Riding lessons: how do kids progress beyond novice?

[bonnysmum]

Hi all. Firstly, the background to my question is having the physio tell me my horse has lost some condition on the topline and to be sure that when she is used for lessons by the riding school she's being ridden correctly by experienced riders.

All good & understood. But my daughter rides her three or four times a week and doesn't yet come into that category. She's cantering, jumping 50cm and working on developing an independent seat, very much still a novice. So how should I expect things to progress from here? At what age do instructors get into the theory & teach young riders all the things I keep reading about (riding in an outline, "on the bit" etc.)? Is there any kind of standard progression that I should expect her to follow? Different instructors seem to tell her different things. And is she damaging her pony if she isn't yet capable of riding her "correctly" at all times?

I think I might be a little paranoid, but as someone used to the more rigid progression of musical graded exams I'm finding the more nebulous nature of riding lessons quite tricky to understand!

 

[oldie48]

Gosh that's a really tricky question to answer but basically IMHO most children's ponies don't have a proper topline unless they are schooled by a pro/experienced rider or the child has the skill and/or desire to ditch the immediate "fun" and concentrate on the basics. My daughter was 11 when the penny dropped but we still needed a pro rider to set her pony up for her so she could start to feel what was right etc. She couldn't have done it for herself but she had a youngster who needed to be taught the correct way of going. TBH I don't think it's about age, I know lots of adults who have ridden all their life who don't ride their horses so they develop the correct musculature. I'm sure lots of more knowledgeable people will have a view so I am just kicking this off but fwiw most RSs don't teach people to ride correctly and their horses are not schooled to do that either

 

[Skib]

You may be appalled to know that neither I, my husband nor out grand daughter ever had lessons on those things. When I went elsewhere for some dressage lessons and enquired about these gaps in my education I was told not to worry. I had apparently been taught to warm up with exercises and to ride to get maximum movement in the back legs of the horse. And everything followed from that.
I dont think anyone ever mentioned on the bit or outline. My current ride did lean on the reins and I guess she was on the forehand but I bought her new leather reins which slip through one's fingers if she tries to lean on them, and she then stopped. Stopped the leaning, I mean.

There is a big difference between learning music and learning to ride. Riding is a relationsip and two way communication between a human and an animal with learning capabilties and a memory. A musical instrument is very different, an inanimate and constant.

 

[bonnysmum]

Gosh that's a really tricky question to answer but basically IMHO most children's ponies don't have a proper topline unless they are schooled by a pro/experienced rider or the child has the skill and/or desire to ditch the immediate "fun" and concentrate on the basics. My daughter was 11 when the penny dropped but we still needed a pro rider to set her pony up for her so she could start to feel what was right etc. She couldn't have done it for herself but she had a youngster who needed to be taught the correct way of going. TBH I don't think it's about age, I know lots of adults who have ridden all their life who don't ride their horses so they develop the correct musculature. I'm sure lots of more knowledgeable people will have a view so I am just kicking this off but fwiw most RSs don't teach people to ride correctly and their horses are not schooled to do that either

Interesting reply, thanks. My understanding is that this pony has been well schooled by experienced riders and is very fit. She was sold to us by the RS as she's getting on a bit and possibly getting a bit sour in the school. They thought she'd benefit from a one to one relationship and she definitely seems to be bonding with my daughter so I think that was the right move. She's a lovely pony. But they sold her to us knowing my daughter is a novice, albeit a lovely kind & quiet rider. So I'm thinking now well DOES the pony need the more advanced riders and if so why sell her to a novice? Is the topline condition a problem for the pony or is it more about keeping her fit for my daughter as she progresses?

I must say I am feeling my ignorance as I try to get to grips with all of this!

 

[bonnysmum]

There is a big difference between learning music and learning to ride. Riding is a relationsip and two way communication between a human and an animal with learning capabilties and a memory. A musical instrument is very different, an inanimate and constant.

