Riding under Sedaline?!

[ellie_e]

So who does/has/known someone to ride when horse has been given some Sedaline?
Horse in question has bags of scope and ability, performs well at home, schooling, training lessons but will not compete. ( Should really be at Newcomers level with ease) A few people in the past have recommended I try giving a small amount of Sedaline to compete, just to get him in the habit of going in the ring and doing a job, rather than rearing, at the time I was against it, and now 2 1/2yrs down the line, still in the same situation. Hes medically now fine, (has shockwave for PSD) has been to boot camp with a trainer, I use a 'normal' calmer daily.
I had a lesson on Saturday, with an excellent instructor, horse jumped the best he has ever, flying 1.15 no issues, except rears and spins at anything he fancies really. Trainer suggested using some just to get him in the ring, and do some smaller classes ie 80-90cm so WELL within his capabilities and break the cycle of napping.
Now I don’t need telling about dope testing rules etc, I’m well aware that you shouldn’t ride on it, but I’m looking for those with experiences with it.

 

[Thistle]

Sedalin/ACP affects the heart rate. Seriously why would you want to compete a horse whose heart is not working normally?

I know it's often used when returning to riden work after box rest but that is low level walking for a short time, not strenous competition.

Please don't do it!

 

[Firewell]

As above!
You are dulling his reactions and asking for an accident imo.

 

[hayinamanger]

Suicide

 

[laura-c]

equine america super kalm, comes in a tube like a wormer... pricey but may be worth a shot

 

[YasandCrystal]

Could you not get a really experienced trainer to jump him at a show? However much you try and react differently your horse will sense you are anticipating the stressy behaviour at a show, so you are in a catch 22 at the moment. It's amazing what perhaps can be achieved just by someone fresh with no history with the horse. That would be my next move.

I have only ever ridden one horse under the influence of ACPs - unbeknown to me and that exploded without warning. I wouldn't do it.

 

[MissTyc]

Having seen a horse "wake up" from sedaline, thankfully not under saddle, there is no way I would knowingly sit on one!

There are, however, many products on the market that advertise calming, stress-relief, etc ...

 

[JillA]

Could you not just restart him with baby clear rounds to get him enjoying being in the ring? Because that is the problem IMHO - too much pressure once he gets near that competition ring. And, no, I would never ride a horse who is sedated with Sedalin or anything else, much less jump them, for the reasons above (And it is against the law to travel a sedated horse too, in case you were going to sedate him at home)

 

[ellie_e]

Could you not just restart him with baby clear rounds to get him enjoying being in the ring? Because that is the problem IMHO - too much pressure once he gets near that competition ring. And, no, I would never ride a horse who is sedated with Sedalin or anything else, much less jump them, for the reasons above (And it is against the law to travel a sedated horse too, in case you were going to sedate him at home)

Tried this, trouble is he wont go in the ring.... Or will on his own terms, ie backwards, or vertical. Warms up fine, then as soon as he hits the arena he changes, visibly, peruse lip, high head, tense etc. On the few occasions I can manage to get him over first few fences he will sometimes settle, but charges at everything.
Hes been to a pro, on was foot perfect while in training. I dont know anyone locally who would want to sit on him to jump locally, and cash isnt there to send away again as moving house. Plus I dont feel its me, he has melt down just walking down the lane from yard by himself!!

 

[ellie_e]

I have only ever ridden one horse under the influence of ACPs - unbeknown to me and that exploded without warning. I wouldn't do it.

He explodes without warning with out drugs!!
Tried Equine America, and pretty much everything else. Hes currently on Equifeast which makes a huge difference, but not enough for the competing

 

[HeresHoping]

Please don't go down this route. I will tell you why.

My TB could not be shod behind without Sedalin. Purportedly due to a nasty farrier experience but we know otherwise now.

