Rescuers create horses that need rescued.

[amandap]

I sit on the fence here as I don't believe buying meat ponies will influence the breeding of them. The meat and by product market drives that as well as a mind set of having horses as a side line and allowing them to breed indiscriminately.
There are also cultural reasons people breed this way and some will fight tooth and nail to retain their rights.

 

[Goldenstar]

I sit on the fence here as I don't believe buying meat ponies will influence the breeding of them. The meat market drives that as well as a mind set of having horses as a side line and allowing them to breed indiscriminately.
There are also cultural reasons people breed this way and some will fight tooth and nail to retain their rights.

The Cultural point is a very very good one .
It's part of the culture of a section of the population ( I am not talking about travellers here ) but there is a section of the urban population where this ad hoc breeding and keeping of horses is a form of currency both financially and socially it would make a great PhD study for someone .

 

[ozpoz]

The RSPCA and WHW and the like are in no different than any member of the public anyone has the right to 'rescue ' a horse and give it a better life .
When I was a welfare officer I met many people who went the distance to help a horse in need who crossed their path and I salute these people .
Personally I have always been conflicted about this question why is it ok that a large charity takes in a huge load of welshies say and spends a fortune on them but it's wrong for an individual to make a difference to the life of an animal who touches them .
This is a complicated area it's down to luck the lives horses have .
So it's ok for charities to rehome completely useless horses who will only be lawn mowers but people are not allowed to take in a horse whose plight touches them .
I do agree that lots of people purchasing at sales are not really rescuing they are buying cheap horses in need of a home .
I don't see this as a black and white area

An uncomfortable truth, there Goldenstar.
We would all do better as human beings if we stopped trying to categorise our actions into too few boxes. It is not black and white. There are some excellent charities - and some compassionate knowledgeable individuals who won't close their eyes to an equine appeal in the flesh. It happens.

 

[pennyturner]

Enforceable stallion licences - no licence, stallion confiscated and PTS. That might prevent some of the poor in-bred stock where colts are left running with the herd

Not all stallions are used for breeding. Mine are family ponies. We don't keep mares, and have no intention of doing so, but keep a bachelor herd for riding, as is common in other countries. Buster couldn't be licenced as he's monorchid.

Please don't have Buster PTS!

 

[Goldenstar]

Not all stallions are used for breeding. Mine are family ponies. We don't keep mares, and have no intention of doing so, but keep a bachelor herd for riding, as is common in other countries. Buster couldn't be licenced as he's monorchid.

Please don't have Buster PTS!

Laughs ,
Like I said the collateral damage would be terrible .
I can just see the daily fail page 2 stop this pony breeding madness , page seven heartless government rips buster from the arms of weeping children .
Lovely photograph PT .

 

[suestowford]

And as for personal attacks: it's a free world and if I can't bring myself to speak to those of you who collude in cruelty, by buying thin and sick horses because you enjoy the 'white knight moment' more than you value horses' welfare - that's my choice.

S

It's also other people's choice to take no notice of those who ascribe their own motives to others. I don't much like people who decide what others are thinking and feeling without even bothering to ask. My choice.

 

[_GG_]

An uncomfortable truth, there Goldenstar.
We would all do better as human beings if we stopped trying to categorise our actions into too few boxes. It is not black and white. There are some excellent charities - and some compassionate knowledgeable individuals who won't close their eyes to an equine appeal in the flesh. It happens.

I totally agree with Goldenstars post there too. There should be no reason that individuals who are capable of ensuring the long term care for horses cannot do it. Actually, private individuals would be far more likely in my opinion to destroy a horse that would be better off that way. I left working in welfare because it became too uncomfortable to me. I can't stand seeing a horse or pony put through months and months of extremely expensive treatment, enduring extreme pain and discomfort. Yes, there's a chance that a horse like that can be healthy eventually, but what amount of suffering is worth it. When I left, it was a pony, a little Welsh A that was collapsed and needed to be supported 24/7 with a sling for 9 months. 9 MONTHS of pain and misery and at the end of that, it was deemed that the pony would have no quality of life, so it was put to sleep, so called humanely. There was nothing humane about making that pony suffer for 9 long months. It was an exercise in self righteousness. Humans feeling better when their heads hit the pillow because they thought they were helping. No...helping would have been to put that poor pony to sleep at the start and be able to help a dozen or more others with the money saved. It's not comfortable to think that way, but it is the option that removes suffering and that is the option I will always take.