Oh gosh yes, I totally appreciate that. But it does make it very hard to assess level & progression doesn't it? There seem to be two different paths. One is riding different horses at different times suitable for age & stage. If my daughter was doing that then undoubtedly she could be competing at 50/60cm SJ with a pony that's totally steady & reliable. But as things stand she has her own pony that's a bit more of a "character", picks up on any stress on my daughter's part, overjumps & bolts. So she needs to put in the time to build that relationship & learn how to ride her, but in the meantime friends with "easier" horses seem to make faster progress without the setbacks of confidence draining falls etc. In the long run I suspect my daughter will grow more as a rider even if progress right now feels slower to her. It's a totally new mindset that's for sure.

ETA we love this pony to bits and wouldn't have her any other way!

 

[Lipglosspukka]

I would dismiss the comment.

Let your daughter have fun and enjoy the pony. If she wants to start riding 'properly' as she progresses then she can make that decision when she is ready.

 

[JackFrost]

Your question is a wise one. I am an adult but I have ridden a LOT of riding school ponies. I am struggling to think of a single one that naturally worked correctly. I am happy if they do not nap or bolt and are not too dead to the leg or hard in the mouth.
I am wondering what horsey universe the physio inhabits. In theory, yes it would be great to have all ponies ridden correctly by good riders, but rarely does that happen. You can usually tell when a pony has been ridden well at some point in its life, they do not forget.

If he pony has particular physical issues, ask the physio to explain these and say what would help or hinder the pony in its work. Beyond that, so long as pony is not being ridden roughly, the exercise should do it good. Make sure your daughter knows to warm the pony up and to let the pony relax at the end of the lesson with some quiet walking and stretching.
If your daughter is doing a lot of faster work and jumping, bear in mind they can get sour just from having too much asked of them, or not enough variety or chance to relax with their rider.

 

[bonnysmum]

I would dismiss the comment.

Let your daughter have fun and enjoy the pony. If she wants to start riding 'properly' as she progresses then she can make that decision when she is ready.

I'd be totally relaxed with that if I was sure it wouldn't harm the pony and if I hadn't been told the same by the person who used to school her regularly! Really hard to know what to believe. Personally I just want the pony to be happy and my daughter to enjoy her. My daughter's all about the horse care and the relationship. She enjoys riding but she's no adrenaline junkie, however she does want to keep up with her friends who perhaps are!

 

[NR88]

It is excellent that you have a physio as part of your team. It takes a village after all!

Horses change shape for many reasons but having been made aware by your physio that the pony has already changed I would suggest being vigilant with the fit of your saddle. Uncomfort caused by a saddle can create physical and mental issues with horses. The physio may be able to help by checking for you but it might be worth engaging with your saddle fitter.

As to a more structured way of measuring progress has your daughter reconsidered joining the Pony Club? Children can work towards their Pony Club badges in stable management and riding.

Pony Club will offer your daughter a range of activities to try from games to tetrathalon as well as flatwork and jumping so a lot of fun as well as learning.

Pony Club may also help you to get your eye in, so to speak, as you will see a range of ages, skills and abilities.

 

[coblets]

I don’t think any child needs to be learning about getting a horse in an outline. The key thing should be having fun (in a way that’s safe for the horse). Besides it’s very easy for young people to fall into the trap of ‘horse must have round neck’, leading to see-sawing rather than any actual improvement as a rider. Better to be getting some hill work in our hacking, maybe having a look at some fun schooling exercises (there’s lots of games you can play with transitions) to get horse sitting back on their bum a bit more.

 

[bonnysmum]

It is excellent that you have a physio as part of your team. It takes a village after all!

Horses change shape for many reasons but having been made aware by your physio that the pony has already changed I would suggest being vigilant with the fit of your saddle. Uncomfort caused by a saddle can create physical and mental issues with horses. The physio may be able to help by checking for you but it might be worth engaging with your saddle fitter.

As to a more structured way of measuring progress has your daughter reconsidered joining the Pony Club? Children can work towards their Pony Club badges in stable management and riding.

Pony Club will offer your daughter a range of activities to try from games to tetrathalon as well as flatwork and jumping so a lot of fun as well as learning.

Pony Club may also help you to get your eye in, so to speak, as you will see a range of ages, skills and abilities.

