Rhythm v forwardness in dressage

[Cortez]

I have a tendency to get lazy at home and sort of just poddle about in the "happy place". Taking the odd clinic or lesson does give us a shot in the bum, but at one I actually refused to push my horse (Spanish, and so unfamiliar type for the clinician) in the way he wanted. I did apologise afterwards, and showed them what I was trying to accomplish. He did understand after we showed our (pretty good, if I say so myself) baby piaffe, which is the way I prefer to engage this particular complicated horse. Not all horses are the same.

 

[nikkimariet]

People often mistake forwards for speed rather than activity and impulsion.

Nova has a naturally beautiful rhythm. But he's naturally behind the leg a little too.

Fig is naturally very forwards and by that I mean he's a runaway freight train and needs a little help with the rhythm.

 

[Bernster]

NM I def struggle with that in dressage and more so in jumping! I’m getting there in the flatwork and understanding speed v impulsion a little better but my horse is a bit behind the leg so it’s a tricky balancing act. Jumping I get the red mist and cannot gauge it very well at all but I’m on a mini jumping boot camp (picking up again in Jan) to try and help crack it!

 

[be positive]

People often mistake forwards for speed rather than activity and impulsion.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...in-dressage.770812/page-2#TicGd6Hu5yzBJxBo.99

Very often the two are confused, forward can appear to be slow if the horse is well balanced and working within it's comfort zone, it can give the rider more time to 'ride', if the horse is thinking forward and in front of the leg it may look a bit lazy but if you really look at the hind leg and back you will see the power and self carriage, all too often we spend too much time watching the head and not where the energy is generated.

I would generally be a balance first person but as we all know there are some that require energy/ motivation first, not sure that forwardness is always the best way of putting it as that can be interpreted as speed.

 

[blitznbobs]

Right - could you at least bully me a little bit I’m feeling left out👿

 

[Cortez]

Right - could you at least bully me a little bit I’m feeling left out👿

Oh alright! There, feeling better?

 

[blitznbobs]

Oh alright! There, feeling better?

Well as the biggest bully of the lot I am honoured 😉

 

[oldie48]

People often mistake forwards for speed rather than activity and impulsion.

Nova has a naturally beautiful rhythm. But he's naturally behind the leg a little too.

Fig is naturally very forwards and by that I mean he's a runaway freight train and needs a little help with the rhythm.

Rose is like Nova and Bisto was like Fig but actually he was sometimes behind the leg and was used speed to balance himself. It took me quite a long time to appreciate that I needed to use more leg when he felt a bit runaway rather than less. Rose's rhythm is naturally very good but she can be a bit slow to react to aids (not sure if that's just me finding the buttons, her lack of fitness/ muscle or a bit of laziness, probably a mix of all three!). However, hacking out yesterday she had a lovely rhythm and she was certainly forward and in front of the leg but she felt tight and blocky. Ten minutes out she gave a long sigh and relaxed, the quality of the walk immediately improved. Perhaps it's all about riding what you have under you on the day?

 

[Fluffypiglet]

Despite all the histrionics on the other thread, I learnt a lot from all you uninformed bullies... 😋. My horse gets tense when out and about but looks ‘pretty’ (we’re working on being correct rather than ‘pretty’ - work in progress) he has a very tight chin but otherwise his tension is quite well hidden. When the bell goes in the arena, he goes from spooky tense thing, sort of sighs and goes flat. To use a human reaction (and I can’t spell the proper word) it’s like he finds the bell the cue for “trotting in boring circles for 5mins”. Obviously I can’t see his chin of tension but he definitely changes when that bell goes. Last test he was noted to be “calm and obedient, now needs to show a little energy”. Could I take that to mean we’ve got the rhythm bit? We usually get placed 2nd (we’re only doing prelims). I think I go a bit passive because I expect him to go tense again and spend 5 mins a)trying to breath and remember test and b) wondering why I’m sat on a ploddy slow horse who doesn’t resemble the one I came in on? If the judges words are code for something else, please tell me. I won’t cry or argue!