 

[misskk88]

I am sure someone will have mentioned this at some point.... but 16 pages of reading I cannot handle this morning!

There should be tougher laws and legislation around breeding and also owning ANY animal. People should have to hold licenses to breed and produce, and there should be an authoritive body to help ensure standards of care are maintained (and certainly NOT one that people can buy in to such as 'freedom farm's). I know that there will always be dodgy dealers who slip through the net but the only way to limit the excess of animals which creates the need for a huge majority of 'rescues' is to ensure that there is clear and precise law. This also means suitable punishment for those who choose to breed illegally, and I think a tougher stance on sentences for animal rights abusers can only bring about positive change. Sadly I do not see that happening though. We will continue to overbreed and overproduce and this goes for pets such as cats, dogs, horses and those destined for the meat industry such as cows, sheep, pigs AND horses.

As for the whole 'rescue' case, I see many passed off in this way, which actually are just a bit underweight, in need of some good general care and simply are no longer wanted- yet are claimed as 'rescues'.

Some people do not understand the real genuine cases- many that will never fully recover and will forever have some sort of pain, behavioural problem or condition. I understand that sending these to slaughter is sometimes a better option than to allow them to fester where they are, or to allow them to be passed from one home to the next (cue facebook pages for these poor souls- I once read one free to a good home for breeding, but was clearly defined as a wobbler with behaviour issues *facepalm*). However, I also understand that as humans, we understand empathy and humanity and we will indeed help some horses who go on to be sucessful, well bred horses in loving homes.

The culture of inexperienced owners should not be forgotten as this only fuels some of the points above, as many experienced people will know when an animal has a chance at successful recovery or not, while those with less of an eye for detail or understanding may think they are doing a good deed, when they are only prolonging suffering.

It makes me sad how greedy, selfish and consuming the human race (as a whole, not individuals!) are.

 

[honetpot]

The hole in this argument about getting owners to stop breeding meat horses is that most of them are not bred for meat, sending them for pet food, because they are not chipped is a by product. I can not fully understand it but a lot is cultural.

I know a 91 year old horse dealer, bought for killing most of his life, he can remember the plough horses going straight from the field to be put on a train to be slaughtered. Even at 91 he has a field full of black and whites that he would have once sorted through and sold some privately and the rest would go to the abattoir.

There is very little meat on these small ponies, and supposedly they need a passport to enter the human food chain. The money is in young ex racehorses, they are passported and have a veterinary history. I think the main reason they keep breeding black and whites, welsh ponies and any other volume bred equine is because they have always done it. Look at farmers that still milk cows even though they get a pittance for the milk. I live in an area with a lot of traveller ponies, families have had them for generations, the high value ones are now small, heavy feathered and not black and white. In the good days some of these would be sold for a good profit, and there was plenty of land to keep them on, just like the rest of society they are having trouble finding places to keep them. Yes there will be breeders who churn them out for profit, but there are plenty of breeders of registered ponies that do that. No one seemed to have grasped 5-8 years ago the population was ageing and there would be less young people needing small ponies and coupled with the recession its made a bad situation worse.

 

[3OldPonies]

Not true! Wouldn't touch an ex-racehorse but would definitely go for a native or cob.

Cobgoblin - you't not an anomaly like someone so rudely said, I would go native or cob as well.

I know I couldn't handle an ex-racehorse, I don't have the experience, but am experienced with cobs and natives so that is why it would be my decision as well.