I can't take credit for the physio. I was told she was due to be seen so that's what I did! I have a half pad with shims that I was advised to get because she is prone to changing shape, but I agree that a saddle fitter would probably be wise. She doesn't have the same saddle though when used for lessons so I'd want to be sure the RS is also getting theirs checked.

Daughter has joined pony club and I think I'd better ask the instructor there about the badges & tests and how that works, because the parts of the sessions I've seen just seem to consist of the group trotting & cantering around the school. She doesn't go each time as she's still not that keen on the whole group thing.

 

[NR88]

I can't take credit for the physio. I was told she was due to be seen so that's what I did! I have a half pad with shims that I was advised to get because she is prone to changing shape, but I agree that a saddle fitter would probably be wise. She doesn't have the same saddle though when used for lessons so I'd want to be sure the RS is also getting theirs checked.

Daughter has joined pony club and I think I'd better ask the instructor there about the badges & tests and how that works, because the parts of the sessions I've seen just seem to consist of the group trotting & cantering around the school. She doesn't go each time as she's still not that keen on the whole group thing.

If the pony has two saddles then have both of them for the fitters visit. I'd confirm a price for checking two saddles with the fitter and then speak to the RS about who covers the cost for their saddle; not only for the check but also if any adjustments or reflocking is required.

A fitter may charge per saddle checked but also the RS may have other saddles available to be used on your pony if the current one doesn't fit. So it would be worth discussing with RS manager and fitter prior to the appointment.

It is part of the certification process that each RS horse should have well fitting tack so the RS should want to engage with you about this.

As your pony will have various riders in lessons it is very important that the "working" saddle fits well.

It has been a long, long time since I was in pony club so I can't help about the badges. I remember that I used to get a list of upcoming lessons and training days in the mail (post). Then I ticked the boxes and returned the form with a cheque. Instructors are often brought in to teach the riding lessons but have no involvement with the badges. If the website doesnt offer any information speak to the branch DC

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Ponies/horses move correctly if they are ridden correctly. This means the rider has to be in a good position which allows the pony to move correctly. You really do not need to worry about whether the horse is 'on the bit' (horrible expression) or not but whether your daughter's seat/leg/position is effective or not. That is what will develop/maintain topline. Your daughter is most likely to develop a good seat and ride effectively if she is having fun on a variety of ponies in all paces over varied terrain. Progression in developing riding skills is far from linear and every horse presents a new challenge.

 

[bonnysmum]

Your daughter is most likely to develop a good seat and ride effectively if she is having fun on a variety of ponies in all paces over varied terrain.

Now here's the thing. Should I expect every lesson to be on her pony, that she only competes on her pony etc? Or would it be acceptable to ask for lessons on other ponies from time to time? eg my daughter has temporarily lost her confidence jumping on her own pony after a couple of speed induced falls and has been asking me if she could compete next time on another pony, and I really didn't know if it would be a total faux pas to ask that? My thinking is it might be good for her to work on her seat/position for a while with a slightly steadier horse?

 

[Peglo]

Bonnysmum, I am 30 but can you be my mum? Your interest and dedication to your daughters hobby is so lovely!

I don’t have any useful advice or knowledge but I hope the riding school will be happy to help out. Hopefully your daughter and her pony can find some kind of activities that they can have more fun with and a shot on another pony will help get her jumping confidence back.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Older pony losing top line = cushings test?

 

[ycbm]

I was going to ask that. How old is the pony?, because age itself, and diseases like Cushings or the beginning of arthritis, can result in loss of top line, as can a reduction in levels of work.

Rushing fences, particularly in kids ponies, often seems to be the first sign of the pony developing arthritic hocks, and going schooling sour would be another. In your shoes I wouldn't rule out getting the pony looked over by a vet. Was she vetted when you bought her?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Won't hurt for a vet to give her the once over. Ponies are very stoic and if she's been used in a RS for any amount of time, she will be used to compensating for many riders-so there may not be anything wrong as such, just a lot to undo if that makes sense. I know that the perception is that ponies ridden by kids couldn't possibly be detrimental to the pony but that's wrong in my experience of equine body work.