 

[Bernster]

‘Chin of tension’ 🤣 love it. Sounds very like mine, looks pretty enough to score ok but lacks uumph and rider and horse too tense to really do good work in the arena. Lovely and active in the warm up though. I assume lots of that is down to me and our relative inexperience in the ring.

Instructor recommends that I expect a lot more from both of us and that, plus trying to be more relaxed when I compete (now there’s a conundrum, trying to fake relaxation when I’m actually nervous), did help us last time out. Am having a go at team quest next year so hopefully more fun to be had. Tense and kick a long but hey we have to start somewhere 😉

 

[tatty_v]

Love the “chin of tension” description! My boy is naturally very rhythmical, so we prioritise a bit more “forwards” as he can get a bit lazy (why put the effort in when there are no jumps?!) When we get it it feels fantastic, but I’ve never managed that feeling in the ring. As soon as I trot down that centre line I ride like a lemon!

 

[DabDab]

Love the “chin of tension” description! My boy is naturally very rhythmical, so we prioritise a bit more “forwards” as he can get a bit lazy (why put the effort in when there are no jumps?!) When we get it it feels fantastic, but I’ve never managed that feeling in the ring. As soon as I trot down that centre line I ride like a lemon!

You mean you've never had yours lock onto the white boards as a jump when performing medium trot (read scuttle) across the diagonal??!! My dear, you must not be doing it right!

 

[tatty_v]

You mean you've never had yours lock onto the white boards as a jump when performing medium trot (read scuttle) across the diagonal??!! My dear, you must not be doing it right!

Now you remind me, he did fall over the white boards once whilst not listening to me (Me: “could you please bend in the direction of travel and I suggest you move or we’re going to crash in the corner” Him: “lalalala *crash*”). What cracked me up was how he immediately jumped back over the boards into the arena and tried to style it out as if no one would have noticed. Genuinely if he could have whistled and shouted “nothing to see here” he would have done!

 

[Cortez]

Despite all the histrionics on the other thread, I learnt a lot from all you uninformed bullies... 😋. My horse gets tense when out and about but looks ‘pretty’ (we’re working on being correct rather than ‘pretty’ - work in progress) he has a very tight chin but otherwise his tension is quite well hidden. When the bell goes in the arena, he goes from spooky tense thing, sort of sighs and goes flat. To use a human reaction (and I can’t spell the proper word) it’s like he finds the bell the cue for “trotting in boring circles for 5mins”. Obviously I can’t see his chin of tension but he definitely changes when that bell goes. Last test he was noted to be “calm and obedient, now needs to show a little energy”. Could I take that to mean we’ve got the rhythm bit? We usually get placed 2nd (we’re only doing prelims). I think I go a bit passive because I expect him to go tense again and spend 5 mins a)trying to breath and remember test and b) wondering why I’m sat on a ploddy slow horse who doesn’t resemble the one I came in on? If the judges words are code for something else, please tell me. I won’t cry or argue!

That's not that unusual - horses which switch off in the arena. What happens a lot is the riders stop riding when they enter at A (I've been known to do this), and the horse just sort of wanders around with a frozen person on their back. Once you have achieved the loose chin, then you can start to add a bit of oomph and ultimately "Look at Me!"

My competition ritual ends with saying the words "Showtime!" out loud as we set foot in the arena.

 

[milliepops]

My competition ritual ends with saying the words "Showtime!" out loud as we set foot in the arena.

love it!
I think Kira is finally ready for "showtime" she was definitely the one that went tight in the arena, not me, but I think I was guilty of over-riding her in the early days, slightly panicking that she had completely dropped me. Hard to assess, in the 5 mins you have there, whether to sit quiet and let the horse mince around or whether it would be more useful if you got after it and tried to break the tightness through movement! As Red said earlier possibly in the other thread, sometimes it helps to throw a test to work out what the better approach is.

it's taken 3 years to truly crack it but I think she has her sass-pants now!

 

[DabDab]

Now you remind me, he did fall over the white boards once whilst not listening to me (Me: “could you please bend in the direction of travel and I suggest you move or we’re going to crash in the corner” Him: “lalalala *crash*”). What cracked me up was how he immediately jumped back over the boards into the arena and tried to style it out as if no one would have noticed. Genuinely if he could have whistled and shouted “nothing to see here” he would have done!

