RIP Fox Hunt

Tristar what planet are you on, a horse on the racecourse is dealt with immediately a horse or pony in the field if it is only checked once a day could have to wait 24 hours before anyone found it.
 
tristar said:
EKW try being a highly sensitive and intelligent animal that is totally aware of what is happening, then to lose your life in painfull and tragic circumstances, very young, when you have personally experienced this you will be qualified to speak for the animals.

if a pony hurts itself in the field here, it will be dealt with immediately and quietly, there is always someone here, horses are our life and their welfare comes before all else.

sadly a large part of the problem is that they are so young, they have not yet gained their full skeletal strength, are in a state of growth and therefore somewhat unbalanced, maybe this contributes.
Click to expand...

Have you ever personally had a serious injury? Pardon me if you have but I speak from experience when I say you would be amazed at how powerful adrenaline is. people often comment on how young and unbalanced etc flat tbs are...any I have ridden are far from unbalanced. There are also a huge amount of them put away and not brought out until they are older as they need more time. I have a two year old sport horse that I bred, by a TB X Warmblood mare. There is no comparison between him and the average fit to race tb two year old....they are so forward! The horses in the race where three horses died in Meydan were aged 4-7 so were mature. While I agree that they are highly sensitive and intelligent animals they do not have human thoughts...they do not think my leg is broken so I am going to die. They are dead before the adrenalin has left their system which if a horse has to go I feel is the best circumstances in which to go.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Tristar what planet are you on, a horse on the racecourse is dealt with immediately a horse or pony in the field if it is only checked once a day could have to wait 24 hours before anyone found it.
Click to expand...

I think Tristar was referring to her own personal horses and ponies
 
ditto what amage said. i broke my arm years ago, i'm the world's biggest wimp but i felt NOTHING at all until the paramedic pulled it straight, then nothing again for about another 20 minutes. then i must admit it really really really chuffing well did hurt...
don't underestimate the strength of adrenalin.
as for the race - awful if it was down to the going. RIP horses.
the big blue wheelie bin trundles again... :( :( :(
 
yes thankyou, i have hurt myself several times.!!

i would not wish that on any horse, we make the decisions, we put them at risk, i personally feel 6 years is the right age for ANY horse in ANY discipline to start work under pressure, achieving true balance is not just a simple thing it takes years of training, there are far more than three types of tbs,.

i see nothing that can make it 'acceptable' for three horses to die in one race, that is after all what the discussion is about, hopefully something will be learned, but too late for the horses concerned.
 
EKW said:
I am a bit of a breeding geek when it comes to TB's and over the last 6-7 years have looked into many, many bloodlines. From what I've seen and taken note of you have 3 types of TB -
The Coolmore ones which generally have good conformation, breed good conformation and are fairly set though they don't always have the most straight forward of tempraments.

The Darley ones which are usually devestatingly pretty and dainty, have decent depth to them, a good attitude but they tend to lack back ends and don't always have the best basic conformation or the best feet.

The Juddmont ones. These are usually heavier set that the previous 2 in all respects. The ones I have come across have all had big heads, good shoulders, big bums and a decent set of pins on them - though not always the straighest of legs.

They say conformation can be overlooked if the horse does the job required of it. Dodgy conformation will always lead to a higher risk of injury with the speed the legs are being required to work at.

2 of the fatally injured horses were Darley/Godolphin bred. The 3rd had half of their bloodlines on the dams side. Go figure.

It's the mass inbreeding of these horses that start to produce the conformation faults. These horses are then trained, are sucessful and then bred from again thus producing more of the fault. And so on and so forth. If you removed every TB that had a fault big enough to possibly induce injury from the paddocks then you would be left with a mere handful. It's the same with everything - you choose the lesser of two evils when crossing horses and hope the offspring turns out better basically than it's parents.
Click to expand...