I was never taught to get a pony 'on the bit' but I did end up with a dressage judge as my instructor at 11 who had my Exmoor and I doing lateral work n a lovely shape with me being completely unaware of how we got there! So your daughter's riding plus a good instructor who knows their stuff would get there but its more important that the pony is ok and your daughter is enjoying her.

And it would be a good thing to jump another pony.

for some perspective, I went to a yard in Portugal about 20 years ago now, for a riding holiday on some lusitano schoolmasters. I dont pretend to be a great rider but had at this point, been riding for 25years, worked with horses bla bla. Had a lovely time doing moves I never dreamed I would do, canter pirouettes, canter half pass, sliding stops etc. I asked one of the instructors what they had on the following week; 'reschooling the horses you've been riding this week' he replied.

Schooling horses is ongoing, its never finished really, particularly for us mere mortals. Its constant, so if pony is being used in the RS still, in schooling terms then its even harder than if she was ridden consistently by a very experienced rider. Try not to worry about that, get pony and saddle checked out too.

 

[misst]

Our first pony years ago always was on her forehand and came from a riding school. She was 12 when we got her and physically fine but had never been ridden "correctly". She gave us years of pleasure and fun and could be nappy and tricky at times - but she taught my daughter balance, perseverance and an independent seat which she then used with her first horse to learn to ride "correctly" some years later. In the meantime she did dressage jumping and cross country and hacking with this mare and had her until she was PTS aged 27.

The important thing at the start is safety and fun and confidence building. Later she can apply what she has learned to more advanced riding.
The children I remember at pony club were all learning different things at different times depending on their ability and bravery and the ponys ability.
Provided both are safe and comfortable I would not worry.

 

[Red-1]

If Charlotte or Carl rode my horse, he would have better top line. But, they don't. I do. I do OK, but others would do better. Do I stress about that? Nope, not as long as we both have a good time.

I would say that as long as the tack fits, the feed is appropriate, the pony has turnout, the pony is hacked as well as schooled, the riding school riders are not too heavy and are appropriate, then I would let your daughter simply have fun.

I wonder if, now the pony is sold, the RS is allowing more novice riders to ride? Even if that is unconscious on their part?

I am interested as to why two saddles are involved? They would both need fitting, and the rider weight has to be taken into consideration.

If the pony was schooled by experienced riders before, has that continued?

The riding school sold because the pony was 'slowing down' which could be a euphemism for being stiff. Being stiff could affect his top line.

My first pony never had any top line. I wouldn't have known how. I was 15 before I learned that stuff. We hacked loads, did local shows, pretended to be cowboys and generally had fun. That pony would have been better if he was schooled by Carl Hester or Charlotte Dujardin too, but that was not to be so. LOL. He did last until he was 35 though!

I would have the pony checked by a vet and saddler (both saddles) and take it from there. If the pony is a bit stiff, it may be better to back off from so many riding school lessons. Rushing with a novice, as another poster has said, could be through being stiff. Yes, I would have lessons on other horses in that case.

 

[Lois Lame]

Now here's the thing. Should I expect every lesson to be on her pony, that she only competes on her pony etc? Or would it be acceptable to ask for lessons on other ponies from time to time? eg my daughter has temporarily lost her confidence jumping on her own pony after a couple of speed induced falls and has been asking me if she could compete next time on another pony, and I really didn't know if it would be a total faux pas to ask that? My thinking is it might be good for her to work on her seat/position for a while with a slightly steadier horse?

This would be a great idea.

 

[bonnysmum]

Just to say thanks for all the really helpful replies, lots to read and digest. I'll respond more fully later on.

 

[Skib]

overjumps & bolts.

Re-reading this thread, I picked up on the word "bolt".
My forum experience is that adults have found it hard to recover confidence if they have been bolted with.
For years I rode a zesty RS Connie who regularly ran away with me but it wasnt an actually dangerous bolt as she did it only at places where she was used to cantering and where there were places on the track which she regarded as destination and where she would stop. The staff referred to it as my John Wayne act. Eventually I learned to control it, so it did me no harm. But as a novice rider, it did scare me a little.
Our RI remarked to me how hard it was to teach students to handle things like spooks and running away. But if it does happen, you may perhaps be able top teach your child how to react, to control the pony and minimise the risk.

