ellie_e
Well-Known Member
Completly agree PM, he is insecure, will NH help this?
Riding under Sedaline?!
- Thread starter ellie_e
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Completly agree PM, he is insecure, will NH help this?
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
OP - can you not see that this horse is trying it's darndest for you? That doesn't mean his eyesight is not compromised or not the problem. That means you do have a great bond and he is doing what comes naturally to all horses - he is trying to please you and do as you ask. Some days he can manage other days not.
Mickyjoe
Well-Known Member
Neither was the horse I knew (also an imported WB). At an away dressage competition he went in and did beautiful tests on the first day, putting him first and second. However on day two in the same arena, the only way to get him in was to lead him and then he did get going, but halfway through threw another tantrum and had to retire.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I had ridden horses on ACP (sometimes with prior knowledge, sometimes not) and prefer not to. However, you are right there are other options and, frankly, I suspect most professionals who are at this point with a horse are not going to go so "old school". HOWEVER this is not something to play around with - leaving out the ethics of the situation - without experienced, knowledgeable professional help. And even then, it's hardly a risk free quick fix.
I'm still not convinced by the vision, frankly, I understand that you are very knowledgeable in the area and well versed on what SHOULD be but perhaps the horse does not agree? Any horse that is unexpectedly anxious in new situations, especially when they are alone is going to be suspect in this area. It could be a not strictly a vision issue but perhaps something to do with how quickly he can change his focus or how the eye reacts to changes in light.
Without seeing, it's impossible to say more.
I had a horse in a similar situation and we did eventually get him competing, using a variety of methods, but it was a long road and he never came close to fulfilling his potential. In that case I knew his complete history and there were multiple factors in play - including vision issues - and it was a case of addressing each one individually.
ellie_e
Well-Known Member
Why though? Ive worked in Optics for 8yrs, agree light does play a role, and certain venues their lighting is awful and he's awful in them, even in a group lesson. However, yesterday was outdoor, so not an excuse as he had been stood outside in the same light for ages! I can agree indoor tests/SJ is different and do know going from light outside to dark indoors does take him time to adapt- I can give him some slack, and already thought about not comepting indoors, however outside, hes being naughty and napping to the others
ellie_e
Well-Known Member
TS I value your opinion, and cross posted 
If your ever in Sunny wales, feel free to pop over and have a go
If your ever in Sunny wales, feel free to pop over and have a go
ester
Not slacking multitasking
But it would be obvious to him if he is insecure to stay with other horses, and he sounds like he has more reasons than most to need that support.
Mickyjoe
Well-Known Member
I don't know, but certainly in my horse's case, whether it was from light into dark or vice versa did not play a huge part. The particular situation I described was in an outdoor sand arena. I think it was purely leaving the security of other horses and possibly it was worse some days than others. I should add that I had no idea about the cataracts until a long time after and numerous vets missed them.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Wow...lots to take in on this thread isn't there.
Taking a few steps back, all I can see in my head is a horse that is being listened to but misunderstood.
I understand you are experienced in optics, but no amount of experience will help you understand how your horse is doing each day. He may have days where things are perceived by him to be ok and those are the days that he behaves...because he is not feeling insecure and is happy to get out and do stuff. He may then have days where his perception of his sight is not so positive. The actual cataract is the same as the day before, but his perceived vulnerability may be different, so he may lack the confidence to go out on his own. All the combined experience and knowledge of all the vets and optic specialists in the world cannot tell you how your horse is perceiving his issues on a daily basis.
Just in the same way that we may go to the doctors with a sprained ankle and they say, you'll be fine to walk on it. Yes, you may be fine one day, but the next day, you are the one with the ankle and despite a doctor telling you you are ok to walk...you know you are not because you are the one feeling the pain.
So...your horse sounds to me like a very genuine boy, trying his hardest for you, but put in situations when he is not feeling secure, he is asking you to please make it stop. They can't talk to us and tell us what is wrong or actually ask us to call it a day and go home...so they have to resort to other means. Napping, rearing, planting etc. He is telling you he doesn't want to do it and the fact that he does do it willingly sometimes makes me believe that he does enjoy it when he is feeling good....but why push him to do it when he is not feeling good?