Definitely very interesting. I wrote an over-long and meandering blog post musing on this after a study came out showing that TBs were a few generations away from an inbreeding crisis. I'd been interested to discover that a major farm like Three Chimneys actually recommended linebreeding, and linebreeding for a stallion that had major unsoundness issues in its career.


As to adrenalin and injuries: I sat by a friend who'd just lost one leg and had the other smashed in a road traffic incident, and he was telling jokes... It was a ten to fifteen minutes before he got his ketamin from the paramedics and I don't think he felt pain in that time.
 
tristar said:
a lot of american tbs have their legs operated on before they make it to the racetrack.
QUOTE]

??? Name ONE...or more, go on !

I know personally many American TB breeders, racehorse owners, and trainers. In over 40 years have not known, or even heard of personally or "through the grapevine / chinese whispers" of one, let alone "alot" who have been operated on BEFORE they get to the track.
Click to expand...
 
tristar said:
if a pony hurts itself in the field here, it will be dealt with immediately and quietly, there is always someone here, horses are our life and their welfare comes before all else.
QUOTE]

Ehhhh??? In the field, dealt with immdediately, always someone here???

What do you do, stand guard over them 24 hours a day? From this your horses are NEVER EVER out at night, unless of course you have floodlit fields with again someone on night duty observing them. And how long are they turned out for, 30 minutes so they can be watched? All your fields are within direct view of someone 24 hours a day?

IF, and just IF one of your's broke a leg in the field, and you call the vet immediately (because of course you are by it's side 24 / 7 ) how long does your vet take to get to you?
Click to expand...
 
EKW said:
I am a bit of a breeding geek when it comes to TB's and over the last 6-7 years have looked into many, many bloodlines. From what I've seen and taken note of you have 3 types of TB -
The Coolmore ones which generally have good conformation, breed good conformation and are fairly set though they don't always have the most straight forward of tempraments.

The Darley ones which are usually devestatingly pretty and dainty, have decent depth to them, a good attitude but they tend to lack back ends and don't always have the best basic conformation or the best feet.

The Juddmont ones. These are usually heavier set that the previous 2 in all respects. The ones I have come across have all had big heads, good shoulders, big bums and a decent set of pins on them - though not always the straighest of legs.

They say conformation can be overlooked if the horse does the job required of it. Dodgy conformation will always lead to a higher risk of injury with the speed the legs are being required to work at.

2 of the fatally injured horses were Darley/Godolphin bred. The 3rd had half of their bloodlines on the dams side. Go figure.

It's the mass inbreeding of these horses that start to produce the conformation faults. These horses are then trained, are sucessful and then bred from again thus producing more of the fault. And so on and so forth. If you removed every TB that had a fault big enough to possibly induce injury from the paddocks then you would be left with a mere handful. It's the same with everything - you choose the lesser of two evils when crossing horses and hope the offspring turns out better basically than it's parents.
Click to expand...
I have been following racing since I was very small & studied TB pedigrees since my early teens; I am now in my 50s.
Firstly horses were raced younger (there used to be yearling races up to the mid 20thc) & harder. The racecourses were never watered then & summers were in many cases drier. If you look at the Derby there were not frequent leg breaks until the 1950s & then they were very rare & sporadic ditto 1960s & 1970s, as we move into the 1980s there were more. You very rarely saw a horse break it's leg on the flat, either in between fences & hurdles or in a flat race. It seems to becoming very, very common.
Secondly if you pick up a stallion book, look in the breeding section of an old Horse & Hound from before the 1980s you will see a difference. That difference is in the size of the gene pool of stallions. As recently as the 1980s there were male lines of Hyperion & Blandford available & earlier than that of Hurry On. I think the last significant stallion from the Hurry On line was Sheshoon & what a fine specimen he was, with superb limbs.
What has happened? Fashion & greed. Northern Dancer, Northern Dancer....too many of his sons at stud, some with poor conformation. Then Mr Prospector as well. These are the only two real blood lines in the world constantly being crossed & recrossed. Look in the paddock before the race, lots of washy bays with white in their tails, that is from Northern Dancer. If a visual artist & art lecturer can see it why can't the horse breeders?
The trouble is there is very little blood , if any to outcross to, perhaps they will eventually have to introduce rough blood from another breed, because if things go on like this the bone will get brittler & brittler.
 
