology. In both cases, the hills become vast monocultures and have lost a great deal of their biodiversity. Sheep eat everything, so young, indigenous plant species never gain a foothold, and that curtails the insects that live there, and then the birds, and on up the food chain you go. And grouse moors are an ecological mess. Anything that eats grouse is killed. That includes ravens, stoats, raptors (even though it is illegal), foxes, etc. etc. Heather is burnt so young grouse can find more food, and if you have ever hiked on one, it's plain that the biodiversity of plant life is non-existent. The burning gets ridof bracken, which is an invasive species, so that's not a bad thing, but it wipes out everything else as well. Also, the grouse don't require a large, diverse insect population because gamekeepers feed them. You see patches of burnt out heather where they've left grain (much of which is medicated, so that enters the food chain as well). And there are thousands of grouse, far more than you would encounter if the estates weren't heavily managed in order to have thousands of grouse.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/artic...oors_-_benign_tradition_or_eco_disaster-12522
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/09/scottish-grouse-moors-climate-report
https://www.britishecologicalsociety.org/mountain-hares-scottish-grouse-moors/
https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/ws/f...t_review_group_report_scottish_government.pdf

The hill sheep are not keeping people safe from Lyme disease. If anything, incidences of Lyme disease are increasing in Scotland: "Lyme disease is of growing importance in Scotland as the number of people in Scotland affected by Lyme disease is continuing to increase. This is reflected in the results from Scotland’s National Lyme borreliosis testing laboratory in Inverness in Figure 22. Similar statistics are also produced by Health Protection Scotland, the national surveillance centre for communicable diseases and health problems associated with environmental hazards." (https://www.gov.scot/publications/management-wild-deer-scotland/pages/14/).

The report in question focuses on deer, but it points out that an increase in deer population leads to an increase in tick population. More hosts = more ticks. Tick populations have been rising significantly for the past few years. A lot of it has to do with the prevalence of warmer, wetter weather. Yay climate change.

https://scottishwildlifetrust.org.uk/2019/10/ticks-and-lyme-disease-what-you-need-to-know/
https://www.invernesscampus.co.uk/n...volvement-in-research-on-tick-borne-diseases/



Also, we should definitely reintroduce wolves.

Galway university studied tick born lyme disease here, as it was mostly believed that lyme disease didn’t exist here - my neighbour even said this to me.
The results from the study showed that many counties had a high percentage of lyme in the ticks collected from those regions. Mainly in the western, wetter counties.

Maybe twiggy was referring to sheep grazing the grass short reduces tick population, as they really love long, wild grasslands, as i know when i bought my wild acres here.
However, the tick numbers have not reduced with me re-claiming the land for short pasture. The dogs and cats regularly get them, constantly....its been quite a burden really.
We have around 10 deer, coming onto and grazing the land at night. However pine martens are here and ive seen ticks sticking out all over their heads....so im not sure just deer can be blamed for keeping the tick populations thriving, when ticks seem to find blood from anything as a useful host!
After 12yrs of managing ticks here, this year, while making hay, i got bitten and contracted lyme. I’ve been bitten many times over the years despite always having trousers tucked in socks etc - they crawl through wool socks weave. The bite was different to the others...it remained and the rash extended up my whole leg over many weeks. My knee joint of that leg became painful, i‘ve been getting headaches etc. I’m treating it with everything known to man as im allergic to penicillin so can’t do the conventional antibiotic route.

We have to live with these things anyway. Not sure wolves and bears will reduce tick numbers by killing deer, as hunters regularly take deer so the herds here are small compared to scottish highlands, yet tick numbers remain high.