On 22nd October last year I applied sedalin as prescribed by my vet. This was for me the third time I had given him the stuff. Previous occasions he was absolutely fine. 45 minutes go past, start the shoeing. Horse all over the place, refusing to have his back feet done at all. The sedalin had obviously made him relax muscle-wise but had not quite had the desired effect on his brain. Called vet, who said my dose was hardly adequate, to go to the next level and wait 15 minutes. Bear in mind this was a minuscule amount in the first place - enough to usually make him stand - the next level was only going to take him up to the recommended dose for 500kg. It did nothing. We gave up shoeing because just would not have his back feet done. 1/2 an hour later, my boy was knocked for 6, standing like a giraffe at a watering hole with his nose on the floor. It didn't wear off for the next 6 hours.

I never rode him properly again. That pratting around with loose muscles resulted in multiple SI ligaments being torn to shreds and aggravating what we subsequently found out to be a poorly-healed fracture of the ilial shaft. He was put down on March 08 this year.

Please go and talk to the people at Equifeast about L-Tryptophan - it's magic stuff!

 

[ellie_e]

Please don't go down this route. I will tell you why.

My TB could not be shod behind without Sedalin. Purportedly due to a nasty farrier experience but we know otherwise now.

On 22nd October last year I applied sedalin as prescribed by my vet. This was for me the third time I had given him the stuff. Previous occasions he was absolutely fine. 45 minutes go past, start the shoeing. Horse all over the place, refusing to have his back feet done at all. The sedalin had obviously made him relax muscle-wise but had not quite had the desired effect on his brain. Called vet, who said my dose was hardly adequate, to go to the next level and wait 15 minutes. Bear in mind this was a minuscule amount in the first place - enough to usually make him stand - the next level was only going to take him up to the recommended dose for 500kg. It did nothing. We gave up shoeing because just would not have his back feet done. 1/2 an hour later, my boy was knocked for 6, standing like a giraffe at a watering hole with his nose on the floor. It didn't wear off for the next 6 hours.

I never rode him properly again. That pratting around with loose muscles resulted in multiple SI ligaments being torn to shreds and aggravating what we subsequently found out to be a poorly-healed fracture of the ilial shaft. He was put down on March 08 this year.

Please go and talk to the people at Equifeast about L-Tryptophan - it's magic stuff!

We've got 3pots of L-Tryptohan, worked okish, first 2/3times, now doesnt have any effect!
Sorry to hear about your horse being PTS, but the sedaline wouldnt of caused that would it?

 

[YasandCrystal]

OP have you thought of trying an AC? Please don't shoot me down - it worked with my horse to understand what was going on with him.

 

[twiggy2]

have you done group training sessions?

 

[JillA]

Ring shy is what he is - research this as a problem and you may well find some answers. If he has been professionally jumped, they don't take prisoners and if he couldn't hack it he would have been pushed beyond what he was comfortable with. All he is doing now is saying "NO!! I HATE it!!". In your shoes I would either accept that he has been totally ruined in the past and that he is no longer a jumper (what is he like cross country BTW??) or get help from an experienced alternative horseperson such as one of the Intelligent Horsemanships Recommended Associates.

 

[ellie_e]

OP have you thought of trying an AC? Please don't shoot me down - it worked with my horse to understand what was going on with him.

AC???

 

[ellie_e]

have you done group training sessions?

Yup, perfectly fine in a group session. Can bit abit silly at times he is quirky, but happy in this environment

 

[BeckyD]

I wouldn't do it. When my (previous) horse was returning from injury and had to be exercised gently whilst on box rest, he was a total nightmare. Very dangerous without warning. He'd be all calm and lovely then suddenly flip out when he didn't want to do something. We tried all calmers and in the end the vet said to exercise him on ACP (sedalin didn't work on this horse but ACP is the tablet form of it and that did work). The ACP didn't really help - it kept him even calmer during his "nice" moments and he really was a pleasure during that time, but then ask him something different (like changing the rein or going past a scary bit of arena) and he would flip out of the ACP (the vet said if the adrenaline level got high enough it would override the ACP??? - or something along those lines, I can't really remember) and have a meltdown. The situation was worse on the sedalin than the ACP. He was on 10 tablets of ACP, twice a day.