Honeylight said:
Secondly if you pick up a stallion book, look in the breeding section of an old Horse & Hound from before the 1980s you will see a difference. That difference is in the size of the gene pool of stallions. As recently as the 1980s there were male lines of Hyperion & Blandford available & earlier than that of Hurry On. I think the last significant stallion from the Hurry On line was Sheshoon & what a fine specimen he was, with superb limbs.
What has happened? Fashion & greed. Northern Dancer, Northern Dancer....too many of his sons at stud, some with poor conformation. Then Mr Prospector as well. These are the only two real blood lines in the world constantly being crossed & recrossed. Look in the paddock before the race, lots of washy bays with white in their tails, that is from Northern Dancer. If a visual artist & art lecturer can see it why can't the horse breeders?
The trouble is there is very little blood , if any to outcross to, perhaps they will eventually have to introduce rough blood from another breed, because if things go on like this the bone will get brittler & brittler.
Click to expand...


Breeding advice I found on the website for Three Chimneys which backs up your theory:

Champion BIG BROWN has a very special pedigree pattern to make a successful sire. Although inbred 3×3 to Northern Dancer via speed sons Danzig and Nureyev, BIG BROWN inherits classic speed from inbreeding to a rare combination of the Damascus/Round Table affinity. His genetic pattern indicates it was no fluke he became a Champion racehorse with clean airflow. Damascus carries the strain of elite mare Perfume II (Badruddin – Lavendula II, by Pharos), a female genetic relative of Nasrullah and Royal Charger. Thus, it makes sense to reinforce the superior mix of Nearco, Blenheim and Mumtaz Mahal with the double of Northern Dancer in BIG BROWN’s pedigree.

BIG BROWN needs mares with a “daughter” of Northern Dancer (especially daughters of More Than Ready or Southern Halo), as they will reinforce superior genes. Mares with Hail to Reason, Seattle Slew, Blushing Groom, and especially Mr. Prospector are ideal test matings. Mr. Prospector will supply a “son” of Champion Native Dancer to any foal sired by BIG BROWN, thus balancing Natalma, “daughter” of Northern Dancer.
Click to expand...
 
There is virtually no similarity in the bloodlines of those three horses until the 4th generation where Northern Dancer is great grandsire of Fox Hunt on the distaff line, and great grandsire of Grand Vent also on his distaff line.

I'd say the historical training methods of these horses, and surfaces they are running/trained on have a lot more to do with what happened to those horses.

I sadly agree about the overuse of fashionable stallions at the top of the gene pool, but survival of the fittest dictates that sound horses tend to be the ones whose genes carry on. Sadler's Wells is a prime example - loads of his progeny carried on running as 5yos, or went jumping. Istabraq springs to mind, and Hurricane Fly is by a son of sadlers Wells. Genes of various horses die out because the offspring don't win.

I googled Hurry On, as i hadn't heard of him before, I think he disappeared from British pedigrees because his stallion sons look to have been sold abroad.

As for the three fatalities, I love my racing, but I can't defend the instance of them re-running the race. It was a disgrace and should not have happened. And I was adamant beforehand that it shouldn't be rerun, so I'm not talking with hindsight.
 
I think sometimes the "fittest survive" gets a little distorted. Big Brown, for instance, ran his best races on steroids, and some sires retire after only a handful of races (Danzig, Nureyev, Lammtarra).

I don't think it's a remotely simple issue, but there does need to be some long-term analysis to see when fatalities have risen or fallen and what seemed to bring that about. I love racing too. And I'm scared it's going to go the way of hunting.
 