 

[bonnysmum]

I'm trying to be careful what I say here just in case anyone I know is reading this and recognises the situation, but I can pick up on a few points. Lolz at @Peglo - it's my new hobby too, and I'm the type who needs to throw myself into things and understand everything, I can't just bob along for the ride (so to speak!). But also, being with horses has had such a transforming influence on my daughter that I see it as a really important part of her life that I need to take seriously.

Pony is rising 15, so not old exactly but not a spring chicken either. I seriously hope we're not talking about anything like the early signs of cushings, certainly the physio didn't seem to think this is anything other than wear & tear and a slight loss of condition associated with a reduction in work.

Two saddles, I think, is because I bought a second hand saddle for my daughter that's quite wee because she's quite slender, so it doesn't fit older/bigger riders hence they have continued using their own despite the normal working livery terms being that they would use ours. I'm quite glad about that in the way as it reduces the wear & tear on our tack, but obviously might not be ideal for the pony with the switching around. It's a nice saddle we have though, wouldn't want to change it unnecessarily, but I'll get the fit checked again.

As must be clear to everyone here, I don't have a lot of experience in the horse world but the RS seems to be well thought of and I'm as confident as I can be that they sold me a sound pony. There are plenty of professionals associated with the place who would be seriously risking their reputation if they knew something about this pony and never warned me before I bought her. Hence I didn't have her vetted before buying because of the risk of invalidating insurance for anything hitherto unknown that the vetting picked up. She was under the value where I needed a vetting to insure her. I hope that was the right decision but it's done now. I did know before I bought that this pony can be a bit of pocket rocket, but she has no other vices to speak of and is generally a really lovely natured beast that I can trust.

Since I agreed to buy the pony I've felt under a fair amount of pressure to keep her in regular work and I'm going along with it because I'm taking it in good faith that it's for her benefit. The physio did agree that regular flatwork sessions with experienced riders is a good thing for her fitness so I think it's probably sound advice. It creates some tension with my daughter who really doesn't like the idea that other people are still riding her, but she also wants what's in the pony's best interests so has come to terms with it. I am assured that since we bought her she's no longer doing the random beginner-type lessons and that she is only now used for regular riders. I feel awkward about being any more picky than that, because obviously my daughter is a novice herself and it would make me a hypocrite!

The fact so many professionals work with the ponies at this RS also makes it hard for me to sort through the advice I'm getting. They're serious about their schooling & competing and demand high standards from their horses. So that leads me back to the concerns about whether the fact my daughter isn't yet at that level is a problem for the horse or whether it's simply about varying expectations and people who have put a lot of time & effort into her fitness not wanting to see it go to waste, so to speak. From my daughter's perspective, she just wants a pony to look after and ride (safely!). She wants to compete as well to feel a part of things, but it's not her main motivation. The bond between her and the pony is growing by the day - pony follows her around like a pet dog - so from that perspective it's a big success. That's a rambling essay, but does that all make sense? I guess there are no easy answers to any of this!

 

[ycbm]

Pony is rising 15, so not old exactly but not a spring chicken either. I seriously hope we're not talking about anything like the early signs of cushings

15 is not early for a Cushings diagnosis, I would get the pony tested and the vet to check out her hocks while they are there.


Reading the rest of your post, depending on her age, I'm just beginning to feel sorry for your daughter that she isn't being allowed by any of the adults in this scenario just to have fun with her first pony. I mean no criticism of you by that, you are taking the advice you are being given. I just wonder whether you should all move to a lower key place for a while.
.

 

[Tarragon]

Even if the pony is positive for Cushings, it is now a very manageable condition.

 

[bonnysmum]

15 is not early for a Cushings diagnosis, I would get the pony tested and the vet to check out her hocks while they are there.


Reading the rest of your post, depending on her age, I'm just beginning to feel sorry for your daughter that she isn't being allowed by any of the adults in this scenario just to have fun with her first pony. I mean no criticism of you by that, you are taking the advice you are being given. I just wonder whether you should all move to a lower key place for a while.
.

