RIP Fox Hunt

amage said:
When discussing breeding I am always reminded by what an old trainer told me about horses being blown up because they are closely related to a very good horse: "I am a fine upstanding citizen who contributes to the community, my brother is in jail for fraud, my sister in jail for murder and don't even ask about the cousins!!". He was saying it in jest but it did open my eyes....when buying tbs the OH goes for what he likes in the flesh, pedigree is important but the mare line is far more important than the sire. There are a couple of sires we stay away from if they have known issues eg breeding wind issues. that being said we don't have the huge budgets to buy the big money horses so tend to go for the lesser known pedigrees that we like the look of! So far (touch wood;-)) it's working.
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That is a very interesting & wise theory! Conformation is so important; remember the horse by Northern Dancer that Sheik Mohammed spent a fortune out bidding Coolmore for in the 1980s Snaafi Dancer. That one had flat feet, club foot & small ears....it never raced!
I had a quick look at the pedigrees of the horses that died; Foxhunt has any number of crosses to Northern Dancer & Native Dancer. Grand Vent is in bred to Northern Dancer at the 4th & 3rd remove, he was sired by Sirrocco who has some stout & solid blood on his top line & Bronze Cannon has three crosses of Northern Dancer & four of Native Dancer.
It is practically impossible to find a stallion in the UK or Ireland that hasn't any Northern Dancer.
 
EKW said:
And this is why Coolmore, Godolphin ad Juddmont should take note and come and pay an absolute fortune for some of my own wee beasties! :D

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2012/01/200.shtml

Proper British Shetlands - not that daft dainty American one in the picture!
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I loved this!

The TB history I'm reading was written before this was known. As I read through all the "modern" theories about TB origin I want to say, "IT'S SHETLANDS! SHETLANDS!"

I wonder what a scaled up shetland would look like and how it would move? ;)
 
well they do have shetland grand national races at some of the big shows, complete with little jockeys in colours etc. one of the most entertaining and cute events, and no-one gets injured or killed.
 
EKW said:
Try wired to the moon on adrenaline! Feeling no pain and pumped full of drugs before they can begin to feel any! Injury assessed, decision made and horse either being trucked off to horsepital or put down within 10mins.

VS

Pony in field, galloping along, breaks leg - how long until they get checked again and someone notices? How long until the vet gets there? How long until damage assessment is done? How long until the decision is made?

And people say racing is cruel.
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EKW I agree with you on this having seen a horse suffer for at the very least over an hour waiting for a vet to come to end its suffering. It was not known at the time that the horse had a broken leg though, it wasn't obvious. It had fractured its humerus and the weather was awful, very, very cold which would have added to the pain as he was shivering with the cold and shock combined. Owner and I did everything we could for the horse until the vet arrived. It was very sad and not least because I did not dare give any bute in case it masked anything. In hindsight wish I had now to take off the edge.
If this had been a horse in a race it would have been dealt with in a very short space of time.
Yes the adrenaline is pumping which masks a lot of -if not all the pain- which you do not get with ponio at home in the field.
Accidents can happen anytime, anywhere, but in the case at Cheltenham and the Cross Country course I blame the going and the same in Dubai where 3 horses died in one race.
Too much of a coincidence that as the pace was not strong in the re-run ( didn't see the first running).
You have mentioned conformation and its affect on racehorses, yes it is a factor.
However I too have witnessed more fatalities on both codes in the last ten years than I ever have.
I have watched racing for nearly 30 years, worked in the industry and have friends who work in various jobs throughout the industry, even at the top level.
I have been accused quite wrongly of being anti racing ( not by you) which is laughable. There is no one quite committed to the sport as I. I live and breathe it. In fact when I worked in racing my holidays were worked around racing, not the other way around and that is for someone who was being paid peanuts for their job and loyalty.
I did it for the love of racing and to be near horses which I admire immensely.
If I have something to say about the sport either positive or negative I will say it.
No other equine sport looks after their horses as well as in racing in my opinion.
However there is room for improvement as no one is perfect.
I too have also mentioned breeding and its effect on the sport.
There is too much dainty and speedy flat racing pedigree being bred into National Hunt racing for instance. My own opinion is to supply the demand for horses to be ready to race earlier over jumps. Very few people want or can afford store horses these days.
We have lost a lot of the lords and ladies on the National Hunt scene and many of their children don't seem to be interested in taking over.
Apart from a few business magnates like Wylie, Hales and McManus ( first ones to spring to mind) there are not as many owners these days in that code who can afford to stick their horses in fields for a few years to grow and mature.
Racing partnerships, clubs and syndicates are on the increase. They want horses that can run now, not race a few years down the line.
Forget the likes of Elite Racing club, they have been around a while, have their own breeding programme and have enough paying members to cover costs.
I miss the good old fashioned chasing types I used to see over jumps. Even many of the hurdlers are changing with the increase in smaller, lighter framed individuals who you know will struggle in size, heart and legs to become a chaser.
In the past many of the hurdle races were seen as a prelude to the following seasons novice chase campaign, although the hurdles that they have at tracks like Haydock perhaps seem better suited to the job ( being like mini fences, rather than flights).
As for the flat it is an area I am not as well versed in as jump racing is my passion although I do still follow it.
Breeding certainly has a part to play and I think that horses with poor conformation and a poor racing record should be left out of the breeding game.
You cannot make a good racehorse by mixing a substandard mare with an amazing stallion, or vice versa, in my opinion. Odd flukes do occur though, but generally speaking no.
A quick look through the racecard on any given day and you will see low grade handicaps, sellers and claimers at most meetings.
Which horses fill these races, mostly poor ones?
Horses getting on in years and past their best, horses returning from layoffs/injuries and what I would refer to as 'chaff' horses.
Yes one could argue these races have a place in racing on one hand but in the other you have to question are these races being run as a filler on racecards or to supply a need for demand of poor and low grade horses?
The breeding of racehorses seriously needs to be looked at. Most of the problems in racing stem from this, over production and the production of inferior stock.
 