Of course he will be better at home when training, it is his home, he knows it and it is a security blanket.
I do understand why you want to keep trying for a way to make it work, but the truth may just be that he can't do it consistently.
I personally don't have a problem with using drugs to help horses with fear issues, but to use them for our own agenda is questionable to me in this situation. I don't think it will work in his favour. It might work in your favour, but why should your want take precedence over your horses need.
Of course, this is all just my opinion based on what I have read in these pages, but even as his owner or as his vet or physio or trainer, it would be impossible to know how this horse is perceiving his issues on a daily or even hourly level, so is it right to force a horse, through any means to go through something it is so clearly not happy with?
IH as mentioned may be a good shout as there may be a way to help the horse find more confidence in himself when he is feeling vulnerable and unsure. Worth a try.
Taking a few steps back, all I can see in my head is a horse that is being listened to but misunderstood.
I understand you are experienced in optics, but no amount of experience will help you understand how your horse is doing each day. He may have days where things are perceived by him to be ok and those are the days that he behaves...because he is not feeling insecure and is happy to get out and do stuff. He may then have days where his perception of his sight is not so positive. The actual cataract is the same as the day before, but his perceived vulnerability may be different, so he may lack the confidence to go out on his own. All the combined experience and knowledge of all the vets and optic specialists in the world cannot tell you how your horse is perceiving his issues on a daily basis.
Just in the same way that we may go to the doctors with a sprained ankle and they say, you'll be fine to walk on it. Yes, you may be fine one day, but the next day, you are the one with the ankle and despite a doctor telling you you are ok to walk...you know you are not because you are the one feeling the pain.
So...your horse sounds to me like a very genuine boy, trying his hardest for you, but put in situations when he is not feeling secure, he is asking you to please make it stop. They can't talk to us and tell us what is wrong or actually ask us to call it a day and go home...so they have to resort to other means. Napping, rearing, planting etc. He is telling you he doesn't want to do it and the fact that he does do it willingly sometimes makes me believe that he does enjoy it when he is feeling good....but why push him to do it when he is not feeling good?
Of course he will be better at home when training, it is his home, he knows it and it is a security blanket.
I do understand why you want to keep trying for a way to make it work, but the truth may just be that he can't do it consistently.
I personally don't have a problem with using drugs to help horses with fear issues, but to use them for our own agenda is questionable to me in this situation. I don't think it will work in his favour. It might work in your favour, but why should your want take precedence over your horses need.
Of course, this is all just my opinion based on what I have read in these pages, but even as his owner or as his vet or physio or trainer, it would be impossible to know how this horse is perceiving his issues on a daily or even hourly level, so is it right to force a horse, through any means to go through something it is so clearly not happy with?
IH as mentioned may be a good shout as there may be a way to help the horse find more confidence in himself when he is feeling vulnerable and unsure. Worth a try.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
your points about perception are excellent GG
ellie_e
Well-Known Member
I get all that, and I do try to be sympathetic, but he was warming up lovely yesterday, a steward called me over to say what a nice horse he is, then 2mins later, rearing and throwing his toys out, I get that his eye isnt great, but they can have a very good competitive life with just one eye! Was it Ellen W's horse just had one eye?
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
OP every horse is individual, just because it worked for Ellen W's horse doesn't mean it has to for yours. Can you not see that? It's the same with people isn't it - some cope with a disability well, others not so. I really think you are misunderstanding him sadly.
chaps89
Well-Known Member
Presumably tho cataracts mean some/limited vision, meaning on a day to day basis there are variables in the horses sight, hence the variables in behaviour? A horse who has one eye removed I would have thought may adapt much better as it becomes the norm for it viewing the world with 1 eye.
(NB, I am no eye specialist, nor am I suggesting the eye be removed, just wondering if that could be why horses with sight in one eye only are different?)