I suspect if you tried it with your horse (leaving aside the danger of jumping of it), I suspect you might find the same thing - i.e. horse will warm up lovely (if somewhat delayed reactions/ a bit dopey) and then come "going in the ring" time, it will behave just as it did before, but without the speed of reactions to be able to safely come down from a rear. I think it could get very dangerous indeed and I would say that if a professional is recommending this course of action, then they must have experience of it working, and thsu they may well be willing to ride the horse under those circumstances.

I would also consider the situation as regards insurance (if something bad happened).

 

[Twiglet]

To me, it sounds like a horse who should be retired from competition, rather than competed under sedation. No matter how talented he is or how much potential he has - he's trying to tell you something and it's not that he's a competition horse.
Getting him round a course under sedation doesn't solve the issue, it might (if you're lucky), get you round on the day, but what does it achieve?

 

[ellie_e]

Ring shy is what he is - research this as a problem and you may well find some answers. If he has been professionally jumped, they don't take prisoners and if he couldn't hack it he would have been pushed beyond what he was comfortable with. All he is doing now is saying "NO!! I HATE it!!". In your shoes I would either accept that he has been totally ruined in the past and that he is no longer a jumper (what is he like cross country BTW??) or get help from an experienced alternative horseperson such as one of the Intelligent Horsemanships Recommended Associates.

He is ring shy yes. He was imported as a 4-5yr old. Ive had him 2 1/2yrs and have never been able to do much with him so doesn’t have a record as such. He’s now 9, dressage he was ok, a little spooky, but would get round a test, now he’s also decided that he hates that, and rears- we've been eliminated from our last 2 DR comps for this! One judge said he was dangerous!! Which I thought was rather dramatic!
Ive only ever XC schooled with others, I’m not really a fan of XC but on the occasions we've done it, he’s got better and better- first attempted was awful rearing etc, now happily jumps.

Intelligent Horsemanships Recommended Associates? Such as Perelli?? I cant say I'm a beliver in all that

 

[Patterdale]

Would you down a bottle of wine then run round an assault course safely?

Ludicrous idea. Go back to the beginning and cure his fear of the ring.

 

[ellie_e]

Ludicrous idea. Go back to the beginning and cure his fear of the ring.

How would you do this? As feel have tried most routes.
This is not a decison im taking lightly, and feel its a last resort.

 

[YasandCrystal]

He is ring shy yes. He was imported as a 4-5yr old. Ive had him 2 1/2yrs and have never been able to do much with him so doesn’t have a record as such. He’s now 9, dressage he was ok, a little spooky, but would get round a test, now he’s also decided that he hates that, and rears- we've been eliminated from our last 2 DR comps for this! One judge said he was dangerous!! Which I thought was rather dramatic!
Ive only ever XC schooled with others, I’m not really a fan of XC but on the occasions we've done it, he’s got better and better- first attempted was awful rearing etc, now happily jumps.

Intelligent Horsemanships Recommended Associates? Such as Perelli?? I cant say I'm a beliver in all that

He's rearing for a reason and it doesn't sound like simply stubbornesss. I am using a trainer who is experienced in straightness particularly with rehab horses for my WB due to physical issues and the changes in my boys whole demeanour since starting the straightness work is dramatic. He obviously feels better and freer in himself and is therefore a much happier horse. He is relaxed and calm. I was shocked frankly that what seems like simple stuff could have such an effect on personality and behaviour. So I would never diss something like Intelligent Horsemanship until I had tried it.

 

[Patterdale]

If it were mine, I'd start taking him to shows just to ride around, stress free. Ask if you can walk him once round the ring at the end of the day, then pat him and go home. Do this until he's totally settled. For weeks if necessary.
Then start taking him to a few low pressure, intro/prelim dressagey type things, to get him in the ring without jumping.

When he's doing that calmly, enter a very basic jumping class. All of the above HC by the way. If something freaks him, go back a step.

