Resilience

ester said:
Anyone managing 3 1 hour walks a day seems pretty bonkers to me, I don't think I'd have ever managed that, or been able to afford for someone else to do it for me, I'm not surprised you are struggling now.

MoC I'm great in a crisis, just not very resilient with everything else! Palo I think you also made an interesting point re. crying not equalling failure/emotions being part of the process. Even though I logically know it's not I probably have a core belief that it is (picked up from childhood) that is way harder to shift.
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Yes, it's interesting isn't it? I used to think that wailing and crying and retreating to bed was a symptom of inability to cope/lack of resilience. I know now that it is 'just' an emotional release that is needed sometimes to keep going. I feel much better these days knowing that getting tearful or feeling overwhelmed does not mean I am failing; it is one of the ingredients in being resilient; I cry, retreat to bed or somewhere else for a few hours and that is part of a mental re-set which enables me to keep going in fact. For me, resilience is very much about what I do and how I think rather than the emotional response to the stress of needing to be resilient if you see what I mean ? Emotional resilience is all part of it of course but that doesn't mean not showing emotions. indeed I think acknowledging difficult emotions is pretty important in developing resilience. You can't fight everything!!
 
Sorry to hear you are feeling like this. I was completely distraught when my ISH was diagnosed with navicular a couple of years ago. I wen through a year of trying to rehab him and get him better before I called it a day. Not only was pts the right thing to do for him at that stage, I was permanently upset and anxious for the reasons you mentioned above. Sad as it was, I felt a relief when he was finally at peace even though I still miss him terribly. It was very stressful and not something I would wish on anyone. I think the worst part is you feel so alone in the decision making as you are the only one who can make the decisions and have the final say. There is a group called BHS friends at the end who may help and offer some
Support for pts but for rehabbing I agree, there isn’t enough mental support out there.
 
Cortez said:
It's not just with horses though, I feel that people have become much less resilient in all areas than they used to be. I know I am far tougher both mentally and physically than my younger acquaintances, perhaps because I have more life experience. It may also be due to coming from a farming background where life and death are more to the forefront. That's just the way it is, AKA buckle up buttercup, was a phrase used often when I was a child.
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honetpot said:
I think young people are just not to the realities of life from a young people now. My sister must have been about 10 when she saw my grandma dying at home, she was also in the house when my mum had a still birth. My mum talked about the still birth, so when I was pregnant I did not assume I would come home with a baby, every thing was ordered, but not collected until she was born.
I am not suggesting people say, just get over it.
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I know some young people who are incredibly resilient and they shock me with how strong they are, however there are a lot who are sheltered (I have a few friends as an adult who have been very sheltered growing up) and I think that can make it harder to empathise with people who are going through a tough time. But you just have to look at any schools CP stats and you will be surprised with how many children and teenagers are going through really tough times that you’d never know about.

I think horses have definitely taught me to be resilient and encourages my stubborn streak! Although I’ve not had much to do with equine vets I’ve always found my livestock and small animals vets sympathetic while remaining professional and giving me all the options available, I don’t think it’s a vets resposi to provide emotis support to owners and as an owner I’d rather they were focused on my animal and doing what’s best for them.

I compete with dogs, 2019 after our first summer competing she came up lame and for 3 months we couldn’t find out why. Rehabbed and ready to compete again and a pandemic struck, gave her a break and when everything started to open up she was really ill for at least 6 months and ended up in referral hospitals, I gave up all hope of ever competing her again which broke my heart as she loved it, the beginning of 2021 she started to improve and we spent last summer competing and had the most success we’ve ever had. I know how hard it can be, and knowing that they are uncomfortable or in pain is a huge stress as you just want to take it away.
 
Yes I think Vets should have some training on dealing with the emotions around animals.No one has a magic wand. No one can cure everything or stop animals dying but often its how its handled can mean the difference between prolonged suffering and acceptance and moving forward.Read up about the stages of grief.
For those people who would say they are only animals, look at the Ukrainians fleeing for their lives but bringing their dogs and cats with them because they "are family".
 