 

[doriangrey]

You asked 'who, legally is in charge and who is getting paid to regulate what is going on?'. You even suggested it was the council's responsibility (that begins and ends with licensing riding schools)!
I explained to you that no one does, and the context of that.
Now you say 'When someone pays me a fat wage for sorting out the passport system...' which suggests that either you didn't read, or didn't understand my post. If you are concerned about horses in ROI (and yes, I think you should be given all that I've read) then contact your regulating authorities and/or act as an individual.
S

I did read and understand your post and your being supercilious does nothing to help validate your point. The local authority angle has been covered so I'm not going over that. Firstly, equine welfare is at a crisis point and there are many, many reasons for this which have been covered above but to target a few individuals who have the compassion and wherewithal to make a difference to a horse's life is like saying
ice cream vans are responsible for child obesity (and I'm not plucking that out of thin air, the govt were discussing banning ice cream vans for this very reason). To suggest they do it for a 'feel good' moment is insulting. More demand for horse-meat will mean more horses being produced - not less. Regulations on the production and welfare of horses as a meat animal should be just as tight as any other meat animal imo - whether they are to enter the food chain or not. Sitting and judging from your lofty perch solves nothing and helps no-one.

 

[Moomin1]

I did read and understand your post and your being supercilious does nothing to help validate your point. The local authority angle has been covered so I'm not going over that. Firstly, equine welfare is at a crisis point and there are many, many reasons for this which have been covered above but to target a few individuals who have the compassion and wherewithal to make a difference to a horse's life is like saying
ice cream vans are responsible for child obesity (and I'm not plucking that out of thin air, the govt were discussing banning ice cream vans for this very reason). To suggest they do it for a 'feel good' moment is insulting. More demand for horse-meat will mean more horses being produced - not less. Regulations on the production and welfare of horses as a meat animal should be just as tight as any other meat animal imo - whether they are to enter the food chain or not. Sitting and judging from your lofty perch solves nothing and helps no-one.

I get your point, but what I don't get is how anyone can possibly think it doesn't have an affect on the larger picture by 'rescuing' one horse from these people. It's not just ONE horse, it's hundreds, because by one person doing it, every other mug ends up doing it, and so on. As mentioned numerous times already, it seems to be a fashionable thing to do these days - 'rescuing' from the meat man and what have you, and it's going on left, right and centre. You only have to click on a FB horse site to see the handfuls of people saying they have 'rescued' a 'terribly sad, thin horse destined for meat', when in actual fact the photo clearly shows a perfectly healthy coloured cob which has the odd crack in it's hoof.

 

[3OldPonies]

GG - a very well thought out post.

Can't say I agree with all of it, but then you probably wouldn't agree with all of my thoughts, which are very mixed on the subject. I see nothing wrong with experienced people, if they are able, rescuing and re-habbing these equines, but equally I can see that the morons who carry on breeding regardless see this as a market slightly more profitable than the meat man. Also, there are are the well meaning but quite frankly idiotic people who cause even more problems by buying a £50 pony for their kids with no idea of what is involved in creating the lovely perfect ponies that they see others riding - this needs to be thoroughly discouraged and FIDES is doing a good job there by getting Oreo's story into the press. I also see that there are overwhelmed charities who haven't been able to stop themselves creating a welfare problem by their own warm-heartedness turning sour, and establish charities who can't say no to accepting more, whilst at the same time preventing re-homing through ridiculous perfectionist demands.

What the answer is to all of this I truly don't know, but until there is one, I think we all just have to do what we can by whatever means to help the ponies as best we can.

 

[Moomin1]

GG - a very well thought out post.

Can't say I agree with all of it, but then you probably wouldn't agree with all of my thoughts, which are very mixed on the subject. I see nothing wrong with experienced people, if they are able, rescuing and re-habbing these equines, but equally I can see that the morons who carry on breeding regardless see this as a market slightly more profitable than the meat man. Also, there are are the well meaning but quite frankly idiotic people who cause even more problems by buying a £50 pony for their kids with no idea of what is involved in creating the lovely perfect ponies that they see others riding - this needs to be thoroughly discouraged and FIDES is doing a good job there by getting Oreo's story into the press. I also see that there are overwhelmed charities who haven't been able to stop themselves creating a welfare problem by their own warm-heartedness turning sour, and establish charities who can't say no to accepting more, whilst at the same time preventing re-homing through ridiculous perfectionist demands.

What the answer is to all of this I truly don't know, but until there is one, I think we all just have to do what we can by whatever means to help the ponies as best we can.