I have read some very interesting information that Native Dancer bought about inherent weaknesses into the TB. Basically Native Dancer was a very heavy build on very spindly legs and this has been passed down. Both Native Dancer and Northern Dancer both retired young with tendons that did not stand up.

You only need to look at Kayf Tara and his youngstock are renowned for wonky legs. Ok so they are not Gr1 winners but he is still being regularly used.

Just off on a tangent - I do think its sad that we will probably never see another triple crown winner. I do think for me that its the sign of the ultimate racehorse and they do go down in history.

I love everything about horse racing and like everything there is good and bad.
 
Last edited:
SusannaF said:
I think sometimes the "fittest survive" gets a little distorted. Big Brown, for instance, ran his best races on steroids, and some sires retire after only a handful of races (Danzig, Nureyev, Lammtarra).

I don't think it's a remotely simple issue, but there does need to be some long-term analysis to see when fatalities have risen or fallen and what seemed to bring that about. I love racing too. And I'm scared it's going to go the way of hunting.
Click to expand...

Interesting all those three go back to ND! Did they retire through injury, though?
I thought it was to protect their stud value?

I think that Darley have a lot to answer for with the offer they set up a while back that no breeder would lose their money if they used a Darley stallion. Horse breeding should not be lowered to the supermarket money back guarantees....... that produced so many bad horses from bad mares it was appalling. Then they had to shoot a load of them.

I can't stand the Godolphin operation. At least Coolmore have successfully prevented them having the monopoly in British racing they aimed for.
 
LEC said:
I have read some very interesting information that Native Dancer bought about inherent weaknesses into the TB. Basically Native Dancer was a very heavy build on very spindly legs and this has been passed down. Both Native Dancer and Northern Dancer both retired young with tendons that did not stand up.
Click to expand...

Native Dancer won 21 out of his 22 starts, and raced over 3 seasons? :confused:
 
i agree with LEC those horses are top heavy with problematic limbs, they have speed and the very best of breathing apparatus, but their legs let them down.

looking at the breeding of Sea The Stars he has one direct northern dancer in the fourth generation, he is a big horse, but has very good bone, is well proportioned and does not look top heavy, and although would be impossible to afford would add something to competition horse breeding i think.

if i had a horse that won the derby as a three year old, as lamtarra did, on his first outing i believe, i would'nt race him again.
 
Caledonia said:
Interesting all those three go back to ND! Did they retire through injury, though?
I thought it was to protect their stud value?

I think that Darley have a lot to answer for with the offer they set up a while back that no breeder would lose their money if they used a Darley stallion. Horse breeding should not be lowered to the supermarket money back guarantees....... that produced so many bad horses from bad mares it was appalling. Then they had to shoot a load of them.

I can't stand the Godolphin operation. At least Coolmore have successfully prevented them having the monopoly in British racing they aimed for.
Click to expand...

Danzig had knee problems, Nureyev was knocked out by a virus and they just don't seem to have wanted to test Lammtarra as much as other Derby winners. But there wasn't much chance to work out if Nureyev or Lammtarra were very sound in general as their careers were so short.
 
tristar said:
i agree with LEC those horses are top heavy with problematic limbs, they have speed and the very best of breathing apparatus, but their legs let them down.

looking at the breeding of Sea The Stars he has one direct northern dancer in the fourth generation, he is a big horse, but has very good bone, is well proportioned and does not look top heavy, and although would be impossible to afford would add something to competition horse breeding i think.
Click to expand...

Sea The Stars has no less ND than any of those that broke down at Meydan. And if you are agreeing with LEC, he has Native Dance 5th generation. So that makes him exactly what you are arguing against? :confused:

There is NOTHING wrong with Northern Dancer, he was a small wiry tough horse - he won 14 from 18 - there is no way he'd have had the influence he has if his offspring weren't tough and sound. Also, with other horses, don't confuse early retiral to stud to protect the stallion value with retiral through unsoundness.
 
