Riding under Sedaline?!

[Patterdale]

Well then if you are confident in mind that you COULD NOT have done more to help this horse, you have gone down every avenue and given him all the time he needs, and he's just getting worse.....I would retire him from competition. It's clearly making him very unhappy, and you can't be getting much out of it either.

I have only ever had one horse that could not be cured of a serious nap/rearing. Until her, I wouldn't have believed there wasn't a problem you couldn't solve with time and patience. But some horses just aren't mentally cut out for the job.

 

[Mickyjoe]

Have you had his eyes checked? Just a thought as the reactions sound familiar to a horse that I know, who turned out to have bad cataracts and while he was probably a nappy horse anyway, the eyes were obviously making the whole thing worse.

 

[ellie_e]

Well then if you are confident in mind that you COULD NOT have done more to help this horse, you have gone down every avenue and given him all the time he needs, and he's just getting worse.....I would retire him from competition. It's clearly making him very unhappy, and you can't be getting much out of it either.

I have only ever had one horse that could not be cured of a serious nap/rearing. Until her, I wouldn't have believed there wasn't a problem you couldn't solve with time and patience. But some horses just aren't mentally cut out for the job.

I sort of agree, but he will do it occasionally, which is annoying as I think Ive made progress when he does do it, then next time, he downs tools.
What do you do with a 9yr old, diva??

 

[Queenbee]

Sorry op, I'm appalled that anyone would even consider or suggest that this is acceptable or a possible solution.

 

[ellie_e]

Have you had his eyes checked? Just a thought as the reactions sound familiar to a horse that I know, who turned out to have bad cataracts and while he was probably a nappy horse anyway, the eyes were obviously making the whole thing worse.

Yup, he does have a cataract in his LE, Brian Patterson saw him Friday, but its small, they will not operate unless its causing the horse to be blind. Spooking is fine, I can cope with that, ring shy is a different matter, hes been in the arenas hundreds of times before.

 

[ellie_e]

Sorry op, I'm appalled that anyone would even consider or suggest that this is acceptable or a possible solution.

You would be suprised the number of Pro's that compete on it, and also bute!
Im looking for people who have used it, or suggestions of things to try- not moaning, Im fully aware its not an ideal situation, and its not been the first thing Ive tried either (read all the thread)

 

[ester]

He wouldn't be the first to have issues going in the ring/jumping at shows some just can't do it and he obviously has similar issues hacking. If mine I think I would find a local IH associate (not parelli ) and see what they think/if there is anything they can do.

 

[slumdog]

Kinda... He's not a happy hacker, will not leave the yard by himself, so what do I do with a 9yr old big warmblood who has no proven record and is a complete whimp at a show? Not that I want to or could sell him anyway. And I cant put a healthy happy horse down for not wanting to compete.

Oh no I wouldn't suggest put him down, but look at it this way, you said he doesn't leave the yard by himself and isn't a happy hacker, so do you make him? He doesn't compete either so why make him? I do get what you're saying and I know how bloody frustrating it is when they are so talented, I honestly do. But if you're resorting to making him jump when he's sedated then that's not a helping him either. It sounds like you're desperately trying to find a 'job' for him to do, would he just be a 'fun' horse? Pleasure rides etc, will he do xc? Or maybe try trec? There's lots of things for him to do without him being in a jumping ring

 

[ellie_e]

He wouldn't be the first to have issues going in the ring/jumping at shows some just can't do it and he obviously has similar issues hacking. If mine I think I would find a local IH associate (not parelli ) and see what they think/if there is anything they can do.

Thanks Ester!!
Will have a google- I have to say I've never really thought of them being much cop, but its worth ago, I love this horse, and dont want to see him as a field pet.
Also has anyone tried Piriton?

 

[Pinkvboots]

It sounds to me like his been over jumped and competed to much too young, abroad they often get warmbloods out at 4 doing big courses which in my opinion some are just not ready mentally, they are jumped and jumped and made sour, i would just get him out hacking with company of course no jumps for a good while, no competing and see how he goes some horses just do not have the mind for competion he might be one of them or he could just be sour, but sedating him no I think that is the wrong way to go.