Got to get back to my day job now, but yes @ycbm , you have hit the nail on the head there in respect of why I'm on here needling you all for endless advice. I only wish I could upload the video I took last week of pony & daughter, it was so lovely and what I think they BOTH need. As much as you are concerned for my daughter (she's nearly 12), I also feel the same about her pony actually. She's been working, either being shown or in a RS, for her whole life to date. I'm constantly told how much she loves her work, but does she really? Does she care if she's being ridden in an outline or if her jumping style goes off the boil? Maybe all she really wants is to bond with her new young person and have some fun for a change?

 

[ycbm]

One thing that's certain is that you're a good mum and a good horse owner to be asking these questions
.

 

[coblets]

Got to get back to my day job now, but yes @ycbmI'm constantly told how much she loves her work, but does she really? Does she care if she's being ridden in an outline or if her jumping style goes off the boil? Maybe all she really wants is to bond with her new young person and have some fun for a change?

As someone that's worked at a various riding schools, 95% of the horses don't like their work. I'd say they tolerate it at best. Your little mare is probably very grateful to have the continuum of being a privately owned horse, and I'm sure she loves following your daughter around and seeing what she's up to. RS horses don't often get those little moments to interact with people in a no-expectations-or-pressure way. All the RS horses I've known have been much happier in private homes, even if they were being ridden less often/properly.

And, while I'm living vicariously through your daughter as someone who couldn't have even dreamed of owning their own horse as a child, let me just say that your daughter deserves to have no pressure on her whatsoever. She should be going out for bareback hacks, or giving her pony lots of kisses in the field, or teaching her how to 'hug', and doing all the other things that horse-less children can't do.

The one thing I will say though is that, as much as there's no need for jumping 'correctly', I'd be making sure that her rushing isn't a sign of pain or stress.

 

[paddy555]

Got to get back to my day job now, but yes @ycbm , you have hit the nail on the head there in respect of why I'm on here needling you all for endless advice. I only wish I could upload the video I took last week of pony & daughter, it was so lovely and what I think they BOTH need. As much as you are concerned for my daughter (she's nearly 12), I also feel the same about her pony actually. She's been working, either being shown or in a RS, for her whole life to date. I'm constantly told how much she loves her work, but does she really? Does she care if she's being ridden in an outline or if her jumping style goes off the boil? Maybe all she really wants is to bond with her new young person and have some fun for a change?

I think you need to get her tested for cushings, now is a good time to test. Loss of top line is a classic symptom. With a 14/15 yo pony I would be testing annually anyway. I would also, as advised, get the vet to check out the hocks and do a quick check of everything else. .

Having read through this thread I don't really understand it. Especially the last 4 lines of your post above. I don't see why other people have to ride your pony. If I was a child I would want my pony to myself and would be very upset if others rode it. I can see a point in paying or even just letting an experienced rider on board occasionally just to keep the pony tuned up but not for use in lessons. Why on earth are other riders who are bigger using a different saddle. Your saddle will have been fitted to your pony. Of course the RS say she loves her work. She is providing an income for them, she is another horse to use for clients. Why does she have to be fit? she is your daughter's pet and hobby. As long as she gets plenty of movement, out in a field will do, as well as some ridden she will be fine and will get fitter as your daughter progresses and wants to do more


I have never found equines love their work so much in a RS nor being ridden in an outline or jumping. What they really love is being a horse, being out in fields with others and eating.
Would it not be possible for you to simply pay the full livery rate, get rid of working livery and other riders and just let your daughter look after, bond with and ride her own pony. Let her ride as she wants and how she wants and have fun. As she makes progress at her own pace she will do more competitions or PC or rides out. What really matters is that she just enjoys her pony be it ridden in an outline or not.

I very much agree with the final para of post 25.

BTW I did rigid music exams all the way up to grade 8. Constantly making more progress, more pushing, always trying to achieve the next grade. I was successful but as a result I didn't like music and playing an instrument and still don't. No fun and no pleasure whatsoever. In post 24 you say you like to throw yourself into things. With horse riding on your own pony it is the total opposite end of the scale to rigid music exams. It is pleasure, fun. If your daughter has had a good time and enjoyed playing with her pony that is success not whether she has held the pony in an outline or how high she has jumped.