Northern Dancer was a good horse & tough by today's standards; there is nothing wrong with him or Sadlers Wells but they have been over used. Ok Phalaris line horses were used a lot & their descendants like Nearco; so was St Simon. when this was happening there were other bloodlines available & horses could be sourced from overseas. Now racing & breeding have become so global this is less possible.
Hurry On's stock were stayers, St Leger & Ascot Gold Cup winners who didn't sire the precocious fashionable stock required. Writers on breeding were aware of this trend as being dangerous for the breed in the 1950s (Read John Hislop).

I actually put some of the blame at Coolmore's door in flooding the market with Northern Dancer stallions.
It isn't healthy to have the industry dominated by two operations; flat racing has become a bit boring when runners for the big races are only owned by two owners. However the days of the old owner breeder have long gone.

I also wonder if synthetic surfaces, interval training, treadmills & modern cubes could have a leaning on fatalities. In the old days yearlings were finished in limestone areas to promote healthy bone, big stud owner like Lord Derby & the Aga Khan had nurseries in Ireland or Yorkshire for this reason. Does anyone know if this practice still occurs? suppose it's all supplements now, but they might just not be as good as the real thing, my old GP said that eating three oranges was better than taking a vitamin c supplement.
 
A fair few horses retire to stud to protect their futures in the breeding sheds. That is why most flat good flat horses rarely see a 5yo season, not because their legs went wrong.

You then also get the likes of George Washington who proved infertile and so Holy Roman Emperor was retired from racing as a 2yo to take over his stud duties as he was the closet living, entire, good relative. We never got the chance to see his true brilliance on the track. A 3yo year between HRE and Teofilo would have been mouth watering!
 
Honeylight, i visited the aga khan's stud, where i saw sea the stars, his bone was what impressed me, and the fact he is very impressive without being top heavy, so maybe that region, kildare, is why the stud is situated there, on limestone like the blue grass regions of usa, not sure though.!
 
tristar said:
EKW try being a highly sensitive and intelligent animal that is totally aware of what is happening, then to lose your life in painfull and tragic circumstances, very young, when you have personally experienced this you will be qualified to speak for the animals.

if a pony hurts itself in the field here, it will be dealt with immediately and quietly, there is always someone here, horses are our life and their welfare comes before all else.

sadly a large part of the problem is that they are so young, they have not yet gained their full skeletal strength, are in a state of growth and therefore somewhat unbalanced, maybe this contributes.
Click to expand...

Tristar as you ingnored a previous question re: your above claims let me ask again.

So your ponies will be dealt with IMMEDIATELY if it hurts itself in your field? How? How do you know IMMEDIATELY it injures itself? Do you have someone stand watch 24 / 7? Day and night? Or do your ponies only ever go out when there is someone available to stand supervising them? And your vet must live and work from your premises to be available immediately too!
 
cefyl said:
Tristar as you ingnored a previous question re: your above claims let me ask again.

So your ponies will be dealt with IMMEDIATELY if it hurts itself in your field? How? How do you know IMMEDIATELY it injures itself? Do you have someone stand watch 24 / 7? Day and night? Or do your ponies only ever go out when there is someone available to stand supervising them? And your vet must live and work from your premises to be available immediately too!
Click to expand...

In fairness to Tristar it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there could be someone always around when horses/ponies are turned out and if the poster has their own gun no reason why they could not put their own animal down if necessary. It wouldn't be common but could be the case
 
Can we go back to the breeding debate? as I am woefully uninformed on this and finding the commentary fasinating! From a purely personal perspective, when last at Ascot sales there were a lot of poor confirmation types but they seemed to sell well by record. A keen racing friend had shares in what was a good racehorse, but boy was it poorly put together and broke down early. I did say that purely from an equine viewpoint, he would be better off if his syndicate went for form AND confirmation as horse would always have a second career (as his syndicate like to give their horses another life after racing).