I'm not sure it is a good idea to get the story in the press at all. It depends of course - I haven't seen the article so don't know what details it contains. Does it cover the true costs involved? There is a real danger it could have the opposite desired effect and people rush out to 'get that white knight' moment.

 

[_GG_]

GG - a very well thought out post.

Can't say I agree with all of it, but then you probably wouldn't agree with all of my thoughts, which are very mixed on the subject. I see nothing wrong with experienced people, if they are able, rescuing and re-habbing these equines, but equally I can see that the morons who carry on breeding regardless see this as a market slightly more profitable than the meat man. Also, there are are the well meaning but quite frankly idiotic people who cause even more problems by buying a £50 pony for their kids with no idea of what is involved in creating the lovely perfect ponies that they see others riding - this needs to be thoroughly discouraged and FIDES is doing a good job there by getting Oreo's story into the press. I also see that there are overwhelmed charities who haven't been able to stop themselves creating a welfare problem by their own warm-heartedness turning sour, and establish charities who can't say no to accepting more, whilst at the same time preventing re-homing through ridiculous perfectionist demands.

What the answer is to all of this I truly don't know, but until there is one, I think we all just have to do what we can by whatever means to help the ponies as best we can.

Yep...and as I said in my post, as I learn more, my own beliefs and opinions may very well change, because I am open and not naive enough to think I know that much about it yet. It's a very complex issue that requires an equally complex solution.

 

[pennyturner]

Thoughts:

Value of colt as meat is approx 80p/kilo. Therefore it's clear to me that anyone selling 'meat colts' for less than this is doing so for convenience or to avoid regulations, not for profit as such. They'd get more money at the abbatoir gate (if there were enough convenient abbatoirs).

As regards the horses we actually need... Our island is overstocked with old, lame, unrideable horses and high maintenance OTTB's with difficult temperaments. It seems to me that these should be the ones going for meat, not healthy cobs and natives who'll turn into up-to weight good doers for the happy hackers who are the vast majority of potential owners.

There are a few things we could do to rebalance things:
Encourage charities to PTS worthless equines, rather than clog up the system with lame/old/needy horses.
Open existing non-equine abbatoirs for horse days to make slaughter for meat an easier option if you don't live down the road from Potters
Subsidise PTS of private equines on humane grounds, so that this becomes more attractive than selling on.

 

[3OldPonies]

Thoughts:

Subsidise PTS of private equines on humane grounds, so that this becomes more attractive than selling on.

This is a good idea. It sticks slightly in my craw to say so, but it would solve the problem of oldies and lame/problems horses and ponies doing the rounds and ending up a welfare issue.

 

[Shilasdair]

Cobgoblin - you't not an anomaly like someone so rudely said, I would go native or cob as well.

I know I couldn't handle an ex-racehorse, I don't have the experience, but am experienced with cobs and natives so that is why it would be my decision as well.

You are assuming that, because something is a native or cob, it is suitable for a novice to own and ride, but 'rescues' come with a whole host of health and behavioural issues (not least being lack of handling) which requires an experienced home, and a competent rider.

Look at the clearly competent Fides - she's been kicked already! As an experienced person, she's not unduly worried, but this is often enough for the novice rescuer to advertise the animal for sale due to 'a change in circumstances requires a new home'. The internet is full of these adverts.
S

 

[cobgoblin]

You are assuming that, because something is a native or cob, it is suitable for a novice to own and ride, but 'rescues' come with a whole host of health and behavioural issues (not least being lack of handling) which requires an experienced home, and a competent rider.

Look at the clearly competent Fides - she's been kicked already! As an experienced person, she's not unduly worried, but this is often enough for the novice rescuer to advertise the animal for sale due to 'a change in circumstances requires a new home'. The internet is full of these adverts.
S

Nobody mentioned novices. 3OldPonies said she was experienced with natives and cobs.

 

[pennyturner]

You are assuming that, because something is a native or cob, it is suitable for a novice to own and ride, but 'rescues' come with a whole host of health and behavioural issues (not least being lack of handling) which requires an experienced home, and a competent rider.