 

[Queenbee]

Your assumption that I have not read the whole thread is wrong from what I've seen in this thread... 'He hates it' 'he doesn't want to do it' 'can I use sedaline to force him' you're already deciding that your wishes are a priority here, force begets force.

I'm perfectly aware that horses are competed with bute, bute is a totally differ drug with different effects and administered for different reasons (sometimes used/administered for the wrong reasons). Anyone using sedaline to compete is off their head, has no idea about horse welfare and no respect for their horse in my opinion, but none of the above is what you want to hear, so what shall I say? "Oh yes, cracking idea... Go for it!"

Your horse is 9 for crying out loud, a slightly different scenario but my friend bought a youngster, competed him, he was a fab all rounder but with a particular panache for dressage, about ten years down the line, he started to refuse to load, once he was at the shows he loved it, but had right issues loading... Despite numerous attempts to fix this it only got worse, he was sold to a home where the owners hold dressage competitions on site, he doesn't have to travel anywhere anymore but he gets to do the competing that he loves. Sometimes it's about finding what is right for the horse.

If it were my horse, I'd accept 'he hates it' and I would completely remove all pressure from him, hacking out with friends, schooling at home, doing fun pressure free things, working to no other goal than getting him relaxed in his own skin, I'd do this for at least a year before I even considered another competition, and if after a year I didn't think he was ready, I wouldn't bloody take him to one. If he never felt ready... Well, pretty sure you know my answer! If he isn't happy at home, he isn't going to be happy when you escalate the pressure even if you pump him full of sedaline. You risk yourself and your horse.

Whatever happened to listening to your horse, you are listening, you yourself admits he hates it, but you are doing nothing more than ignoring it for the glory of competition if you pump him full of sedaline to get him around a course.

 

[gingerlegs]

You would be suprised the number of Pro's that compete on it, and also bute!
Im looking for people who have used it, or suggestions of things to try- not moaning, Im fully aware its not an ideal situation, and its not been the first thing Ive tried either (read all the thread)

Just wanted to add you are completely right!

When I still worked in racing we used A LOT of sedalin! One of the mares in particular was prone to Azoturia, we would work her (including fast work) and get her fit on Sedalin to prevent this up, until 4 weeks before her first race of the season (to get it out the system) so she could get into a work routine without stressing herself.
She was only given a very minute dose, to take the edge off... and I mean a drop! but it worked and I believe it was vet recommended...

I've also known a few to be broken in under Sedalin because there was no way you'd get on them otherwise!

I have never seen any adverse affects and think, used sensibly and appropriately it is no different to clipping a horse, seeing the dentist, shoeing ect under sedalin until it becomes a calm routine and the horse understands that it is not going to cause pain/distress or otherwise.

I will now run for cover and prepare to be shot down!!

 

[ellie_e]

Oh no I wouldn't suggest put him down, but look at it this way, you said he doesn't leave the yard by himself and isn't a happy hacker, so do you make him? He doesn't compete either so why make him? I do get what you're saying and I know how bloody frustrating it is when they are so talented, I honestly do. But if you're resorting to making him jump when he's sedated then that's not a helping him either. It sounds like you're desperately trying to find a 'job' for him to do, would he just be a 'fun' horse? Pleasure rides etc, will he do xc? Or maybe try trec? There's lots of things for him to do without him being in a jumping ring

OH GOD NO! Cant do fun rides, they ARE NOT fun!! lol, he really does need a 'job' hes quick, and cleaver and gets bored easily, Hes does XC schooling although not too keen on water
My mother joke, that his idea of heaven would be, stood in his stable 24/7 eating, being groomed and looking beautiful. However he is far to expensive to keep in a stable!
I am going to google these natural horse people, do they ride the horse for you?? Or just wave carrot sticks?!

 

[TarrSteps]

Did you say the horse DOES have a cataract?

 

[ellie_e]

Just wanted to add you are completely right!

