Reintroducing predators into the wild.

[TPO]

Don’t be silly, they only eat deer.

My bad ??‍

 

[Orangehorse]

There is a book called The Last Wolf which puts forward the theory that because wolves were hunted to extinction in the 13th Century, this allowed England to become a huge sheep rearing nation, which led to massive wealth, way before the rest of Europe. There is a local National Trust property locally which has Anglo-Saxon origins and there is the remains of a large enclosure close to the house. The guide said that this was the enclosure that all the animals were herded into at night to protect them from wolves.

If you go to America it is actually quite frightening to know that there are animals out there that can kill you, it gives you quite a different attitude to a walk in the nearby forest. The horses were wary of bears and would stop and turn around if they came across one, and one day we were riding and were being stalked by a coyote, which isn't all that big, but it certainly upset my horse which was very nervous.
(We saw it a few times when out walking too and we think it was keeping an eye on anyone in forest as there was probably a litter of cubs around).

It is a nice idea to think of animals being re-introduced, but I think it could only be possible in the most remote area, and even then if ultimately well fenced in. I don;t see why farmers should suffer their animals being mauled to death by a reintroduced wild animal.

 

[palo1]

Sheep will eat everything if grass is scare, if they ate everything there would be no gorse/bracken for example, over stocked ground is yes of course overgrazed.
Grouse only eat insects for the first 2 weeks of their lives hence the burning of heather because young heather hosts more insects, if done as it should be to encourage a patchwork of heather at all stages it encourages a diverse plant life, fire is a natural phenomenon in past tines and the regeneration it creates is vast and pretty fast.
Not all grouse moors are an ecological mess, many keepers wipe out everything I agree but not all and the more sympathetically managed moors are great for wildlife. Grouse moors in Scotland are almost void of grouse and last year the numbers were worse than this. In some areas there will be more of course but not in the Highlands for sure.
I live in the Highlands and gather the sheep of various hills and areas, I grant you I have only been here 2 and a half years but the hills are anything but a monoculture here unless you include the areas of pine forestry where sheep and all other animals are fenced out of.
Limes disease is on the increase yes and that is in-line with the increased footfall and the decreasing number of sheep in the hills.
Of course where there are more deer there are more tick but I am not sure what your point is with that?

I have a very complex set of thoughts around grouse moors as well as rewilding but whilst people are shouting about grouse shooting they should also consider that grouse are a native species and their habitat (heather moorland) is globally very endangered as well as potentially supporting a huge range of other species. It really needs to be a nuanced debate tbh. Walked up shooting for example is a whole other thing to driven shooting yet 'grouse shooting' is often headlined as one thing...

 

[paddy555]

I'm not sure if the wolves will eat the sheep or who will eat who but if we introduce wolves will we end up in the situation of trophy hunters ie humans killing the wolves. They seem to want to kill everything else. A wolf will be a much bigger prize. Whilst the wolves (or whatever wild animal is introduced) may be protected by law we cannot police every wolf to protect it.

 

[cindars]

We've had a lot of trouble lately from mink getting very bold taking things in daylight and seen in the village gardens..

 

[Tinkerbee]

There's two main options 1, have fenced off areas and release token populations of lynx wolf or whatever, and it's basically a v large zoo and no use as far as ecology goes.

Or more extensive rewilding on vast scale with a naturalised ecosystem that can sustain predators such as lynx etc that would be released.

Option 1 is no real threat to livestock properly fenced and option 2 is generations away if ever. Knepp are just about getting large herbivores sorted in their rewilding scheme never mind apex predators.

I'm torn between " conservation without rewilding is just fiddling as Rome burns" and "we should focus on preserving the biodiversity we have left without daft pie in the sky ideas that turn the public against us"

Put up a few bat and bird boxes, plant proper species rich meadows and hold corporations and governments responsible for destroying the climate, and never mind where the wolves are.

 

[Caol Ila]

I'm from a place where we have coyotes, mountain lions, black bear, bald and golden eagles. People learn to live with these predators.

 

[Tinkerbee]

I'm from a place where we have coyotes, mountain lions, black bear, bald and golden eagles. People learn to live with these predators.

But were they not always there? We can (and should) live alongside them but it's been centuries since we've have wolves etc in the UK. I haven't the strength to explain to a farmer to not shout a badger never mind a wolf ?

 

[Goldenstar]

Lots of people, in my circles anyway, care about wildcats. One of the problems is that they breed with domestic cats, so re-introducing them has different problems than introducing lynx, say. I don't know how you eliminate or mitigate the risk of hybridization, which is one of the reasons for the wildcat's decline, because it's almost impossible to keep the populations separate.

A far as uplands go, we can at least agree that humans have been trashing them for centuries, even if some are better managed than others now. That stereotypical bleak, heathery moorland you see around Drumochter Pass and a million other places? It shouldn't look like that. It was probably once a bit more like Rothiemurchus or parts of Glen Affric. A long time ago, like 17th/18th century, but still.

On another note, we should clearly reintroduce bears, preferably grizzlies (were there ever grizzlies here? Probably not... I think there were species more closely related to North American black bears but not sure). Would solve the dirty camping problem. In places where there are grizzly bears, campers are very, very conscientious.

they would need to be European brown beers

 

[Caol Ila]

Yes and no. Bald eagles were nearly driven to extinction, but bounced back with heavy government protection under the Endangered Species Act. Wolves have been reintroduced to Wyoming and are slowly making their way into Colorado. We'll see how that goes. There are more bear/people encounters than there used to be, even ten years ago, due to habitat destruction and more people moving into wilderness areas. Same with mountain lions. And coyotes are kind of fine. I saw them all the time trail riding and neither the horse nor the coyote gave a damn about one another.