Maybe I’m strange.

I have seen too many pets and equines allowed to suffer because owners have felt compelled (for various reasons) to try every last treatment. Some of these beautiful, much loved animals became miserable, some became dangerous to handle.

I was there with my parents when Dad was treated for leukaemia. He was able to say no, he didn’t think the treatment and side effects were worth it for him.

We have to be that voice for our animals. I view it as a privilege that we can ensure that they don’t suffer unnecessarily, while we can’t guarantee the same peaceful end for our human partners.

They are not only animals, they are our companions and family members, they bring us pleasure and heartbreak - but it is our duty to ensure they don’t suffer. I’m a great believer in not only a week too soon better than a day too late, but also just because we can doesn’t mean we should. I have found being open with vets about these views at the start of the diagnosis/treatment journey makes for easier discussions about benefit, risks, outcomes and costs.

I have my red lines for each animal, which may make the decisions less complicated at the time.
 
He started off at 2 minutes it took a long time to get to the 3 hourly walks. He he is a bit colic prone so needed to come out 3 times a day to get enough movement.

Shilasdair said:
I am not a vet - but three one hour walks a day seems excessive.
How does the injury heal if the horse is walking so much - and what is the point of it?
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SO1 said:
He started off at 2 minutes it took a long time to get to the 3 hourly walks. He he is a bit colic prone so needed to come out 3 times a day to get enough movement.
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My two both had colic surgery - and I never walked them for 3 hours a day.
What's the rationale for it?
I'm interested because I used to work for a vet on a big rehabilitation yard - I've never heard of that amount of walking.
As an aside, we used to be given lame horses who had received ALL the treatments (ultrasound, laser, you name it) for rehabilitation. I am sure the ex-owners believed we would do intensive therapy with them - but we turned them away to grass, and trotted them up every few months. If sound, we'd start ridden walking work. If lame - back in the field.
Many of them went sound.
If you were able to do this, it would take some pressure off you, perhaps.
 
I certainly have walked out TBs for 2 x 45m a day when rehabbing. 3 x 1h is a huge commitment.
Obviously don’t know the issue with yours OP but I’d also be thinking about turning away to see what happens for a while if possible but I guess that would have been suggested if appropriate.
 
Lack of movement causing colic. He had two colics whilst on box rest he was started on 2 walks a day which is standard but he was doing three to try and prevent colic.

I did think about turning him away but he is a good doer native so a bit risky as hard to find places to turn away which do not have rich grass. I just followed the vet programme as thought that would give him the best chance and as I am livery on a rehab yard they said they had rehabilitated lots of horses with the same injury successfully. At the time vet said it would only be a few months I did not think it was going to be this long.

If this lameness in a different leg turns out to be another soft tissue injury I wouldn't do another 8 months of rehab it would be retire. He is sound in walk so would hope that he is field sound and could retire with danilon.

The vet who briefly saw him on Friday when he was being ridden by one of the grooms is from my vet practice and happened to be at the yard said it was ok to continue to ride in walk and to go on the horsewalker until his normal vet sees him on Monday.

Shilasdair said:
My two both had colic surgery - and I never walked them for 3 hours a day.
What's the rationale for it?
I'm interested because I used to work for a vet on a big rehabilitation yard - I've never heard of that amount of walking.
As an aside, we used to be given lame horses who had received ALL the treatments (ultrasound, laser, you name it) for rehabilitation. I am sure the ex-owners believed we would do intensive therapy with them - but we turned them away to grass, and trotted them up every few months. If sound, we'd start ridden walking work. If lame - back in the field.
Many of them went sound.
If you were able to do this, it would take some pressure off you, perhaps.
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I think once you have had the vet on Monday and made a decision about what happens next you’ll feel happier. Sometimes it’s the not knowing which is hardest.

I seem to recall you posted in vet section before that if he didn’t come right from the last thing you wouldn’t keep trying.
Some horses unfortunately just don’t come right.