(NB, I am no eye specialist, nor am I suggesting the eye be removed, just wondering if that could be why horses with sight in one eye only are different?)
ester
Not slacking multitasking
ellens wore a contact, I can't remember what was exactly wrong though.
TuscanBunnyGirl
Well-Known Member
sounds like he's having to shout to be heard..
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
Just because the cataract isn't getting worse by your vet's definition doesn't mean the horse feels OK with it. It may be that he's been feeling more and more insecure as time has gone on (maybe because of it, or maybe it's just another thing to add to the list that is making him insecure), and has finally thrown the towel in.
It sounds to me like he's insecure full stop, not in the ring. In all honesty I would speak to your vet again (or get another opinion if needed) about the cataract and get it operated on if you can. Then I would work on getting him hacking out alone and nothing else, for a long time. Do loads of hacking and build up the time he spends alone gradually.
Don't discount the IH methods. I am not especially fluffy and a few years ago would have been aghast at the idea of getting "one of those people" out. However, horse at the time had become rude, bargy and aggressive. I'd tried everything to deal with it, as had other (more experienced) people on the yard, with no success. In the end, someone suggested getting a Kelly Marks RA out and it was a revelation. In half an hour I had a horse who was responsive, listening and stopped trying to kill me. I wouldn't say it was a miracle because I had lots of stuff I needed to continue working on after to ensure it became ingrained behaviour (and a lot of the problem was actually with me, not the horse...), but it was as near as dammit! I haven't needed another RA visit but wouldn't hesitate to use one again if the need arose. They don't come along waving carrot sticks, crystals or any of the stereotypical things you expect. IME they're actually very no-nonsense and the one who came to me was really quite hard on my horse to begin with. But it worked
If you can get to the bottom of your horse's insecurity and decide to start competing again, I think I'd start with showing classes where he has company in the ring. That might help a lot.
It sounds to me like he's insecure full stop, not in the ring. In all honesty I would speak to your vet again (or get another opinion if needed) about the cataract and get it operated on if you can. Then I would work on getting him hacking out alone and nothing else, for a long time. Do loads of hacking and build up the time he spends alone gradually.
Don't discount the IH methods. I am not especially fluffy and a few years ago would have been aghast at the idea of getting "one of those people" out. However, horse at the time had become rude, bargy and aggressive. I'd tried everything to deal with it, as had other (more experienced) people on the yard, with no success. In the end, someone suggested getting a Kelly Marks RA out and it was a revelation. In half an hour I had a horse who was responsive, listening and stopped trying to kill me. I wouldn't say it was a miracle because I had lots of stuff I needed to continue working on after to ensure it became ingrained behaviour (and a lot of the problem was actually with me, not the horse...), but it was as near as dammit! I haven't needed another RA visit but wouldn't hesitate to use one again if the need arose. They don't come along waving carrot sticks, crystals or any of the stereotypical things you expect. IME they're actually very no-nonsense and the one who came to me was really quite hard on my horse to begin with. But it worked
If you can get to the bottom of your horse's insecurity and decide to start competing again, I think I'd start with showing classes where he has company in the ring. That might help a lot.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
But no two horses are the same. Some horses stoically put up with pain or issues all of their lives with little or no complaint yet others are very vocal about it. Go to any local show... you can see a horse with the most dreadfully fitting saddle (for example) which is doing the best job it can and trying its hardest. And the next horse could be one whose owner spent a fortune finding the right saddle/girth/whatever because the horse objected violently to everything. Just because one horse reacts in a specific way doesn't mean the next one will.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Please bear with me on this post...it may seem like I am attacking you but I am not, I promise...I fully empathise with your situation, but I would like to ask you to take a step back and see things for what they are, not what you may think they are.