With the bears and mountain lions, you learn what not to do and how not to act in their territories.

 

[Goldenstar]

This is a densely populated island the comparison with the US does not really stand the US is huge and has enormous very lightly populated areas .
If you introduce top predators all might will be well at first until number grow and food becomes more scarce .

 

[Caol Ila]

they would need to be European brown beers

I think that has more in common with North American black bears than with grizzlies. Too bad. The latter would solve the antisocial camping problem with one fell swoop of its paw. Literally.

 

[Goldenstar]

I saw a wild bear once in Turkey an amazing moment

 

[twiggy2]

Wyoming is bigger than Britain and less deals populated but the wolves are still making their way out of it, I cant see it working in the very small parts of the UK that have the pockets of habitat that may be suitable for wolves when looked at on paper.

 

[Orangehorse]

I saw a wild bear once in Turkey an amazing moment

Yes, I saw a bear when on a riding holiday in Montana. One of the horses noticed it first and we looked to see what he was looking at! Certainly a highlight. Although bears were around it was quite unusual to see one in broad daylight.

 

[millikins]

I think there would be a case for lynx if farmers were compensated, I think that Thetford Forest has been suggested as well as Scotland. But wolves, I don't know, they are my favourite wild animal but is there space for them? Even in Scotland? What if it worked well, would we be looking at needing to cull them in 10 years?
Oh, and even as a Southerner, I care very much about wildcats

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

It is a no from me, what is to stop them killing farm stock as well as domestic pets. Leave things as they are why change, no need to fix something not broken.

 

[Tinkerbee]

It is a no from me, what is to stop them killing farm stock as well as domestic pets. Leave things as they are why change, no need to fix something not broken.

I think the point is things are very much broken, currently

 

[PapaverFollis]

Wyoming has a population density of 2.3people/km² including several cities and towns so rural areas even less densely populous. The Highlands as a whole has a population density of 8people/km².

 

[HashRouge]

I'd like to see Lynx reintroduced so long as there is compensation for farmers. Wolves is probably pushing it though - this island is so densely populated now!

 

[cauda equina]

Put the wolves in the new ancient woodlands being created with dug-up soil from the old ancient woodlands chopped down to make way for HS2

 

[palo1]

It is a no from me, what is to stop them killing farm stock as well as domestic pets. Leave things as they are why change, no need to fix something not broken.

Sadly though, I think things are really quite broken in terms of eco-system/biodiversity and the argument for apex predators as well as large grazing animals is hard to dispute. I do think there are possible ways we could make things work but that needs a bit of work to be done yet!

 

[cauda equina]

Fewer people would go a long way to improve biodiversity
But of course no one wants to say that so instead look for ways to tinker round the edges

 

[Clodagh]

I went on holiday to Canada (north Vancouver Island) a few years ago and wolves were eating peoples domestic dogs, even ones on a lead! Can you imagine watching your dog being eaten by a pack of wolves.
I think we should try to stop breaking what we have left, rather than trying to turn back time.
Not predators but I understand beavers are an enormous pest in Europe (somewhere they were introduced, Germany I think?) and are causing massive damage. But oh no, say we. let's have them back here too.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Personally I would hate to farm in an area that had reintroduced Lynx or Wolves. No amount of compensation would make up for losing a random number of animals a year. You would constantly be dealing with the fallout of losing nursing mothers or their offspring and if they were pedigree stock the loss to breeding lines could be worth way more than any compensation. I would only agree to it if they were kept in securely fenced areas however big OR the powers that be paid farmers sufficient to securely fence their land to include cost of work as well as materials.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Put the wolves in the new ancient woodlands being created with dug-up soil from the old ancient woodlands chopped down to make way for HS2

Not unless those woodlands are going to be securely fenced.

 

[cauda equina]

Not unless those woodlands are going to be securely fenced.

And perhaps after waiting 1000 years for the woodlands to become ancient again, assuming they ever do; they might need to be grubbed up in the meantime to make way for the next exciting piece of new infrastructure

 

[SEL]

I went on holiday to Canada (north Vancouver Island) a few years ago and wolves were eating peoples domestic dogs, even ones on a lead! Can you imagine watching your dog being eaten by a pack of wolves.
I think we should try to stop breaking what we have left, rather than trying to turn back time.
Not predators but I understand beavers are an enormous pest in Europe (somewhere they were introduced, Germany I think?) and are causing massive damage. But oh no, say we. let's have them back here too.

When I was in Australia one of the large saltwater crocs had started to take small dogs off the beach - they relocated him thankfully.

I agree with stop demolishing what we have left. I live near the path of HS2 and the damage that has caused to ancient woodlands is horrendous.

 

[AUB]

I’m not sure where I stand. On one hand I’m for less cultivated nature and reintroducing animals that humans have driven away, but on the other hand I fear for ponies, foals and small livestock.

There’s just been a Shetland in Germany killed by 2 wolves, confirmed by DNA https://www.st-georg.de/news/pferde...shetty-in-bottrop-wurde-von-woelfen-gerissen/

 

[mariew]

Fewer people would go a long way to improve biodiversity
But of course no one wants to say that so instead look for ways to tinker round the edges

I don't think the human race in its current state has that long left on earth tbh. We will manage to wipe ourselves out one way or another, let's just hope we have left enough species of animals left in the world so they can have their planet back. And hope that we don't take the planet with us when we go.