Rider size limits enforced as part of new welfare rules

[sbloom]

I must admit I wouldn't have bought my girl if I couldn't have fitted in a saddle that fitted her regardless of my weight being okay. I wouldn't want to be jammed in with my weight on the cantle but it's not unusual to see.

And yet that is much more complex than seat size, I have riders who will sit off the cantle in a 16" and on the cantle in a 17" because of seat shape, construction type (bulk under the thighs) and the shape of the horse's ribcage. Little understood even in saddle fitting circles, it does mean sometimes a larger rider can be seated really well on a short back, sometimes not, so not helpful when making decisions about which horse to buy...

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

I think if people learned how to not fall onto their horses backs and sore them many would learn plenty of horses are perfectly comfortable and capable of long term carrying up to 30%. 20% is fine and reasonable for a weaker/unbalanced rider but studies are showing a for horse with well fitted tack and a balanced rider can carry up to 30% comfortably long term. Pony types especially were bred for carrying weight on long hauls. But more recent studies are showing there’s a lot of factors and it’s not cut and dry how to determine what a comfortable weight limit is and it’s very horse dependent, rider dependent and tack dependent.

Still wondering where these recent studies are? And particularly ones arguing that 30% is fine long term.

 

[Nancykitt]

I don't want this to come out wrong - but surely most people weighing 18 stone + would struggle to be 'balanced'?

 

[tristars]

I'm not sure the strong bones means Arabs can carry more weight, the Arabs who developed the breed were pretty small and lightweight

 

[sbloom]

I don't want this to come out wrong - but surely most people weighing 18 stone + would struggle to be 'balanced'?

Not necessarily. There are some incredible bigger athletes out there, I saw a gymnast doing flick-flacks and all sorts who would have been a dress size 18 if she'd been about 5'5 (no idea what her height was).

 

[Nancykitt]

Fair enough - I said 'most' because I'm sure there's some exceptions. To be honest it's not something I know a lot about and I definitely don't want to offend anyone, but I do worry about how health issues associated with obesity might affect a person's ability to ride in a 'balanced' way.

I did work with a lady who was around 19 stone and had very serious mobility problems. I think she ended up having surgery.

Yet am I right in saying that, using the 30% idea as guidance, she would have been OK to ride my 450 kg pony had she been 'balanced'?

 

[sbloom]

Fair enough - I said 'most' because I'm sure there's some exceptions. To be honest it's not something I know a lot about and I definitely don't want to offend anyone, but I do worry about how health issues associated with obesity might affect a person's ability to ride in a 'balanced' way.

I did work with a lady who was around 19 stone and had very serious mobility problems. I think she ended up having surgery.

Yet am I right in saying that, using the 30% idea as guidance, she would have been OK to ride my 450 kg pony had she been 'balanced'?

IF if if....

We could load her onto the right part of the horse's back, with a neutral pelvis and her feet more or less underneath her...and she remained balanced front to back and side to side. I doubt she would fulfill this if she had mobility problems.

And IF...the horse is well muscled, in correct posture and showing no compensatory movement patterns, the saddle fits well and the horse isn't over or underweight...

A lot of ifs. 30% is for exceptional circumstances IMO as per my previous post.

 

[stormox]

The weight carried by a TB gelding in a Point-to-point is 12 stone I believe, and slightly less for mares. How does this compare with the 15/20% rule?

 

[Abacus]

The weight carried by a TB gelding in a Point-to-point is 12 stone I believe, and slightly less for mares. How does this compare with the 15/20% rule?

If the horse is 500kg, it is about 15%. But if the jockey is light they have to carry extra weight (as in my post above) which is different to weight on the rider.

 

[Exasperated]

I think if people learned how to not fall onto their horses backs and sore them many would learn plenty of horses are perfectly comfortable and capable of long term carrying up to 30%. 20% is fine and reasonable for a weaker/unbalanced rider but studies are showing a for horse with well fitted tack and a balanced rider can carry up to 30% comfortably long term. Pony types especially were bred for carrying weight on long hauls. But more recent studies are showing there’s a lot of factors and it’s not cut and dry how to determine what a comfortable weight limit is and it’s very horse dependent, rider dependent and tack dependent.