Thank you for the considered contribution, Fantasy World.


One thing that puzzles me. Surely it's common knowledge that most horses will never earn enough to break even with the expense of keeping them. If that's the case, why not leave 'em in a field a while longer? Or race them less?

Or is it all about betting or owners with unrealistic expectations or overambitious trainers?
 
I think a lot of the new, younger generation of owners are the ones that want instant results. I would say that a 30yo that has made a quick buck and bought a racehorse to show off is one of these people - instant results, instant popularity. Then say a 60-70yo has saved up and bought a horse to enjoy in their retirement, they are more likely to wait, be patient and enjoy their racing much more than the yoingsters. Unfortunately we seem to be getting much more of the former and not enough of the latter these days.
 
As to the breeding - as much as I love the Coolmore stud they have flooded the market with the same lines. And then between them and Godolphin being so pig headed and not crossing their lines over they are now both pretty much line breeding within themselves.
 
well i was thinking about very young trainers, not wishing to insult anyone or deny their success, but i was wondering how can they have the experience and comprehensive knowledge necessary?, it takes most people a lifetime to learn about horses, unless of course you are born to it, and cope with the all important finances and pressure of giving owners a result, not to mention selection of horses bought at auction etc. they can't all be like Aiden O'brien.
 
EKW said:
I think a lot of the new, younger generation of owners are the ones that want instant results. I would say that a 30yo that has made a quick buck and bought a racehorse to show off is one of these people - instant results, instant popularity. Then say a 60-70yo has saved up and bought a horse to enjoy in their retirement, they are more likely to wait, be patient and enjoy their racing much more than the yoingsters. Unfortunately we seem to be getting much more of the former and not enough of the latter these days.
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Trainers will ask the owner what type he wants, and price to pay.
So a footballer might want a small syndicated two year old to run several times in a year at minor courses. The social side will be of greater importance than the quality of the race.
An older more experienced owner might want something to run at Royal Ascot, be prepared for failure, and yet pay out a fair amount of cash, plus train at a top yard with the best facilities.
 
tristar said:
well i was thinking about very young trainers, not wishing to insult anyone or deny their success, but i was wondering how can they have the experience and comprehensive knowledge necessary?, it takes most people a lifetime to learn about horses, unless of course you are born to it, and cope with the all important finances and pressure of giving owners a result, not to mention selection of horses bought at auction etc. they can't all be like Aiden O'brien.
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They usually have it in their family lines, maybe riding out from their teenage years, pupil apprentice trainer in top yards and maybe worked in the US or Australia.
To get a licence to train they have to go through various hoops and hurdles, including business and practical courses, plus have a letter of intent from a number of owners, plus enough cash to see them through the first year or so, and premises lined up. Then they need good results in their first year to pull in fresh owners.
Read Paul Nicholls autobiography for a few NH pointers.
Some trainers [like ex-footballers] take up training later in life, they will need good staff to help them through the first few years, a good portion of their previous earnings, and loads of sporting contacts.
 