 

[twiggy2]

Um, hill sheep and grouse moor management are terrible for ecology. In both cases, the hills become vast monocultures and have lost a great deal of their biodiversity. Sheep eat everything, so young, indigenous plant species never gain a foothold, and that curtails the insects that live there, and then the birds, and on up the food chain you go. And grouse moors are an ecological mess. Anything that eats grouse is killed. That includes ravens, stoats, raptors (even though it is illegal), foxes, etc. etc. Heather is burnt so young grouse can find more food, and if you have ever hiked on one, it's plain that the biodiversity of plant life is non-existent. The burning gets ridof bracken, which is an invasive species, so that's not a bad thing, but it wipes out everything else as well. Also, the grouse don't require a large, diverse insect population because gamekeepers feed them. You see patches of burnt out heather where they've left grain (much of which is medicated, so that enters the food chain as well). And there are thousands of grouse, far more than you would encounter if the estates weren't heavily managed in order to have thousands of grouse.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/artic...oors_-_benign_tradition_or_eco_disaster-12522
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/09/scottish-grouse-moors-climate-report
https://www.britishecologicalsociety.org/mountain-hares-scottish-grouse-moors/
https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/ws/f...t_review_group_report_scottish_government.pdf

The hill sheep are not keeping people safe from Lyme disease. If anything, incidences of Lyme disease are increasing in Scotland: "Lyme disease is of growing importance in Scotland as the number of people in Scotland affected by Lyme disease is continuing to increase. This is reflected in the results from Scotland’s National Lyme borreliosis testing laboratory in Inverness in Figure 22. Similar statistics are also produced by Health Protection Scotland, the national surveillance centre for communicable diseases and health problems associated with environmental hazards." (https://www.gov.scot/publications/management-wild-deer-scotland/pages/14/).

The report in question focuses on deer, but it points out that an increase in deer population leads to an increase in tick population. More hosts = more ticks. Tick populations have been rising significantly for the past few years. A lot of it has to do with the prevalence of warmer, wetter weather. Yay climate change.

https://scottishwildlifetrust.org.uk/2019/10/ticks-and-lyme-disease-what-you-need-to-know/
https://www.invernesscampus.co.uk/n...volvement-in-research-on-tick-borne-diseases/



Also, we should definitely reintroduce wolves.

Sheep will eat everything if grass is scare, if they ate everything there would be no gorse/bracken for example, over stocked ground is yes of course overgrazed.
Grouse only eat insects for the first 2 weeks of their lives hence the burning of heather because young heather hosts more insects, if done as it should be to encourage a patchwork of heather at all stages it encourages a diverse plant life, fire is a natural phenomenon in past tines and the regeneration it creates is vast and pretty fast.
Not all grouse moors are an ecological mess, many keepers wipe out everything I agree but not all and the more sympathetically managed moors are great for wildlife. Grouse moors in Scotland are almost void of grouse and last year the numbers were worse than this. In some areas there will be more of course but not in the Highlands for sure.
I live in the Highlands and gather the sheep of various hills and areas, I grant you I have only been here 2 and a half years but the hills are anything but a monoculture here unless you include the areas of pine forestry where sheep and all other animals are fenced out of.
Limes disease is on the increase yes and that is in-line with the increased footfall and the decreasing number of sheep in the hills.
Of course where there are more deer there are more tick but I am not sure what your point is with that?

 

[twiggy2]

Most sheep on the hills in the Scottish Highlands are there primarily to act as what is called a tick mop, they travel the hill picking up ticks as they go and are then treated with products to kill the ticks, in areas where sheep have been removed from the hill or areas adjacent to them the tick population has increased massively.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I dont know if reintroducing the wolf to the Uk is ever going to be a viable thing. But certain predators perhaps. Watching Autumnwatch as many others and saw the bit bout the pine marten preying on grey squirrels so in some cases there could be a call for it.

 

[hollyandivy123]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140128-how-wolves-saved-a-famous-park

 

[mariew]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140128-how-wolves-saved-a-famous-park

You got there before me, this example is amazing! We need a full range of predators, not just to suit ourselves otherwise nature loses its balance

 

[twiggy2]

You got there before me, this example is amazing! We need a full range of predators, not just to suit ourselves otherwise nature loses its balance

That's the thing, the balance is already lost, there are far too many deer in some areas, hare are also over running some areas and whilst they are probably my favourite creature they need controlling- myxomatosis has been reported in hare all over the UK and I have seen 2 hare with it in the Scottish Highlands. With no control in numbers and a population boom hare will travel further become weaker as they struggle for space and the disease is likely to spread.
It's very difficult to get nature back to what was a previous balance as historically thing evolved to take advantage of what was essentially a gap in the market so to speak but just letting things go mean that the things that grow and or multiply faster will take over and the slow things get wiped out.