I know when my mare had a million issues, if I could keep all the plates spinning and manage her just so, she’d be ok.
But real life doesn’t work like that and when a yard I really loved turned out to be a disaster and I’d exhausted a lot of other yards, combined with her struggling with the latest rehab, I called it a day.
Maybe if I could have found the perfect yard it would have panned out and we’d have got through another rehab but it wasn’t to be and I had to accept that.
In all honesty, with her and my previous horse (also had a few issues and struggled with being retired, boy do I regret that ‘last summer’) it was a relief.

In the early days, during her second(?) rehab I burnt out completely. I got lucky and her previous owner took her back and chucked her in a field for me.
It removed the stress and I enjoyed having her again.

Yes, it’s wonderful to aim for the 5* treatment and to know you’ve given it your all, but at what cost?!
Your yard do it day in, day out but it’s not their horses so there’s no emotional trauma there. And because they’re so practiced at it and on site it’s easier for them if it is one of theirs.

I hope you don’t mind me saying, your vets aren’t one I would use, they’re not very pragmatic or good at adapating the plan to an individual horse/owner, they tend to throw the kitchen sink at a situation, which is fine for some people and not others.
Im not so sure it’s down to resilience training/emotional support but as finding a vet who works with you individually sometimes.
My last vet was fantastic, put up with all sorts of nonsense from the horse - and me really! I could really have an open conversation with her, run ideas past her and she wasn’t afraid to think outside the box to cater for my horses quirks. It made things much much easier.

There is a track livery yard, in west horsley, a short walk from a mainline station into London if that gives you another option.
 
Thank you but I can't do DIY so it would need to be a part livery place.

[QUOTE="chaps89, post: 14877412, member: 62832"

There is a track livery yard, in west horsley, a short walk from a mainline station into London if that gives you another option.[/QUOTE]
 
Resilience! I've thought about that quite a lot in the last couple of years as I've had some unexpected and unwanted "challenges" and that's without Covid. So fwiw my survival method has been change what I can and accept what I can't, layered with a huge dollop of recognising every single positive thing that happens each and every day rather than focusing on the negatives. I have, of course, failed miserably on occasions and been angry, self pitying and just very sad but luckily I have some very good friends who have helped me through and OH, although pretty rubbish at the emotional stuff is great at all the practical things.
SO1 three hours of walking each day is totally mad! It's really important that you make time in your day for you to have something to smile about and enjoy. Work plus looking after your pony must suck every ounce of energy out of you. The pony will either come sound or not and tbh your mental health needs more attention than he does, at least for the time being. My horse was injured over a year ago and despite doing everything by the book and eventually turning her away for the last 6 months, she's still not right and I've accepted that I may have to pts as she's just become hopping lame again. She's 14 and I hoped she'd take me to the end of my riding days! However, in the hierachy of current worries, my horses issues come pretty low on the list and actually when I was rehabbing her I found her a welcome distraction. I don't mean to minimise your obvious distress or be unkind but there are lots of things far worse than having a lame horse but if that is all you have in your life, I can see that it could become overwhelming. You deserve more! You clearly love your pony very much, perhaps you could try to love yourself and your own needs too and get a better balance. Sending a hug. xx
 
It is my experience with horses (and I've had a few years of it) that colics just happen.
Vets like to clutch at reasons in order to give the horse owner something to do, to feel useful.
If a horse colics on box rest 'oh, it's lack of movement'. If a horse colics in the field 'oh, it's too much grass'. If that fails they say 'Not enough fibre in the diet'.

If a human has a soft tissue injury to ligaments, tendons or muscle, you would never make them walk for three hours a day - you'd make them do a little bit of walking with sensible exercises, and ensure they had plenty of relaxation/down time.

You must be exhausted by all of this - maybe start being kinder to yourself - and ignoring your vet a bit more (they are not infallible, you know ;)).
 
SO1 said:
Thank you but I can't do DIY so it would need to be a part livery place.