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SusannaF said:
Thank you for the considered contribution, Fantasy World.


One thing that puzzles me. Surely it's common knowledge that most horses will never earn enough to break even with the expense of keeping them. If that's the case, why not leave 'em in a field a while longer? Or race them less?

Or is it all about betting or owners with unrealistic expectations or overambitious trainers?
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I would say with the latter comment it is a combination of both. Some owners really don't realise that they have essentially a tin of dog food on four legs. A bit harsh I know but true. With some horses you don't know their true potential until they are raced as that is when they are truly tested, but surely the horse has shown some ability at home either up the gallops or over the schooling jumps or hurdles?
However there are horses racing every day that will never amount to much and at best will become a good hack for someone.
Only when the trainer and/or owner acknowledges this do they eventually leave racing.
I have friends who own racehorses. Some still own them whilst others have in the past.
They have always seemed cheerful about the horses even when I am sure they know they will not be a worldbeater.
It is not always the end product that matters to them but the taking part. In other words the prestige of owning a racehorse even if that amounts to owning a leg, ear or other part of the body. Knowing that you will be able to turn up at the track, walk into the owner and trainers bar. Stand in the parade ring in front of crowds of people who have come to see your horse race. At times it even allows you entry to premier meetings if your horse is good enough or your trainer is bold enough to run.
Not necessarily snobbery, although I have met owners who have acted with that attitude at the races, usually women in fact. Well off gentlemen have been just that, very polite on the whole, but cannot say all their wives have acted the same. Perhaps it is just the occasion that gets to them or that the horse becomes yet another status symbol alongside their fancy clothes, expensive handbags and stand out cars.
I am not stereoptyping, this is true! Seen and heard with my own eyes when working in racing.
As for leaving horses in a field a while longer or racing less it depends on the age of the horse, the code it is racing over, its sex, who owns it and what (if any) its targets are?
Most flat horses start at 2. If they are exceptionally good they will win graded races and the lesser ones nurseries ( or handicaps for 2 year olds). Those horses who will excel at distances of a mile and upwards and if good enough will be aimed at races like the guineas, derby and oaks as 3 year olds. The lesser individuals, unless they have earned a ridiculous rating well above their ability at that stage will contest handicaps for 3 year old and above.
The number of races depends largely on their ability and what they will be aimed for.
If the horse is a decent handicapper for instance but the target is later in the year or even for its career as a 4 year old then chances are it will be entered into races when not fully fit, over the wrong trip/ground or too high a grade to get its rating to a winnable mark.
This does not factor in any potential injuries or sniffles the horse may endure that season.
The 3 year old classic contenders are generally quite lightly raced since they want the horse to have enough experience but still be on the upgrade before its target of say the guineas or derby. Usually any races which come after that are an afterthought if the horse was not good enough, or it was the wrong trip for it.
Betting does come into it as I have met very few owners who don't bet. Even if they didn't then you can guarantee either a stable hand, good friend or relative will enjoy a flutter on the horse.
It can be easier to achieve more winnings as an owner through betting than it is in prize money when you consider the average prize money for races less the usual expenses it concurs.
Take the owner of Son of Flicka who won almost a million in betting on his horse when it won the Coral Cup hurdle at this year's Cheltenham Festival, compared to the prize money of just over £39,000 ( before expenses).
I personally know of owners winning at available odds of 66/1 on their horse and pocketing a fair bit. Betting public none the wiser as horse back after a lay off, but connections knew the horse had not missed a beat and well handicapped. Top jockey booked and horse romped home, I backed the horse myself as I had seen it at the yard whilst it was not racing and just coming back into work. I had a feeling about it but the owner had more than a feeling since it was his horse.
I would always argue until I am blue in the face that without betting there would be no racing since owners and those connected with the horses on the whole like to have a bet, besides the racing public.
So betting does play a part in how often horses run in my view, particularly when handicappers are concerned. Of course owners and trainers plan a coup, it doesn't always come off as the horse could have an off day, slip up/fall/get brought down, be badly drawn, not enough rain ( needs it soft) or too much rain ( need it good or faster).
Owner/trainer Barney Curley is perhaps the best known gambling owner of our lifetime and the coups he has landed. JP Mcmanus over jumps is another who is not afraid to land big bets either.
Handicaps are manipulated and so can races be too so as to increase the odds of a horse next time it runs. With the cameras and technology available today it is becoming harder but still it goes on. I have seen horses particularly on the all weather purposely boxed in on the rails and unable to get out for a run. Some jump tracks have blind spots at fences where a horse could be pulled up or jockey ship off and before anyone questions that comment, check out racing threads and see how many times you will read people say that jockeys have had a very light seat.
There have also been high profile cases involving jockeys on both codes with regard to race fixing and this was made more profitable once there were markets in which horses could be layed to lose. If people 'in the know' knew a horse quite prominent in the betting could not win then there is a high chance of making money on it to lose and most likely in some cases more than would be made by backing it to win. Easy money, only snag comes when the horse is a lucky winner ie a horse falling or pulling up in front, or favourite not firing and it being too obvious for the horse to then lose a race.
I have seen a lot of racing, I have recorded many years of it too and I have seen races in which I have questioned either the winners ability to win such a race or of horses that should have won not winning and there have not always been plausible excuses.
cont ......
 