 

[fredflop]

It’s a no from me. Those predators have been out of the U.K. equation for that long, they really aren’t suitable for the “modern” state of this country.

I do find it ironic that stag hunting is banned, but then other means of deer control are now required

 

[twiggy2]

It’s a no from me. Those predators have been out of the U.K. equation for that long, they really aren’t suitable for the “modern” state of this country.

I do find it ironic that stag hunting is banned, but then other means of deer control are now required

Stalking is a little different to the deer than being chased by hounds, it creates much less disturbance on the hills as a whole.

 

[Clodagh]

It’s a no from me. Those predators have been out of the U.K. equation for that long, they really aren’t suitable for the “modern” state of this country.

I do find it ironic that stag hunting is banned, but then other means of deer control are now required

Stag hunting is not as efficient as a man with a rifle.

I am always amazed that no one cares about the gradual extinction of the Scottish wildcat, a predator that exists here and now, but want lynx and wolves.
I assume they are sexier and have more relevance to the GOT generation.

 

[fredflop]

Stag hunting is not as efficient as a man with a rifle.

I am always amazed that no one cares about the gradual extinction of the Scottish wildcat, a predator that exists here and now, but want lynx and wolves.
I assume they are sexier and have more relevance to the GOT generation.

id much rather conservation work on wild cats. If lynx are introduced, presumably the two species will be in competition with each other

 

[PapaverFollis]

More wildcats and raptors and stuff like that would be great. But I'm very not sold on lynx and wolves.

Population density in Sutherland (where there are no cities and is the least populous area in Scotland? ) is 2.4people/km². I think that is still quite densely populated compared to other areas where there are lynx and wolves? I was struggling to find data but only had a bloke's look.

 

[Littlebear]

I find this interesting after recently watching something on Attenborough where if i am not mistaken he was talking about the rise of virus infection rates in humans being something to do with the fall in predators that keep numbers low of the types of animals that spread them, not sure if anyone else watched that?

 

[Shilasdair]

Stag hunting is not as efficient as a man with a rifle.

I am always amazed that no one cares about the gradual extinction of the Scottish wildcat, a predator that exists here and now, but want lynx and wolves.
I assume they are sexier and have more relevance to the GOT generation.

I care about the Scottish wildcat - and there are groups which aim to support them (one very active group).
My cousin was given a wildcat to raise as a pet (she lived in a large village/small town) to see how they behaved in a domesticated environment. I remember she fed it frozen mice which was a bit grim. It was exactly like a domestic cat - with one exception. It was territorial as hell, and used to attack anyone that walked past her terraced house. After quite a few complaints, the wildlife centre collected it again, and it lived in a park, creating vicious wildkittens.

 

[Caol Ila]

Lots of people, in my circles anyway, care about wildcats. One of the problems is that they breed with domestic cats, so re-introducing them has different problems than introducing lynx, say. I don't know how you eliminate or mitigate the risk of hybridization, which is one of the reasons for the wildcat's decline, because it's almost impossible to keep the populations separate.

A far as uplands go, we can at least agree that humans have been trashing them for centuries, even if some are better managed than others now. That stereotypical bleak, heathery moorland you see around Drumochter Pass and a million other places? It shouldn't look like that. It was probably once a bit more like Rothiemurchus or parts of Glen Affric. A long time ago, like 17th/18th century, but still.

On another note, we should clearly reintroduce bears, preferably grizzlies (were there ever grizzlies here? Probably not... I think there were species more closely related to North American black bears but not sure). Would solve the dirty camping problem. In places where there are grizzly bears, campers are very, very conscientious.

 

[TPO]

They white tail sea eagle was reintroduced. They are supposed to eat fish but have been taking lambs.

Imagine what would get taken by wolves and bears!

 

[Clodagh]

They white tail sea eagle was reintroduced. They are supposed to eat fish but have been taking lambs.

Imagine what would get taken by wolves and bears!

Don’t be silly, they only eat deer.