It'll take months and you may be disappointed that he's not doing the top of his ability straight away, but that's horses I'm afraid. It's hard work and requires great quantities of patience - not drugs.

 

[JoJo_]

After being at a Richard Maxwell demo recently, I would really like to see how he would help this horse! Im sure he isnt cheap but maybe see if he is in your area for a clinic?

 

[kp31]

Having done this i can only say don't! Most horrendous feeling, like you aren't in control and have no idea what is going to happen next. I rode mine on vets advice and it was the worst advice he could have given me. In fact i jumped two fences, came to a double and he jumped in and poor boy couldn't jump out. Was supposed to help him, have to say i don't think it helped anyone. I would possibly be thinking that 2 1/2 years down the line that the horse did not want to do it and the stress of it all surely can't be good for him. Have you taken him to somewhere that you can hire the arena and see how he is then? Is it the stress of the show that brings this behaviour out? But i would really strongly advise against riding and jumping on Sedalin.

 

[slumdog]

I have a very talented 138 pony that I've posted about on here before. I took her as a project knowing her issues, she had been off work for a long time (now i know why) and she also tended to boil over and rear. Unfortunately it appears that she has jacked it, the first couple of competitions once I brought her back into work were good, after that I couldn't get her over the 2nd or 3rd fence and now I can't even get her in the warm up. She'll jump 1m10 at home but won't go round a 2ft clear round class once off the yard. I think drugging her would make her even more unsafe than she already is and I've had to accept she'll probably never compete again.

I know for a fact doping happens but it's not something I would do. Does competing really mean that much?

 

[ellie_e]

If it were mine, I'd start taking him to shows just to ride around, stress free. Ask if you can walk him once round the ring at the end of the day, then pat him and go home. Do this until he's totally settled. For weeks if necessary.
Then start taking him to a few low pressure, intro/prelim dressagey type things, to get him in the ring without jumping.

When he's doing that calmly, enter a very basic jumping class. All of the above HC by the way. If something freaks him, go back a step.

It'll take months and you may be disappointed that he's not doing the top of his ability straight away, but that's horses I'm afraid. It's hard work and requires great quantities of patience - not drugs.

We've done this!! Dressage never used to be an issue, so started to forget about the jumping, now he just rears in the dressage ring. Like I said, I think we've been down every other route possible. Hes had 5k spent at the vets, hes been xrayed everywhere, bone scanned, nerve blocked, you name it, hes had it, theres nothing physically wrong with him, Ive sent him to a pro- and he did seem better when he came back, but has now taken a step back.
Hes on a general calmer daily anyway, after trying all of the brands this is the best we've found.

 

[ellie_e]

I know for a fact doping happens but it's not something I would do. Does competing really mean that much?

Kinda... He's not a happy hacker, will not leave the yard by himself, so what do I do with a 9yr old big warmblood who has no proven record and is a complete whimp at a show? Not that I want to or could sell him anyway. And I cant put a healthy happy horse down for not wanting to compete.

 

[ellie_e]

Having done this i can only say don't! Most horrendous feeling, like you aren't in control and have no idea what is going to happen next. I rode mine on vets advice and it was the worst advice he could have given me. In fact i jumped two fences, came to a double and he jumped in and poor boy couldn't jump out. Was supposed to help him, have to say i don't think it helped anyone. I would possibly be thinking that 2 1/2 years down the line that the horse did not want to do it and the stress of it all surely can't be good for him. Have you taken him to somewhere that you can hire the arena and see how he is then? Is it the stress of the show that brings this behaviour out? But i would really strongly advise against riding and jumping on Sedalin.

Yup, all the venues we've gone to hes trained in them lots of time previous.
I've found hes better outdoors, had RC area jumping a few weeks back, stood in last minute for someone, had lots of fences down, but went in the ring twice, and jumped.
Yesterday, RC area drressage- outside, reared at every movement, judge stopped test and eliminated us.
Theres no rhyme or reason, but hes a g*t!