[QUOTE="chaps89, post: 14877412, member: 62832"

There is a track livery yard, in west horsley, a short walk from a mainline station into London if that gives you another option.
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[/QUOTE]

Apologies, I was under the impression it was part livery (there was one originally in a different field down the road that was definitley part, then another one opened up which is the one I’m thinking of, not sure if it’s an additional one or the same one in a different field in fairness)

If it helps, I could recommend the most fabulous freelancer who has her own yard literally around the corner, even paying diy track livery and her daily I imagine would be cheaper than part livery where you are, might be another option to think about. (I honestly can’t recommend her highly enough, and knowing you would rely on her completely as you can’t get there, I wouldn’t suggest her if she wasn’t reliable)
 
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Thank you.

I am sorry about your horse and hope it is not PTS. Thankfully mine is not hopping lame. I was able to do two gentle walk rides as advised by vet and he seemed fine with that. If those were the last rides we have together they were nice ones.

I think you are right all my eggs are in one basket and with Covid and living on my own he has become my sole companion. I have quite a stressful job and also trying to buy a property for my elderly parents to get them back from France and spending time with my pony is how I unwind. I do have friends outside of horses but Covid and rehab has meant I have hardly seen anyone.

I have always been seen as the independent one in my family being able to look after myself and doing everything myself.

On a positive note he was tested for EMS and Cushings and does not have either. If he can be field sound that will be good enough for me even better would be if he can remain close enough for me to see him after work and weekends and it would be wonderful if he could still do some walk rides.

oldie48 said:
Resilience! I've thought about that quite a lot in the last couple of years as I've had some unexpected and unwanted "challenges" and that's without Covid. So fwiw my survival method has been change what I can and accept what I can't, layered with a huge dollop of recognising every single positive thing that happens each and every day rather than focusing on the negatives. I have, of course, failed miserably on occasions and been angry, self pitying and just very sad but luckily I have some very good friends who have helped me through and OH, although pretty rubbish at the emotional stuff is great at all the practical things.
SO1 three hours of walking each day is totally mad! It's really important that you make time in your day for you to have something to smile about and enjoy. Work plus looking after your pony must suck every ounce of energy out of you. The pony will either come sound or not and tbh your mental health needs more attention than he does, at least for the time being. My horse was injured over a year ago and despite doing everything by the book and eventually turning her away for the last 6 months, she's still not right and I've accepted that I may have to pts as she's just become hopping lame again. She's 14 and I hoped she'd take me to the end of my riding days! However, in the hierachy of current worries, my horses issues come pretty low on the list and actually when I was rehabbing her I found her a welcome distraction. I don't mean to minimise your obvious distress or be unkind but there are lots of things far worse than having a lame horse but if that is all you have in your life, I can see that it could become overwhelming. You deserve more! You clearly love your pony very much, perhaps you could try to love yourself and your own needs too and get a better balance. Sending a hug. xx
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The problem is he is not allowed to canter or gallop yet so if he went in the biggerbfield he might do that. If he just walked around then that would be fine I expect.

He is meant to be going out sedated for 2 or 3 hours but the weather has not been on our side as there is not much grass yet in the sick paddock he is meant to be going into next as another horse has been using it and it needs to be slit in two for him and someone stole the electric fence battery. If there is not much grass he is not one for standing around quietly we have to be a bit careful as he jump out of the isolation paddock when got fed up being in there when he was recovering from a broken splint bone in 2012.

At the moment he is goes in the middle of the horse walker for 45 minutes for a bit of grass and mouch around.

Cortez said:
It would be my opinion that if your horse can walk for three hours a day it can do that on it's own in a field. Your vet sounds a little off the wall and not one I would be using.
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Quite possibly if you are in South Buck/Berkshire area.

I am apparently lucky he can have pen turnout before cantering.

He did 3 walks a day till he got to 40 minutes in hand. I then had to do 2 walks a day plus start at 15 minutes under saddle till I got to riding for one hour plus two one hour walking in hand or on walker.

I then had to start trotting at which point my pony who is usually riding for the disabled quiet as I am quite a nervous rider and had behaved impeccably during the 6 months of walking in hand and under saddle whilst on box rest phase decided he had had enough and started wanting to buck and get excited when asked to trot. This meant I have had to pay a professional rider to get him trotting again.