Many times when humans breed to improve we end up having to go back several steps. Perhaps, after reading the more well informed commentaries on this post, that would seem to be the case now with TB's
 
amage said:
In fairness to Tristar it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there could be someone always around when horses/ponies are turned out and if the poster has their own gun no reason why they could not put their own animal down if necessary. It wouldn't be common but could be the case
Click to expand...

And you are from what planet ??? Even at night they are "on watch"?

I or another person "is always around" here at our UK home or at our property in the USA but no one stands watch over each field that has stock in it, we have security cameras on all gates but it cannot possibly scan every section of field and be watched all day, there will always be a lag. The OP implied that even at the top racecourses they cannot respond as quickly to humanly destroy an animal as they will at their own property which is a preposterous presumption.

Even the greatest meet unfortunate fates when turned out and may not be noticed immediately. The late and great Blue Hors Matine springs to mind (sadly).
 
Honeylight said:
I also wonder if synthetic surfaces, interval training, treadmills & modern cubes could have a leaning on fatalities. In the old days yearlings were finished in limestone areas to promote healthy bone, big stud owner like Lord Derby & the Aga Khan had nurseries in Ireland or Yorkshire for this reason. Does anyone know if this practice still occurs? suppose it's all supplements now, but they might just not be as good as the real thing, my old GP said that eating three oranges was better than taking a vitamin c supplement.
Click to expand...


The TB history book I'm reading quoted the Duke of Cavendish in the seventeenth century. He remarks on the incredible bone density of the kind of Arab, Turk and Barb horses that are the ancestors of the modern TB and said that by comparison, Flemish horses had terrible legs.

Not sure if that's of use or not, but I wonder how much of that is nature or nurture.
 
cefyl said:
And you are from what planet ??? Even at night they are "on watch"?

I or another person "is always around" here at our UK home or at our property in the USA but no one stands watch over each field that has stock in it, we have security cameras on all gates but it cannot possibly scan every section of field and be watched all day, there will always be a lag. The OP implied that even at the top racecourses they cannot respond as quickly to humanly destroy an animal as they will at their own property which is a preposterous presumption.

Even the greatest meet unfortunate fates when turned out and may not be noticed immediately. The late and great Blue Hors Matine springs to mind (sadly).
Click to expand...

eh you don't have to be rude to me....I said it was a possibility not that what I said was fact. I merely offered an opinion. This forum is getting worse by the minute
 
cefyl said:
Not being rude, just realistic. And as you, an opinion.
Click to expand...

Asking me what planet am I on just because you disagree with what i wrote is rude! And reread what I said....I at no stage said it was a definite, in fact described it as not beyond the realms of possibility ie not likely but certainly possible! I do feel it is highly unlikely a horse would be sent on its way quicker at home than at the racecourse but it is not impossible!!
 
Luci07 said:
Can we go back to the breeding debate? as I am woefully uninformed on this and finding the commentary fasinating! From a purely personal perspective, when last at Ascot sales there were a lot of poor confirmation types but they seemed to sell well by record. A keen racing friend had shares in what was a good racehorse, but boy was it poorly put together and broke down early. I did say that purely from an equine viewpoint, he would be better off if his syndicate went for form AND confirmation as horse would always have a second career (as his syndicate like to give their horses another life after racing).

Many times when humans breed to improve we end up having to go back several steps. Perhaps, after reading the more well informed commentaries on this post, that would seem to be the case now with TB's
Click to expand...


When discussing breeding I am always reminded by what an old trainer told me about horses being blown up because they are closely related to a very good horse: "I am a fine upstanding citizen who contributes to the community, my brother is in jail for fraud, my sister in jail for murder and don't even ask about the cousins!!". He was saying it in jest but it did open my eyes....when buying tbs the OH goes for what he likes in the flesh, pedigree is important but the mare line is far more important than the sire. There are a couple of sires we stay away from if they have known issues eg breeding wind issues. that being said we don't have the huge budgets to buy the big money horses so tend to go for the lesser known pedigrees that we like the look of! So far (touch wood;-)) it's working.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top