As for national hunt in Britain then as I think may have been stated by EKW either on this thread or another most start their career proper at 4 or 5.
It can be either in a national hunt flat race, novice/maiden hurdle or novice/maiden chase.
There are some juvenile hurdle races in the UK for 3 year olds which are primarily used by either flat raced horses or those with a flat pedigree.
Some horses entering the National hunt scene ( even in bumpers) may have already raced between the flags at point to points, the majority of which coming from Irish meetings.
Horses over the jumps have many options available to them. Those which start in bumpers (NHF) may decide to stay in that sphere the whole season or progress to hurdles/chases later on.
Some horses which start a novice hurdle campaign may stick to the novice route, go handicapping ( once rated) or switch to chasing.
Novice chasers again may stick to that route, go handicapping or even revert to hurdles again ( that season or in the future) either handicapping or novice hurdling depending on if they have already won a hurdle race and when.
The rules to handicapping are similar to the flat with 2 mile hurdlers being about the same I would say as 6 furlong horses in their ability to be able to turned out quickly again to race.
3 mile horses find it more taxing and so do not run as often.
A horse could rattle up a sequence over hurdles or fences either as a novice or handicap.
Trainer Martin Pipe was well known for this back in the day and also for turning out horses quickly again before the handicapper could re-assess ( before 7 days) if they believed that the horse would end up being a lower rating with a penalty on its back compared to the new BHB rating.
This would affect how many times a horse would run. If a horse had a decent chance of completing a hat trick or four timer, especially at the start of a season over jumps ( when a lot of big guns don't play their hands) then they would run them, sometimes in quick succession. Ground is also a key factor, hence why you will see some NH horses out in September/October and then do not resurface until the following spring as they need better ground. The big trainers tend to bring out their better horses towards the middle of November onwards as there are usually good races on the calendar then across all levels, and juice in the ground is guaranteed.
Likewise some horses do not make their debut or seasonal debut over jumps until November and then race up until April at the latest ( or earlier if we have a dry spring).
This happens in the flat game too with horses who turn out in March and April being the ones who usually re-appear in late autumn with some juice. Although AW racing complicates matters a tad as some horses can adapt to turf and fibresand equally and so can race as often as their bodies will allow them too.
Some trainers also use AW racing for their jumpers too in order to get them fit. Twice now the tracks have put on flat races for jumpers when we had bad weather and abandonments. Horses that would otherwise been at home and either in a pool, or up the fibresand ( if they had it) were now racing as the turf tracks were frozen off or else under snow.
I think I will stop there but I hope the post has offered a few angles upon which to consider as possible answers for your questions?
 
Considering the sad subject of the initial posting this has turned into a delightful and informative thread. Had we had the anti racing posters on here we would never have got the educating and thought provoking posts .
 
Dobiegirl said:
Considering the sad subject of the initial posting this has turned into a delightful and informative thread. Had we had the anti racing posters on here we would never have got the educating and thought provoking posts .
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Agreed. I feel I have nothing to add to the discussion, but have found it fascinating reading. :)
 
Dobiegirl said:
Considering the sad subject of the initial posting this has turned into a delightful and informative thread. Had we had the anti racing posters on here we would never have got the educating and thought provoking posts .
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alliersv1 said:
Agreed. I feel I have nothing to add to the discussion, but have found it fascinating reading. :)
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^^^ agreed. i was flicking through the thread expecting to see fisty cuffs and a right ding dong about 'too-race' or 'not-to-race', but instead was wondefully enlightened about the merits or otherwise of TB racing breeding lines.
 