To be fair pony has been amazingly well behaved and I was lucky I managed to do the 6 weeks riding in walk during the winter on my own plus doing a fair bit of the walking in hand on my own in evenings and weekends. A lot of people are reliant on the horse walker if they have a sharp horse. I did 6 months of walking.

SEL said:
My vet practice said I needed to get to 2 x 1 hour walks a day. At that point I chucked her in a field in the hope that she wouldn't be too silly.

I'm not surprised you're feeling stressed. I think they forget we have lives outside rehabbing these horses. I'm also wondering if we're using the same vet!
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Shilasdair said:
As an aside, we used to be given lame horses who had received ALL the treatments (ultrasound, laser, you name it) for rehabilitation. I am sure the ex-owners believed we would do intensive therapy with them - but we turned them away to grass, and trotted them up every few months. If sound, we'd start ridden walking work. If lame - back in the field.
Many of them went sound.
If you were able to do this, it would take some pressure off you, perhaps.
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I totally agree with this. I think the pressure to have a horse sound and working or even competing can be very strong. For many people the costs associated with keeping a horse in a certain way also means that the horse 'needs' to be in work to justify the expense. However, as Shils says many horses are likely to come good after a prolonged period of being turned away - and over time this may be a cheaper option than continued rehabilitation treatments. In my experience TBs, Warmbloods and Arab crosses as well as natives are all fine being turned out all year as long as they have some shelter, appropriate rugs, adequate forage and hard feed if needed. However, I do realise that good grass turnout is at a premium in some parts of the country and also that it can take some horses time to adjust to a change in their management.
 
Just had a good chat with my sister. She was saying that when her first dog was elderly and having a mobility problem the vets said there was an operation and rehabilitation that might help and she did it but the dog got worse. She said she wished she had gone for painkillers and a shorter life than going down the operation route to try and fix the problem and extend life.

She also it is much harder with decisions when you are in the situation with your first elderly or unwell pet. She said with her current dog she will do things differently.

It is also about confidence when discussing difficult scenarios with the vet.
 
2 years is a long time for a horse or any animal for that matter to be having health issues and I imagine it would be draining on yourself both financially, physically and mentally.

I would never expect a vet to provide emotional support as I feel they see so much sadness and death already without having an emotional connection to it, that it would impact their own mental health. Imagine having to provide emotional support for 5 people who need to euthanize their horses week in, week out. Vets don't need the extra business, they are doing fine and they have to look after their own mental health and owners need to do the same. I feel if you want an answer for what is best for your horse you just need to ask, what would you do? What is the best option for a 20YO pony who hacks occasionally? Is it time to call it a day? Generally vets wont just come out and tell you what they think or what they would do as its not for them to decide.

I also would not expect the yard owner to be your emotional support, its not their job. Their job is to provide facilities and/or look after your horse.

I do think that you do need to see and talk to someone about your state of mental health, it may not give you answers for your horse but it will give you tools on how to deal with your emotions and make clear decisions.

You also get to a point where you need to step back and ask yourself, is this in the best interests of the horse? Is two years of the horse being in pain, confined, being subjected to treatment (remember any lameness, soreness, stiffness, reluctance to move etc IS a pain response, horses don't limp because they are happy and comfortable) justifiable? I have always capped this at 3 months, if the horse isn't pain free in 3 months its time to PTS and I have, quite a few in fact.

I feel these sorts of things need to be set before you are in this situation, would you put your horse through colic surgery? What is the limit of the amount you will pay for treatment? How long would you allow a horse to get around lame? Having these answers ready and written down to look at gives you your unclouded perspective to refer to.
 
Shilasdair said:
Someone mentioned that vets are no longer allowed to suggest PTS - I don't know if that's true, I hope not.
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Definitely not the case!