Look at the clearly competent Fides - she's been kicked already! As an experienced person, she's not unduly worried, but this is often enough for the novice rescuer to advertise the animal for sale due to 'a change in circumstances requires a new home'. The internet is full of these adverts.
S

Yes, because a OTTB or 'properly bred' horse would never kick! [sarc]
How can anyone argue that natives and cobs aren't GENERALLY easier than blood horses?
Just because a horse has been neglected or mistreated, doesn't make it a psycho. IME, it's more of a problem when they've been coddled and treated, have no respect and see people as polo dispensers.

I would like a £1 for every horse which the owner thinks 'must have been beaten' which is in fact just taking the piss.

 

[Merrymoles]

Not all stallions are used for breeding. Mine are family ponies. We don't keep mares, and have no intention of doing so, but keep a bachelor herd for riding, as is common in other countries. Buster couldn't be licenced as he's monorchid.

Please don't have Buster PTS!

I promise I won't - he's lovely! Really, I am getting at the idea that licensing stallions would be a somewhat smaller task than keeping track of every horse in the country, as the passport system was originally designed to do, and would employ one database to record the information. I'm not suggesting it should be expensive (I'll pay for Buster's ), although there would be associated costs of enforcement, but that it should be a tool to be used to ensure owners can be traced and held responsible for their animals without the complications of identifying every single horse in a herd.

Undoubtedly, there would be those who would still chuck a stallion in with their various herds in different locations and it is not a panacea but if it makes people think about whether to keep a colt entire if they have to register it, it may be a deterrent.

ETA - as soon as I have done some proper work, I'm off to read Fides' thread as I seem to be getting slightly off track here - although I'm getting the general gist. OP, I more or less agreed with the general "don't fund the bar-stewards" approach but also agreed with other posters who say it's sometimes very difficult on an emotional level.

 

[Spudlet]

Just to address this point which I think a couple of people have made in so many words, but I quoted this one as it was the first instance I cam across - the charities do not buy the horses, they have them signed over into their ownership. So unlike somebody who pays an owner for a 'rescue', the charities are not providing the funds or incentive for that person to go and buy another horse for someone else to rescue.

Also remember that rehoming from a charity not only helps that one horse, but frees up a space for the charity to take in and rehabilitate another horse - so rather than create a space on the yard of someone who didn't look after their horse, you are creating space on a yard of people who will look after them very well indeed.

 

[Shilasdair]

Yes, because a OTTB or 'properly bred' horse would never kick! [sarc]
How can anyone argue that natives and cobs aren't GENERALLY easier than blood horses?
Just because a horse has been neglected or mistreated, doesn't make it a psycho. IME, it's more of a problem when they've been coddled and treated, have no respect and see people as polo dispensers.

I would like a £1 for every horse which the owner thinks 'must have been beaten' which is in fact just taking the piss.

What are you talking about?
All horses, Tbs or cobs have the propensity to be dangerous, particularly in novice hands.
Because something is black, white, and hairy doesn't mean it's fine for a novice (or that the novice is fine for the horse either).
S

 

[ester]

Thoughts:

Value of colt as meat is approx 80p/kilo. Therefore it's clear to me that anyone selling 'meat colts' for less than this is doing so for convenience or to avoid regulations, not for profit as such. They'd get more money at the abbatoir gate (if there were enough convenient abbatoirs).

They would, however they would also have had to at the very least pay for a passport and microchipping for the animal so it is profit as such as no outlays.

 

[Regandal]

Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but why can't the government reclass horses as livestock and then DEFRA can police their welfare? These colts are being reared as livestock anyway, might as well have the protection. Need a bit more funding, granted, but I am cynical and suspect the government can find money when it has the will to do so.

 

[cptrayes]

UNTIL we can find a way to confront the problem head on, I would actually support other experienced and solvent people buy these horses as the alternative for the breeder is to abandon and let them starve to death. They can't sell them, can't breed from them and won't spend any money feeding them, so they are destined for a very miserable end to life.

What a very good point. You made me think there, GG, that although they are not rescues when they are taken on, they will become rescues if they are not taken on, due to disposal costs.

