Repairing horse and owner relationship
- Thread starter Flyingsolo
- Start date
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
I was making the point that there is a double standard when it comes to personal space. It is perceived as disrespectful for horses to be in our bubble, but we as humans feel entitled to be in their space and touch them all over at any given time. I'm not talking about urgent medical situations here, I'm talking about everyday situations.
A good example is that my mare does not like the feeling of certain brushes, and will pin her ears if I use those brushes on her body. Those brushes are now in the 'no' pile when I groom her, and I only use the ones which she finds comfortable. Some may perceive her pulling faces as 'disrespectful', I view it as communication that she doesn't like the feeling of them. For me to continue *unnecessarily* using those particular brushes on her, would be rather disrespectful of me.
I am the custodian of many animals, and find that they are much more likely to behave in a calm and non-dangerous way in novel situations if there is an underlying foundation of trust and genuine mutual respect. Horses included.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Question for you: how are you going to put tack on and ride a horse without "getting in their personal space" and "touching them all over"?
scats
Well-Known Member
I have a horse who doesn’t particularly like fuss or grooming, but I do flick her over with a brush daily and expect her to tolerate it. My reasoning is that at some point she’s going to have to (and she already has) need veterinary/physio or chiropractic treatment, where touching and tolerating things she doesn’t like, is very much needed.
Would I subject her to a long pamper session with brushes of varying types? No, because she wouldn’t enjoy that and it’s unnecessary. Do I expect her to tolerate some form of grooming to remove mud and grease? Absolutely.
Would I subject her to a long pamper session with brushes of varying types? No, because she wouldn’t enjoy that and it’s unnecessary. Do I expect her to tolerate some form of grooming to remove mud and grease? Absolutely.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Looking back, I think I treated my children like my ponies!
I doubt it did them any harm
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
My horse and I have a good relationship and she is happy to be ridden. She has only ever reacted to being tacked up in the past for two reasons, ulcers and discomfort from being in season. If she is uncomfortable and doesn't want to be tacked up then I respect that and we'll ride another day. I'm not the sort of person who will tie up my horse to tack them up so they can't walk away and smack them if they pull faces when I'm doing up the girth. Behaviours all have a meaning and it is disrespectful and unintelligent not to listen to them. Phrases like 'she's taking the mick' and 'don't let her win' are anthropomorphisms which have no basis in equine ethology.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Would you respect her right to tell you not to put antibiotic spray or powder on an open wound?
I hope the answer to that is no.
If the answer is no then you have to teach her that when you choose, whenever you choose and wherever you choose, you can touch her.
Teaching that is not the same as riding a horse you believe to be in pain.
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Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
Did you not read the part where I said 'I'm not talking about urgent medical situations here, I'm talking about everyday situations.'??
My horse is generally trusting in novel or 'scary' situations, because I have built a foundation of trust and genuine mutual respect, where she knows that I do listen to how she feels. That doesn't mean that I don't set boundaries or that sometimes she has to put up with certain things she may prefer not to do.
I'm not sure why the idea of giving your horse a voice is so triggering to some people.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I think yous are partially talking past eachother here. Which is one issue with using the word "respect" at all, it has different meanings depending on context even when talking about people, nevermind different species. I truly don't think its a useful word.
It can mean general obedience which is how most people normally use it wrt horses or it can mean a willingness to listen which is I think how you mean it Miss_Millie. Obedience at a basic level is required to stay safe of course but I don't think it has to be unquestioning obedience all the time or nothing. It is useful to have a horse that tells you "no ty" when they are uncomfortable with something, then you can work through it properly.
It can mean general obedience which is how most people normally use it wrt horses or it can mean a willingness to listen which is I think how you mean it Miss_Millie. Obedience at a basic level is required to stay safe of course but I don't think it has to be unquestioning obedience all the time or nothing. It is useful to have a horse that tells you "no ty" when they are uncomfortable with something, then you can work through it properly.
Tarragon
Well-Known Member
Smolnaus - I was just going to write something similar!
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
But you are talking about everyday situations. The horse has to accept being touched all over as an everyday situation, or you can't deal with the emergency.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I'm finding the idea that anyone thinks they need to say that to me after what I write about listening to horses when they try to speak on this forum quite amusing .
I guess you missed the bit on other threads where I said I was beginning to feel cross ties were a work of the devil?
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
I'm not seeing any triggering going on, just bemusement that you seem to think horses can only be touched with "permission". Being fair to horses is a given, but there are many, many instances where they will have to do what we say without getting a vote on the matter.
stangs
Well-Known Member
As an aside - though this might be of interest to OP - the going idea to counter this is the use of start and stop buttons for activities that are necessary but not life-or-death scenarios, like vaccinations or treating an cut. The animal’s not at complete liberty, but they’re given enough autonomy to decide when the procedure should start.