😂 lalalalala

 

[Bernster]

Love the ‘showtime’ approach, can def see that helping. Agree about not quite knowing what to do in the arena and the risk is you just freeze up and hope it gets better. I’m getting the hang of the fact that I can intervene and correct or ask for something different to recover it if it goes awry.

 

[Fluffypiglet]

Useful stuff! Yes I think I become a frozen lemon and am scared to intervene with the horse just in case! I’m aware I can over ride and rush him in his paces plus I generally forget to breathe and have ended up panting at the final halt. Utter idiot that I am! Might make it more fun for both of us if I just actually ride and I love the idea of showtime! What a revelation 😂. We did do a test in a field once with short lengths of white guttering marking out the arena. He wasn’t bored in that test and we did exit the arena a couple of times! Wasn’t pretty 🙃

 

[Denbob]

I've certainly had instructors who ask for more forwardness than Denzel is comfortable with (at least to ride) and it does feel like his shoulders struggle to keep up with his back end - hoping that it'll come as he grows into himself a bit more - but he does have to go quite slowly to feel balanced and like he's got an engine!

Might borrow the "showtime" approach at the moment I have to sing to myself to keep myself breathing when things go a little bit pear shaped, need to get better at not moving my lips though or the judge will think I'm barking mad 😂

 

[Cortez]

I've certainly had instructors who ask for more forwardness than Denzel is comfortable with (at least to ride) and it does feel like his shoulders struggle to keep up with his back end - hoping that it'll come as he grows into himself a bit more - but he does have to go quite slowly to feel balanced and like he's got an engine!

Might borrow the "showtime" approach at the moment I have to sing to myself to keep myself breathing when things go a little bit pear shaped, need to get better at not moving my lips though or the judge will think I'm barking mad 😂

You have to say it like Denzel Washington to be really effective

 

[Denbob]

You have to say it like Denzel Washington to be really effective

When he's not being addressed solely with expletives I'll certainly start doing that 😂

 

[Carrottom]

I think of the "tits and teeth" expression with always makes me chuckle and so helps to stop the jaw/neck/ shoulders and rest of body from freezing.

 

[ycbm]

Well I've ridden two green horses for 25 minutes each this morning, and I can definitely confirm that in that short space of time, I had to send on to obtain rhythm and steady back to obtain rhythm, several times on each horse .

I can also confirm that the ex racer I bought whose owners/trainer said they teach them circles hasn't got further in training than a thrupenny bit 😂. Which comes first for you? Circles or straight?

 

[blitznbobs]

Straight before circles but then I need circles to get truly straight... the first thing I actually actively teach on board is to follow the rein... so if I pull left rein move head left and vice versa... but I guess I’ve taught move forward before I even put my bottom in the saddle

 

[Cortez]

Straight to ride away, and circles as soon as possible (well, any corner is a 1/4 circle anyway). Not a massive circle fan these days, I'd rather do figure eights and teardrops than endless circles. Just ridden my green one this morning too. Pics later p'raps...

 

[Meredith]

So much good info here I might get brain fade BUT keep it coming. Thanks

 

[ycbm]

I find I have to use bends for the horse to go straight with relaxation and reaching forwards instead of giraffe neck and set shoulders. Like you, Cortez, teardrop serpentines and figures of eight, but I'm lucky to have a 30m wide arena that makes things much easier with very green horses. I got some lovely strides from both this morning, and you can really feel how they free their backs when they 'get it', but it has to begin on a bend with both of them at the moment.

 

[blitznbobs]

It’s a really useful exercise to think about this.... I was thinking about it when I rode my youngster this am... he’s too big and wobbly to do lots of circles but I am teaching bend - and because of this thread began analysing what I was doing... it isn’t a case of doing one thing then another really, it’s a case of having enough forward ness to achieve rhythm without pushing too far and then gaining bend by whatever means works for that horse- he got confused by circles so I taught him a bit of leg yeild to get the shoulders going the right way but it’s not necessarily what I’d do on a different horse - I guess I teach a little bit of all of it at the same time and each thing helps the next... but having never taught anyone else to ride have never really analysed what I do before which is actually a very useful exercise in and of itself.