What happened to the days when meat horses were worth serious amounts of money, and when I was paid £40 after shooting and collection in 1985 for the hair, hooves and bones of a horse that was so poisoned it was not even fit for pet food?

If these horses were worth more than the cost of getting them to the abattoir there wouldn't be any need for this thread.

 

[cptrayes]

Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but why can't the government reclass horses as livestock and then DEFRA can police their welfare? These colts are being reared as livestock anyway, might as well have the protection. Need a bit more funding, granted, but I am cynical and suspect the government can find money when it has the will to do so.

How many fewer policeman or nurses would you like to have in order to pay for that? Alternatively, how much more tax?

Money aside, thankfully it won't happen but you would certainly not like the result if your horse was suddenly classed as livestock, with all the red tape that involves. Double ear tags, anyone??

 

[pennyturner]

Double ear tags, anyone??

I find it hard enough looking my pigs in the eye when I have to tag them. I don't think I could face doing it to the ponies. It's not the squeal that gets to me; it's the look of betrayal.

... and you'd never get a bridle on again.

 

[Lanky Loll]

I was so tempted to start a similar thread to this after this weekends latest rounds of "save the ponies" via Facebook.

What breaks my heart is when you go to Leominster or any of the native dispersal sales and you see decently bred youngstock, with passports that have been looked after, and they sell for between £5 and £65 - we've got 2 left on the yard at the moment having bought 3 originally, paid a premium for one of them as he's dun - he was £60, lovely lad, standing 13hands now as a 3yo sweet natured and will make a cracking pony, the other two fillies - one needs some more handling but should make a smart kids pony, she's now 4 and just starting to be played with properly cost us £15. The other was the soppiest thing on four legs, and is currently being used as a therapy pony regularly ending up covered in glitter and coloured paint as disadvantaged kids clamber all over her - she loves it and she was £7. So many lovely ponies just like them ended up going to the meat man (NOT the worst outcome I'm the first to admit) whilst these rubbishy bits of badly bred malformed, wormy ponies (yes I know it's no fault of their own) end up "rescued" because someone posts a sob story on faceache.

Makes me so cross!

So many different types of horses and ponies are overbred here in the UK - natives / TBs and rubbishy bits included you can't keep rescuing them, and on this bit Princess Anne was SO right - we need to start eating them to create a bottom of the market.
There's a rumour Potters may be purchasing one of our local abattoirs - brilliant - at the moment it's a long journey to their current premises but I can't fault how they conduct their business. We don't (thankfully) have to visit them often but it's definitely not the worst place to end up.

 

[3OldPonies]

You are assuming that, because something is a native or cob, it is suitable for a novice to own and ride, but 'rescues' come with a whole host of health and behavioural issues (not least being lack of handling) which requires an experienced home, and a competent rider.

Look at the clearly competent Fides - she's been kicked already! As an experienced person, she's not unduly worried, but this is often enough for the novice rescuer to advertise the animal for sale due to 'a change in circumstances requires a new home'. The internet is full of these adverts.
S

Shilasdair, if you'd get your foot out of your mouth for a moment, you would realise that your first paragraph above makes an assumption that you can't quantify. What I said was that I wouldn't have a tb over a cob or native because I have no experience in handling tbs. I did not say that I have no experience full stop or that cobs and natives are suitable for novices.

I don't have to justify myself, but am going to - one of my 'rescues' is a cob who came from a very well to do family that could be classed as 'all the gear and no idea'. He was cut late and is riggy, he thought he ruled the world and had no need for manners, he couldn't be led anywhere in hand, his feet were overgrown, he was wormy, hadn't been groomed for years so matted coat, mane and tail, ran away when ridden, was headshy, would try to have your head off with his feet if you got near his back end to sort his man cave out (after being cut late - I didn't blame him); now he is a lovely old softy in his thirties who is so laid back you wouldn't believe it - he never was a novices horse though - but that is what he started out as and why get got abandoned in a field with a mini shettie for company. By that time he'd been chucked off every livery yard in the vicinity and it was only the kindness of local residents who took feed to the pair of them that got them through the winter before I came along. I think it does qualify me slightly in knowing a little bit about re-habbing a rescue.