Well, that is true, there are some very heavy and inconsiderate riders, irrespective of their weights.
And pack animals carry prodigious weights.
But 30% sounds very high for a rider (who is much taller than a pack load, who moves about, hopefully in tune with the horse, but not necessarily), and then you must consider what the horse/ rider combo actually intend to do.
Walking, straight line, level and in balance is rare enough in riding, and very different to schooling or cross country, or just going up the gears.
Bottom line here is that an awful lot more people in the UK - would-be riders or not - need to lose weight, and so do an awful lot of privately owned horses.
And those individuals who are trim but heavy, need a sturdier horse. It’s hardly rocket science.

 

[Exasperated]

Not necessarily. There are some incredible bigger athletes out there, I saw a gymnast doing flick-flacks and all sorts who would have been a dress size 18 if she'd been about 5'5 (no idea what her height was).

That’s admirably agile, probably most unusual, but even she would likely have found her life and her gymnastics that bit easier we’re she not carrying 18 stones of weight (see Nancy’s query).
For an hypothetical anyone at 5’5”, that sounds like a lot of surplus stress on your heart and organs, never mind your horse.

 

[Exasperated]

Fair enough - I said 'most' because I'm sure there's some exceptions. To be honest it's not something I know a lot about and I definitely don't want to offend anyone, but I do worry about how health issues associated with obesity might affect a person's ability to ride in a 'balanced' way.

I did work with a lady who was around 19 stone and had very serious mobility problems. I think she ended up having surgery.

Yet am I right in saying that, using the 30% idea as guidance, she would have been OK to ride my 450 kg pony had she been 'balanced'?

Absolutely not, she is far too bloody heavy!
You do not need some generalised, % equation to tell you that, surely?
On the other hand, put her up behind the same pony in a balanced trap - no problem, unless you’re going up Everest.

 

[Birker2020]

Even at 20% I wasn't no where near too heavy for Bailey and certainly no where near for Lari. And that included tack!

 

[teapot]

I think it would help if people had a better understanding of what weight actually looks like.

I had a recent weigh in an outpatient clinic, and went nope that’s too much if I do ever decide to get back on a horse. Now, because of my height I can carry it better (fit on bigger horses too) and to the random eye probably look totally fine. Except the scales showed I had extremely little wiggle room for hat, boots and tack for most riding school weight limits.

People need educating so that weight becomes less of a taboo subject and more of a you’re involved in a sport that has live animals, welfare requirements, and biomechanics conversation.

 

[Tiddlypom]

There are so many people in denial about their excess weight and its effect on the horses that they ride .

Ride a more suitable horse, or stay out of the saddle and lose weight until you are at a good weight for the ones that you currently ride.

 

[Nancykitt]

Absolutely not, she is far too bloody heavy!
You do not need some generalised, % equation to tell you that, surely?
On the other hand, put her up behind the same pony in a balanced trap - no problem, unless you’re going up Everest.

Sorry, should have used an emoji - this was very much a 'tongue in cheek' statement!

There is absolutely no way I would have any 19 stone person sit on AJ, even when he was super-fit, no matter how agile they were!

 

[scats]

Whoever spouted the 30% is talking absolute and utter nonsense.
I have just worked out that means my mare should be capable of carrying 23stone! She’s a 15hh Welsh part bred!

That would be horse abuse.

I wouldn’t let anyone over 10.5stone sit on her.

 

[maya2008]

You know what would help more than anything, and save all the time weighing and measuring?

Being able to tell, as a judge, when a horse is struggling - for whatever reason - and eliminating them politely for lameness. That would help the horses that are not sound but with a light rider as well as those where the rider is overweight - because equines with an overweight (for them) rider DO show visible symptoms.
- tension
- signs of back pain (hollow back, associated movement issues)
- lack of suspension in gaits (which is the most immediately obvious)

Once you have seen an equine with artificially flat gaits due to carrying excess weight, it isn’t something easily missed again. More borderline weight issues present in a way that denotes pain but isn’t always clear what it is, but it does present - that is how they did the studies after all!