When I still worked in racing we used A LOT of sedalin! One of the mares in particular was prone to Azoturia, we would work her (including fast work) and get her fit on Sedalin to prevent this up, until 4 weeks before her first race of the season (to get it out the system) so she could get into a work routine without stressing herself.
She was only given a very minute dose, to take the edge off... and I mean a drop! but it worked and I believe it was vet recommended...

I've also known a few to be broken in under Sedalin because there was no way you'd get on them otherwise!

I have never seen any adverse affects and think, used sensibly and appropriately it is no different to clipping a horse, seeing the dentist, shoeing ect under sedalin until it becomes a calm routine and the horse understands that it is not going to cause pain/distress or otherwise.

I will now run for cover and prepare to be shot down!!

Thanks for posting!!! I think people are assuming Im a novice rider who at first instance would like to drug her horse for convenience, this is not the case, and would not class myself as a novice (nor am I a pro)
If there were another method I could try, I would. He’s a smashing horse when he allows you to ride him, just want to continue that in the DR/SJ ring, and show him off.

 

[Booboos]

Have you tried a pain killer trial just in case he is actually in pain from something you haven't identified yet?
Has he been scoped for ulcers? He could be having flair ups in stressful situations?

Sorry can't think of anything else! Personally I have ridden with sedaline on the vet's orders as it was the only way I could safely get a box rested horse back into work. Could you maybe use the sedaline for a dressage test rather than jumping (and go HC of course)?

 

[Mickyjoe]

Did you say the horse DOES have a cataract?

Thank you!! I feel like the only one who considers this element as significant!!

 

[YasandCrystal]

Exactly Tarrsteps. This will be the cause no doubt. It's extremely difficult for any eye specialist even to say with any certainty how badly eyesight is affected by cataracts or any eye damage for that matter.

I know of an example of this where the vet said the horse's vision was fine. The horse moved yards and became a nightmare and in the end was pts - because poor horse couldn't see properly and was fine on the familiar old yard it had spent years on.

Listen to your horse.

 

[JillA]

You don't believe in alternatives such as Intelligent Horsemanship? The way I see it your convention approach hasn't got you very far - so what have you got to lose?
My horse was home bred and I know his whole history from when he was the size of a garden pea, but he was a nightmare to break, and spooked at the most ridiculous things, and never seemed to learn. I found the underlying cause (magnesium deficiency) and then had to find a way to educate him that didn't go over the old ground that had failed so much. I read Mark Rashid, learned to see things from the horse's point of view and began to add more and more tools to my very old and very traditional toolbox - pressure and release, leadership skills, aversion therapy which didn't scare him. Your horse is telling you that for whatever reason he isn't happy - how about you see it from his viewpoint and try and find out what is making him so stressed. No prey animal wastes valuable energy for no good reason, so whatever you think, to him it MATTERS
Good "natural horsemen" (how I HATE that phrase but it does mean working with the horses' nature rather than expecting him to fit in with what we decide for him) will use body language and pressure and release to let him know he is safe and he won't be pushed beyond his comfort zone. then they gradually extend his comfort zone, bit by bit but never beyond what he can cope with.
Check it out, you might be pleasantly surprised - but when you find someone, ask others about them, there are some charlatans out there. Check on here, someone will know. I can recommend Micky Gavin, Richard Maxwell and Intelligent Horsemanship's RA's, who are probably the best way to dip your toe in the water without spending a fortune, and seeing whether it helps. You are already paying a trainer, why not change direction and pay someone who might make a difference?
Just seen your question about carrot sticks. If they use one of them, run for the hills!!! Here is somewhere to start http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html - most will do groundwork to desensitise him to stuff he is anxious about, some will teach you on him, not many will ride him themselves because it is about the relationship between you and him, not them and him

 

[ellie_e]

Did you say the horse DOES have a cataract?

He does yes, has had it for years, no change in size, and can see pretty well. His eyesight I do not believe is the problem. I work in Optics so understand the visual system pretty well.