I think it's probably worth mentioning that everyone draws the line in different places. And even the same person might draw the line in a different place on two different occasions. In scenarios where some people would PTS without question, others would choose treatment. As vets it is impossible to second guess people, so we always offer options. I have been surprised by clients' choices, and even those of people I knew quite well. Back in the day when I did some small animal work one of my farm clients, a chap that I knew pretty well and was as tough as Yorkshire farmers come, brought me in his working Collie with a fractured (completely smashed) back leg after she'd run under his tractor whilst he'd been feeding cattle. The dog was already at the end of its working life and half blind so in my head there was only one reason he'd brought it to me. Wrong! He wanted everything to be done and I ended up amputating the leg and the dog went on to live out its days as his pet. Similarly I've had what I'd consider to be pretty emotionally attached people, with the time, money and facilities to retire and horse in comfort, or to give it 6 months off in the field, request PTS for horses with minor injuries with a good prognosis for a return to work.

We cannot know what is going on in people's lives or what their attachments or priorities are. There is always a back story. They might have had a horse with this condition previously, and had bad experiences with treatment and have resolved never to go down that route again. Or the horse might be their only link to a deceased family member and they want to do whatever it takes. The day we start second guessing clients or removing options from the list because we don't think that the client will go for it will be a sad day. So we lay the options out and give as much information as possible, and let the client make the choice. It has to be that way. But we should always include PTS in that list if it is a reasonable option. Whether or not the client picks it depends entirely on where their own personal lines are drawn.
 
Thank you.

Vet coming between 12-1 so hopefully as this is lunch time I will be able to take the call.

I have briefed YO and said I don't want him to do a further 8 months of box rest if it is a soft tissue injury as that would mean 18 months of box rest back to back and I think that is too much for a 20 year old horse and I will retire or let him enjoy a final few months in the field over summer. Obviously this goes against what she would recommend and it is an emotive subject he is a lovely natured pony and a real yard favourite and long term resident. I have said I understand the risks of doing this and if it is soft tissue retirement or turn away may make it worse and lead to PTS. I love him very dearly and it is incredibly hard to make this sort of decision.

I am hoping it is just a bit of age related arthritis.

chaps89 said:
Hoping everything goes ok with the vet today for you OP.
Know you won’t be there in person but hope some of the advice on this thread and your chat with your sister has helped
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fawaz said:
2 years is a long time for a horse or any animal for that matter to be having health issues and I imagine it would be draining on yourself both financially, physically and mentally.

I would never expect a vet to provide emotional support as I feel they see so much sadness and death already without having an emotional connection to it, that it would impact their own mental health. Imagine having to provide emotional support for 5 people who need to euthanize their horses week in, week out. Vets don't need the extra business, they are doing fine and they have to look after their own mental health and owners need to do the same. I feel if you want an answer for what is best for your horse you just need to ask, what would you do? What is the best option for a 20YO pony who hacks occasionally? Is it time to call it a day? Generally vets wont just come out and tell you what they think or what they would do as its not for them to decide.

I also would not expect the yard owner to be your emotional support, its not their job. Their job is to provide facilities and/or look after your horse.

I do think that you do need to see and talk to someone about your state of mental health, it may not give you answers for your horse but it will give you tools on how to deal with your emotions and make clear decisions.

You also get to a point where you need to step back and ask yourself, is this in the best interests of the horse? Is two years of the horse being in pain, confined, being subjected to treatment (remember any lameness, soreness, stiffness, reluctance to move etc IS a pain response, horses don't limp because they are happy and comfortable) justifiable? I have always capped this at 3 months, if the horse isn't pain free in 3 months its time to PTS and I have, quite a few in fact.

I feel these sorts of things need to be set before you are in this situation, would you put your horse through colic surgery? What is the limit of the amount you will pay for treatment? How long would you allow a horse to get around lame? Having these answers ready and written down to look at gives you your unclouded perspective to refer to.
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Doctors and nurses see plenty of emotional trauma but are still expected to off emotional support even when they have to give very bad news.
There are stages of grief.Well documented. No one is immune from it but handled correctly it can shorten the intense grieving and allow other people to accept what has happened and move on.
People also have to make decisions, sometimes difficult ones, about themselves or on behalf of a child or vulnerable relative.
 
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