To compare any horse or any injury or illness with another is something that should never be done if you have your horses best interests at heart. You can't say you "get" something and then come straight back with an example of how another horse has done something. That other horse does not have your horses issue, it has its own issue and the two, whilst similar medically, could be completely different as perceived by the individual horse. You can have two horses that have to have an eye removed. One may go on to compete in the Olympics, the other may be completely unable to adjust and cope and need to be PTS. Neither should be compared to the other.
Be honest with yourself Ellie. Have you ever had someone at home have a cold or throat infection and be ill....only for you to get the same bug a week later. That person thinks you should be able to do x,y or z because they could, but you know you've got it worse and you know you can't do those things. One size does not fit all...we are not clones and neither are our horses.
Not having an eye at all may even be better....how can perception change when there is no input at all. At the moment, your horses perception could be based on how the cataract is affecting him day to day or hour to hour. It can be determined by light and dark, it can be determined by the humidity level dictating how moist the eye is and how able to function it is. Take away the constant changing of perception due to outside stimulus like light and moisture and things could settle down.
Am I advising you to have your horses eye removed? No. I am just saying when do you stop? You're considering sedation to get the horse to compete. Would you consider removal of an eye to do the same? If the answer is no, which I really hope it would be, then maybe just accept that this horses lot in life is to have fun at home on his good days and be left to just be happy doing nothing on his bad days.
As for the warm up. It is perfectly understandable that he was comfortable in the warm up. No stress, just working away with other things going on, nice and relaxed. Steward comes over, then you get ready to go to the ring...whether you are aware of it or not, your heart rate will rise in anticipation and he will, after the time you have been doing this, realise where you are about to go. Why should he wait until you get there if it's perceived by him to be a bad day. He'll just want to stay in his little warm up comfort zone.
As I said, I am not having a go. I can see that you are wanting to be more understanding but I can't shake the feeling that you just want it to work. You want to be able to compete and you want to do it on this horse. Just because you want it though doesn't mean it is going to be possible. Every time you put him in this situation, you are causing him distress. Do you want that? Is that what horse ownership is about for you?
He isn't telling you he can't do it. He's just telling you he can't do it on certain days or at certain times. No competition should be more important than the welfare of your horse. I just don't think anyone has the right to make an animal do something it doesn't want to do for such materialistic gain. It's not stress for the sake of saving his life or getting him into a safe place or out of danger. It is not stress for the sake of ensuring safety. It is stress so that you can go around a course of jumps at a competition. Really think about that and decide if you can be happy with putting your horse through that stress just for your own whim.
3Beasties
Well-Known Member
This ^^ I think if you tackle the hacking issues you may find he is better to compete.
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
Sounds a bit like everyone talking to op is having to shout to be heard, unfortunately op doesn't seem to want to hear that it may not be fair or right for the horse. I don't even mean that in a nasty way, I really do get how hard it is when something is happening that you really don't want to accept.
Eyesight and perception in horses is different to that of humans op. this is a sensitive horse that has led a pressured life to achieve, sometimes horses can deal with this, sometimes they can't, add to that eyesight issues, insecurity and stress/pressure at every event, not just from competing but from your worries, expectations and fears relating to his behaviour... What more suiting pun? You would have to be blind to see this is unfair and selfish to continue as you are doing. Take a step back, give your horse some time to just settle hacking and relaxing at home. You never know, if its a vicious circle, and you break that circle by working on confidence and security issues at home, even with his eye issues he may develop the confidence to compete again. He is not going to develop the confidence by being pushed, sedative or no sedative.
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LegOn
Well-Known Member
Someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread - an AC? Animal Communicator - its not expensive & heck, its worth a try to be honest.
We had a horse on the yard that was constantly biting and vicious on the ground - amazing to ride but impossible to handle & tack up. He was checked for months for pain & buted up & everything done on him to get him to stop but he wouldnt. He was handled gently, given a good whack, everything was tried. We got an animal communicator out & he told he her that he looses his temper very quickly & he wasnt in pain - we got her to tell him that it wasnt acceptable any more and to quit it. He enjoyed his work so she was able to reason with him that he wouldnt get to do his job anymore if he didnt co-operate on the ground.