Having said that, I don’t know how practical they are for daily horse care. They seem to work best/be most efficient in cases where the animal has a long history of its ‘no’s being ignored, and of bad relationships with people, and has escalated to serious aggression.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I have seen little bits and pieces about this on the Internet regarding dogs mostly. Certainly sounds like something worthwhile if it can reduce vet stress. I must do more research and see if anyone is trying it with cats, getting my boy to accept his eyeball ointment without misery would be a hell of a mountain to climb but I'd like to make it even 1% less miserable for him. Can't imagine ever getting an enthusiastic yes for having gel squirted on your eyeballs
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I was just thinking how best to put that we know that ycbm listens to her horses, there is plenty of evidence of that in your posts.
I don't tie up to groom, as I prefer the horse to be able to let me know if there is a problem but I will put a halter on at feeding time if she insists that she prefers her friend's bucket. She certainly doesn't get to choose to eat all the food.
tristar
Well-Known Member
well, i go up to the horse, look it in the eye, sometimes kiss it on the nose, hug its neck, run my hand over it, look at it all over , very well, before doing anything else.
because good manners are a two way thing
i find when the horse trusts you are listening to it generally, it is far more likely to allow you to squirt it with potions , worm it, sort its feet, and help it in moments like being stuck in a fence, leading out of a dicey place, and deal with injuries.
if it thinks you may well clock it round the earhole when it moves away anticipation may make it do the very thing you don`t want it to.
because good manners are a two way thing
i find when the horse trusts you are listening to it generally, it is far more likely to allow you to squirt it with potions , worm it, sort its feet, and help it in moments like being stuck in a fence, leading out of a dicey place, and deal with injuries.
if it thinks you may well clock it round the earhole when it moves away anticipation may make it do the very thing you don`t want it to.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I think you are really asking 3 different things and getting answers reflecting that, that may sound conradictory but are just talking about different elements re Pony 2:
1) How to establish boundaries so you and your horse can be safe
2) How to stay emotionally regulated while you do so.
3) How you connect with your horse and build a partnership/relationship.
If you do 1&2 then 3 is easy. Horses like boundaries. And you can't connect with a horse that is not safe to be around.
On the other hand anxious over-aroused horse plus anxious over-aroused human is not an effective way to set boundaries and also upsets horses. So 'losing it' neither sets the boundaries effectively nor makes you feel safe for the horse to be around. Which will also prevent connection.
However, once you have done 1&2 you can then start building a partnership using any methods you choose. The real problem with 'methods' focusing on the relationship is that they tend to assume 1&2 are in place already when in many cases they aren't.
If you go to a clinic you will often see horses like pony 2 being very firmly put in their place by a calm, patient but crystal clear trainer saying 'no that is not ok'. And after the clinics I get complaints because 'I thought Joe was gentle". Well yes he is! But is is also boundaried and if the horse picks a fights, will defend himself. Horses are perfectly capable of distinguishing between an 'attack' that scares, confuses or irks them versus defence which they tolerate. They are used to being reprimanded by their mothers for crossing lines and accept it with no resentment or fear.
The key is learning the skills for 1&2. Personally I'd recommend getting a trainer to come out and work directly with the horse and teach you how. It would be the quickest and safest way. Plus some of the above advice on self regulation would be helpful.
1) How to establish boundaries so you and your horse can be safe
2) How to stay emotionally regulated while you do so.
3) How you connect with your horse and build a partnership/relationship.
If you do 1&2 then 3 is easy. Horses like boundaries. And you can't connect with a horse that is not safe to be around.
On the other hand anxious over-aroused horse plus anxious over-aroused human is not an effective way to set boundaries and also upsets horses. So 'losing it' neither sets the boundaries effectively nor makes you feel safe for the horse to be around. Which will also prevent connection.
However, once you have done 1&2 you can then start building a partnership using any methods you choose. The real problem with 'methods' focusing on the relationship is that they tend to assume 1&2 are in place already when in many cases they aren't.
If you go to a clinic you will often see horses like pony 2 being very firmly put in their place by a calm, patient but crystal clear trainer saying 'no that is not ok'. And after the clinics I get complaints because 'I thought Joe was gentle". Well yes he is! But is is also boundaried and if the horse picks a fights, will defend himself. Horses are perfectly capable of distinguishing between an 'attack' that scares, confuses or irks them versus defence which they tolerate. They are used to being reprimanded by their mothers for crossing lines and accept it with no resentment or fear.
The key is learning the skills for 1&2. Personally I'd recommend getting a trainer to come out and work directly with the horse and teach you how. It would be the quickest and safest way. Plus some of the above advice on self regulation would be helpful.
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Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Also I don't understand a lot of the flak Miss Millie is getting? I give Lottie a voice too. And I know those reacting to MM also 'respect' their horses choices in many situations. So just not sure what the disagreement is? You all seem to be saying more or less the same thing?
* We do need to handle our horses which can sometimes be uncomfortable for the horse but may be necessary regardless
* We listen to our horses
* We adapt our behaviours if we can get the job done in a way our horse prefers.
* We are generally polite (respectful?) around our horses?
Where is the disagreement?
* We do need to handle our horses which can sometimes be uncomfortable for the horse but may be necessary regardless
* We listen to our horses
* We adapt our behaviours if we can get the job done in a way our horse prefers.
* We are generally polite (respectful?) around our horses?
Where is the disagreement?