Have enjoyed reading the posts on the horses breeding,hadn't realised how thin the bloodlines have become,but what you are really saying is that it all comes down to money either way.
 
If we look at fairly recent history a lot of intense inbreeding occurred in the racing empire of Marcel Boussac, who in the 1940s & 50s was France's leading owner.
Here are links to some pedigrees some may find interesting:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10247690
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10130843
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=769217

Coronation V the last of these was an outstanding filly who was second in the Epsom Oaks & won the Prix D l'arc de Triomphe. There were high hopes for her as a broodmare but she was infertile & didn't conceive at all. There is dispute over whether this was to do with her close inbreeding.
This policy of line breeding within a stud worked well for Boussac for a while but eventually the quality of the foals was compromised & the winners ceased to flow. I don't recall anyone doing such intense incestuous breeding in more recent times. However the generally shrinking gene pool is not a good thing; if Boussac had wanted he could have sourced out-crosses at this time, now it is difficult.
In NH breeding past winners have been mainly outcrossed but now with the introduction of cast off Northern Dancer stallions into the mix many are in bred to him. This might well be a real problem in the future as regards soundness.
 
a sigh of relief....coming onto a thread about a racehorse and not having ex racing people jumping down your throat for loving and working in the sport! keep it up people! its all about educating those that dont know about the sport (yes people claim they know what racing is about...but do they?) unfortunately northern dancer is in too many bloodlines - as a result of the coolmore and darley feud, but having done a dissertation on inbreeding, it is not as bad as people make out...
 
yep agreed has gone on for years but at least its becoming more recognised now...am not at home at the moment but will send you some info! was a really interesting diss to do!
 
I haven't read all the replies so sorry if I am repeating but do you remember that programme last year where they dissected the racehorse? A lady that was interviewed said they couldn't get any faster as we had now peaked and skeletal weakness would come now,. (Not her exact words, but her gist).
 
katina said:
a sigh of relief....coming onto a thread about a racehorse and not having ex racing people jumping down your throat for loving and working in the sport! keep it up people! its all about educating those that dont know about the sport (yes people claim they know what racing is about...but do they?) unfortunately northern dancer is in too many bloodlines - as a result of the coolmore and darley feud, but having done a dissertation on inbreeding, it is not as bad as people make out...
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I'd be interested in seeing the dissertation!

There was a report last year which said that inbreeding in TBs was not as bad as it is in pedigree dogs but that there was a danger of that in the future.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wondermonkey/2011/11/bred-to-destruction.shtml

The study showed that there had been a small but significant (i.e. real) increase in inbreeding over the past 40 years, and that most of the increase was from the mid 1990s to present.

“Which is the time period during which many things have changed in the breeding of Thoroughbred horses,” says Dr Binns. “In the 1960s it was usual for each stallion to cover 40-50 mares per season, in the mid-1990s this number jumped to 150+.”

Nowadays, high quality stallions are also “shuttled” around the world to cover mares, for example, being sent to the southern hemisphere to breed with mares during the quiet season for breeding in the northern hemisphere.

This in part is to meet the modern demand for producing yearlings that sell for high prices at auction rather than the previous breeding goal of producing superior racehorses.

Overall that means fewer stallions are siring a greater proportion of offspring.

The current trend toward greater inbreeding is “worrisome”, say the scientists in the journal Animal Genetics, which has published their research.

Dr Binns says he doesn’t believe the inbreeding is, at the moment, greatly contributing to the number of fractures sustained by racehorses, and there is no evidence it directly led to the fractures of Eight Belles, Barbaro or Rewilding.

But he suspects it is contributing to the failure rate of pregnancy among breeding Thoroughbreds. So called “reproductive depression” is one of the first signs of inbreeding problems seen in populations of animals.
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Yes Susan I read that article & the comments are very interesting. It seems I am not alone in thinking that losing the Blandford, Gainsborough & Hurry On lines was something of a disaster.
One of the difficulties is the racing of horses using diuretics & painkillers in the USA; there are two many USA bloodlines in pedigrees.
This has been a most interesting thread.
Last Good Friday I saw Foxhunt at the Middleham Open Day, very sad he should have lost his life in such a tragic manner.
 
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