And hey-presto, chilled out horse who is now much easier to handle! Worth a try - nothing ventured, nothing gained!
We had a horse on the yard that was constantly biting and vicious on the ground - amazing to ride but impossible to handle & tack up. He was checked for months for pain & buted up & everything done on him to get him to stop but he wouldnt. He was handled gently, given a good whack, everything was tried. We got an animal communicator out & he told he her that he looses his temper very quickly & he wasnt in pain - we got her to tell him that it wasnt acceptable any more and to quit it. He enjoyed his work so she was able to reason with him that he wouldnt get to do his job anymore if he didnt co-operate on the ground.
And hey-presto, chilled out horse who is now much easier to handle! Worth a try - nothing ventured, nothing gained!
Supanova
Well-Known Member
Out of interest, what do you do when your horse rears and refuses to go?
ellie_e
Well-Known Member
Hold on tight!! when hes jumping grab his martingale, dressaging hold his neck. when he has 4 feet on the floor, he moves on as if nothing has happened. Then will either do the test/round no probs, or try it again.
Supanova
Well-Known Member
So do you do anything when he has 4 feet back on the ground? i.e. do you get cross, smack him (not that i'm suggesting you should, i'm just wondering how you react to him)? When you try to go in the ring does he just keep rearing and rearing until you have to give up?
ellie_e
Well-Known Member
No, dont hit him! (that makes him worse) just ignore him, he gets bored, and carries on with test or round. To go in the ring, once 4 feet are on the floor, he will normally go backwards, so use this to get us to the first fence- then kick on and jump normally around the course ok. He will have fences down as hes rushing, but Id rather that than not going anywhere.
ellie_e
Well-Known Member
I should perhaps add, he was with a young girl for a few months before I bought him, where we believe all this started from, he would say no, she would get off and refuse to ride him. Previous to that, he was at a dealers yard, Ive spoken to them, and seen videos, horse looks happy jumping around a course in competition
rachyblue
Well-Known Member
It's one thing understanding optics, it's another (impossible) thing to know exactly what your horse is seeing (or not as the case may be) on a day to day basis.
Personally I'd start by giving him a good (6 + weeks) holiday to chill out. That doesn't mean you have to abandon him in a field, just minimal handling, other than for things he might enjoy, like grooming etc. Warmbloods are by their nature often stress heads, even the calmer ones can have a full on meltdown if pushed too hard for too long. They are intelligent (despite appearances sometimes) animals and are often keen to please, and when they can't it can really stress them out.
He sounds insecure and stressed, don't be afraid of trying something different, the more traditional seems to have failed him so far. Don't be scared of people with carrot sticks (I am not a parelli nut, but I like some of the equipment, the sticks are useful for precision poking) you may find something that works.
But you may have to accept that he won't compete again.
Personally I'd start by giving him a good (6 + weeks) holiday to chill out. That doesn't mean you have to abandon him in a field, just minimal handling, other than for things he might enjoy, like grooming etc. Warmbloods are by their nature often stress heads, even the calmer ones can have a full on meltdown if pushed too hard for too long. They are intelligent (despite appearances sometimes
) animals and are often keen to please, and when they can't it can really stress them out.He sounds insecure and stressed, don't be afraid of trying something different, the more traditional seems to have failed him so far. Don't be scared of people with carrot sticks (I am not a parelli nut, but I like some of the equipment, the sticks are useful for precision poking
) you may find something that works.But you may have to accept that he won't compete again.
Supanova
Well-Known Member
And just to be clear - this only ever happens when you are in the competition ring or going hacking?
_GG_
Well-Known Member
You might have had some different input if this was included in your OP.
Whatever the reasons behind this, blindly carrying on and trying to "cover" the problem will just mask symptoms, not get to the cause.
Give him a decent 4-6 week break from ridden work as you say he has never had that and then start over taking everything into account and following some of the great advice that has been given on this thread.
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ellie_e
Well-Known Member
Yes- when ever pressure is applied this is what it results in.