 

[DabDab]

Thanks Ester!!
Will have a google- I have to say I've never really thought of them being much cop, but its worth ago, I love this horse, and dont want to see him as a field pet.
Also has anyone tried Piriton?

I think Kelly Marks (owns the IH company) is actually on this forum

 

[ellie_e]

Have you tried a pain killer trial just in case he is actually in pain from something you haven't identified yet?
Has he been scoped for ulcers? He could be having flair ups in stressful situations?

Sorry can't think of anything else! Personally I have ridden with sedaline on the vet's orders as it was the only way I could safely get a box rested horse back into work. Could you maybe use the sedaline for a dressage test rather than jumping (and go HC of course)?

Hes been scoped, clear, and has had a bute trial, as previous post, nothing wrong physically, all scanned and A OK

 

[little_flea]

Have you tried a pain killer trial just in case he is actually in pain from something you haven't identified yet?
Has he been scoped for ulcers? He could be having flair ups in stressful situations?

Sorry can't think of anything else! Personally I have ridden with sedaline on the vet's orders as it was the only way I could safely get a box rested horse back into work. Could you maybe use the sedaline for a dressage test rather than jumping (and go HC of course)?

Absolutely! I have ridden many a horse on acp after box rest. Competing is slightly different though I admit. There are plenty of other drugs available but many wouldn't be allowed in competitions... many of them would definitely not slow reaction time etc. Humans are allowed to compete on anti depressants after all... I think the stuff us 'normal" people are aware of are just the tip of the iceberg! If all else fails, perhaps worth trying something for a while, as Booboos says, compete HC and by the time the horse is clear it might have overcome issues. *joins firing squad line up*

 

[Mickyjoe]

He does yes, has had it for years, no change in size, and can see pretty well. His eyesight I do not believe is the problem. I work in Optics so understand the visual system pretty well.

His reactions sound pretty much identical to the horse I knew. Not wanting to leave the yard on his own, refusing to even walk a step in front of the other horse, throwing tantrums in the ring. When you think about it, he is bound to be better at home or in familiar surroundings. It's only when he is going into unfamiliar territory that a sensitive or nappy horse, whose eyesight is compromised even in a small way, will lose braveness and willingness.

 

[Patterdale]

When did he last have a holiday?

A proper one - at least a month in the field 24/7, no riding whatsoever?

 

[ester]

I do think using it to bring a horse back into work without injuring itself or the rider is different to competing when you are expecting performance.

If he has had it a long time it does sound like his compromised sight may well be the source of the issues, or at least that he would be a nervous type anyway and the sight issue exacerbates this past the point of being dealable with. I am wondering whether he goes better into outdoor rings could be because of the different light levels indoors.

 

[ellie_e]

His reactions sound pretty much identical to the horse I knew. Not wanting to leave the yard on his own, refusing to even walk a step in front of the other horse, throwing tantrums in the ring. When you think about it, he is bound to be better at home or in familiar surroundings. It's only when he is going into unfamiliar territory that a sensitive or nappy horse, whose eyesight is compromised even in a small way, will lose braveness and willingness.

If it was consistent I could perhaps agree, one day he will go in and jump/ compete dressage and be ok, hack down the lane ok. Other week he refuses to leave yard or does, gets half way and panics. The venues hes been to compete, hes there most weeks anyway, and one day decides he wont go in the arena.

 

[Patterdale]

Sorry - just seen that he has a cataract.

*facepalm*

 

[PaddyMonty]

He's not a happy hacker, will not leave the yard by himself,

This is the biggest clue to your problem. From my esperience I would say your horse does not have "ring" issues, he has security issues.
Wont hack alone
Warms up ok at comps but wont go in to ring (alone).
Look at solving the insecurity (start with hacking) and once you resolve that you may well find the competing issues will be minimal

 

[ellie_e]

When did he last have a holiday?

A proper one - at least a month in the field 24/7, no riding whatsoever?

Hmmm, not since Ive had him has he had 1month off, hes had a holiday of a week/10days, but doesnt live out well so is stabled either in the day(summer) or at night (winter)