 

[skinnydipper]

Why wait until the horse is showing visible signs of pain? Why wouldn't you try to prevent that happening?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Why wait until the horse is showing visible signs of pain? Why wouldn't you try to prevent that happening?

Very true, but if judges were both able to recognise signs of discomfort and were more empowered to throw such combinations out of the ring that would help.

Plus robust stewarding to stop them ever getting to the ring in the first place.

 

[VictoriaSponge]

You know what would help more than anything, and save all the time weighing and measuring?

Being able to tell, as a judge, when a horse is struggling - for whatever reason - and eliminating them politely for lameness. That would help the horses that are not sound but with a light rider as well as those where the rider is overweight - because equines with an overweight (for them) rider DO show visible symptoms.
- tension
- signs of back pain (hollow back, associated movement issues)
- lack of suspension in gaits (which is the most immediately obvious)

Once you have seen an equine with artificially flat gaits due to carrying excess weight, it isn’t something easily missed again. More borderline weight issues present in a way that denotes pain but isn’t always clear what it is, but it does present - that is how they did the studies after all!

I think that this is a great idea in principle, but sadly far too many riders are just either in denial or completely ignorant of the damage they are causing, and would not respect the opinions.

I can’t speak from a dressage perspective, but in my experience in showing (where imo rider weight issues are most prevalent) as a both a judge and competitor, there isn’t the respect or responsibility from riders for this to work. I’ve seen or the competitor to answer “are you a vet?” to a judge when asked to leave a ring over an obviously lame horse and to lodge a complaint with the secretary.

I fear that if the conversation was “your horse is lame because you are too heavy” the situation would just get nasty. Which is of course incredibly sad, but why I do think that a number has to come from somewhere to set an unavoidable weight limit that is made clear before entry and checked before mounting.

 

[maya2008]

Very true, but if judges were both able to recognise signs of discomfort and were more empowered to throw such combinations out of the ring that would help.

Plus robust stewarding to stop them ever getting to the ring in the first place.

Why wait until the horse is showing visible signs of pain? Why wouldn't you try to prevent that happening?

The original discussion was about competition. As in, they are weighing people to check they are within weight limits at competitions.

So…if they didn’t need to weigh them to determine which horses were uncomfortable that would both be quicker and benefit ALL horses, no matter the size of rider.

Equally, if judges were hot on spotting this stuff, people would take more care to make sure the horse wasn’t struggling in any way.It would raise awareness of what a struggling horse looks like and so on.

The risk of a blanket weight limit is that a young horse, and old horse, a hypermobile horse, one with a heart murmur etc etc cannot carry what a healthy horse in its prime can. Neither can an undermuscled (but fat) horse.

Maybe a vet does need to be present, who knows?

 

[Marshpiper]

Very true, but if judges were both able to recognise signs of discomfort and were more empowered to throw such combinations out of the ring that would help.

Plus robust stewarding to stop them ever getting to the ring in the first place.

I think there is a society being used by more and more shows who are working extremely hard to do this…and not just weight (horse and or rider) but excess lunging or other welfare concerns…

 

[sbloom]

This may have been cited already but this group https://lily-tuatara-848d.squarespace.com should be making a difference, I know one of the stewards and she's going to be an absolute asset to them.

Edited to add didn't spot @Marshpiper's post

 

[Marshpiper]

This may have been cited already but this group https://lily-tuatara-848d.squarespace.com should be making a difference, I know one of the stewards and she's going to be an absolute asset to them.

Edited to add didn't spot @Marshpiper's post

The one I was referring to is called…The Equine Welfare Stewarding Alliance…..The founders have been working hard to improve welfare at ALL shows….and slowly but surely are making a difference….
Is this the organisation you are referring to…the more the merrier…